RE: The Confederate Flag (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 7:58:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Actually, Fort Sumter was a federal fort, and therefore wasn't Southern soil.  Southern war planners decided, as a matter of strategy, that it had to be one of the very first targets.  Otherwise it could have been used to help blockade Charleston.

You know--general comment now--one thing people seem to forget when they argue that the Civil War was about states' rights, preserving the Union, and so on, is the reason why the South seceded.  The reason was slavery, above all the growing consensus in the South that with one free state after another being admitted to the Union, eventually they'd lose all political clout if they remained.  They may have couched that as a states'-rights issue, or a brazen assault on their way of life, blah blah blah, but if it weren't for the slavery dispute, there never would have been a Civil War.


If the South had won this war then they would just be reclaiming their fort on their soil,... since in their minds they were not a part of the Union anymore,... who allows hostile foriegn troops on their soil? Splitting hairs if you ask me.




Lordandmaster -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 8:22:57 AM)

I think it's worthwhile to remember how and why the Civil War started.  The first shot was fired by the South; the target was a federal fort out in the bay overlooking Charleston; and the reason was strategic, not ideological.

By the same token, as I've said, I think it's worthwhile to remember why the Southern states seceded.  Why West Virginia refused to join its eastern neighbors, for that matter.  Why Maryland was fractured.  All this stuff is well documented.  With all the emotion and sanctimoniousness that usually accompanies the subject, facts have a way of melting into whatever one would have preferred the facts to be.




juliaoceania -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 10:15:03 AM)

I have no pony in the race LaM, I am a Westerner... the whole thing never made a bit of sense to me...lol

I will say the North of the time was just as repugnant with its child labor and using people like cogs in the industrial wheel. You know those poor people were less valuable than slaves, one would die or lose a limb at work, well you just replaced them with another, and you had no responsiblity for their welfare at all, you did not have to worry about what they wore, or ate, or where they slept

Slavery is wrong, wage slavery is just as wrong




NastyDaddy -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 11:35:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

... if it weren't for the slavery dispute, there never would have been a Civil War.


It would seem there's been one going on with North Carolina ever since over "King Tobacco".  Since tobacco was (and still is) a prime money crop all over the south, one could surmise the fight over slavery was really a side bar to the real issue of tobacco. Slavery was in fact a cheaper way to produce tobacco... and cotton for northern northern textile mills, grains and corn for northern distilled alcohol producers, etc.

I'd guess with the possibility of alternate trade routes from southern ports, or the possibility of establishing many production facilities in the south to avoid shipping logistics, the fear of losing much needed commerce also played a role, but that's just me.  

Fort Sumter's purpose in Charleston harbor as a Union Fort was likely for much more then merely making sure the slave vessels from Africa paid their Union dues and tariffs before unloading their human slave cargos to the Charleston slave markets.  

North Carolina has long prospered through the advocacy and use of tobacco.  Many southern states are in the network, all funneling the deadly cargo to NC cigarette factories for preparation and distribution to points worldwide.

The north also profitted in many ways from slavery, and were quite used to turning a blind eye to the scurge they too also profitted immensely from.  One could easily say there was indeed a big concern over southern states suceding form the union and establishing their own commerce trade routes... away from the port authorities and tariffs imposed by the well established northern trade routes. There was a lot of money and control at stake besides the often "overlooked scurge of slavery". 




juliaoceania -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 11:48:17 AM)

The Emancipation Proclammation only applied to the states in rebellion if memory serves me correctly

Despite this expansive wording, the Emancipation Proclamation was limited in many ways. It applied only to states that had seceded from the Union, leaving slavery untouched in the loyal border states. It also expressly exempted parts of the Confederacy that had already come under Northern control. Most important, the freedom it promised depended upon Union military victory.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/

On edit.. it did serve me correctly





Lordandmaster -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 4:46:55 PM)

No argument here.  Neither side in the Civil War can be expected to live up to what we consider standards of decency nearly 150 years later (although we are all fortunate that the North won).  But saying that the Civil War wasn't about slavery is like having a piano concerto without a piano.  You can read the reasons that Southern politicians gave for seceding.  It was always reducible to the issue of the slave power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I will say the North of the time was just as repugnant with its child labor and using people like cogs in the industrial wheel. You know those poor people were less valuable than slaves, one would die or lose a limb at work, well you just replaced them with another, and you had no responsiblity for their welfare at all, you did not have to worry about what they wore, or ate, or where they slept




Noah -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 5:03:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Slavery is wrong, wage slavery is just as wrong


By "wage slavery" I figure you mean the extremely unbalanced labor practices which prevailed widely in the time in question.

This plight subjected a person to working for pay and for hours and under conditions which you and I today would find intolerable.

The plight of the actual slave, on the other hand, was such that what we would call kidnapping was legal where they were concerned. What we would call rape was legal where they were concerned. As I understand things--and I count on our history experts to correct any errors here--what we would call assault and even what we would call murder could perpetrated on a slave by his or her master without any possibility that that master would face the sort of justice he would have faced for doing the same things to a "free" person.

Now if even a single one of these points is historically accurate how can you with a straight face claim that the labor practices prevalent in the North (and for all I know prevalent among the poor classes of free peple in the South as well) at that time we no less wrong than legal ownership of one person by another?





juliaoceania -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 5:39:12 PM)

Children working and being maimed because their little fingers and hands fit into places that an adult one wouldn't was standard practice. Often children would die or be permanently disfigured. Women were treated as chattel in both regions. We had no right to vote, no property rights and no right to our children, Men could use us as they saw fit and abuse us anyway they liked if no one would fight for our honor (and believe me, many women had no one to fight for them). There were slaves in the North too, do not forget that.

In the South when there were truly dangerous things to be done, like work in the swamps to drain them or whatnot, white men (mostly Irish) were employed for such tasks because of the danger of damage to a slave was too great to risk, they had value.. and as one of my history professors pointed out (he is Irish) "A dumb Mick was expendable because if he got bitten by a poisonous snake or killed in the mines the worst that would happen is that you didn't have to pay him at the end of the day".

In factories all over the world literal slavery still takes place. You do not have to be kidnapped and forced from your home to be a slave, as most American slaves were actually born here. I am not downplaying for one instant the cruelty that was slavery and the inability not to move out of that station. Oh hell, my kind got the legal right to vote last, and I always say the only people more oppressed than women are my Black sisters.




TreSwank -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 5:47:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Oh hell, my kind got the legal right to vote last, and I always say the only people more oppressed than women are my Black sisters.


       I would actually venture to say that "effeminate" gay men have been oppressed, killed, and reviled more than women.




juliaoceania -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 5:49:55 PM)

Look at the statistics even today about violence against women and then get back to me..k?




TreSwank -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 5:59:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Look at the statistics even today about violence against women and then get back to me..k?


First of all, common sense would dictate that there are more women than gay men. Historically, women have been oppressed, abused, and mistreated by the patriarchy..............while gay men have been through pogroms that made the Salem Witch Trials look like a JOKE.  Historically, in most major world religions, homosexuality was considered an ABOMINATION, punishable by DEATH. 

The worst thing that most women have to face when walking through the doors of any random, local dive bar is constant harrassment by old skeeve-balls and horny bruthas, while "queeny" gay men have to CONSTANTLY watch their asses when they travel outside of their own clique, for fear of getting beaten and killed by dumb-rednecks, or ghetto trash. 

I'm not gonna argue that women don't have it bad, julia, but from earliest recorded history, to the Holocaust, to present times (even with the recent homo-chic of the last six or seven years), I do possess the testicular fortitude to say that the queens have had it worse than anyone.




juliaoceania -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 6:30:39 PM)

Greek and Roman culture had little problem with Homosexuality, it has not always been considered an abomination by every religion or culture. I do not want to get into a pissing contest about this group or that group being oppressed. It is frankly not productive, my point is that there are all kinds of oppression in the world




TreSwank -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 6:42:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Greek and Roman culture had little problem with Homosexuality,


You're right, but you're only half-correct.  Homosexuality was tolerated in regards to pederasty and intercourse between masculine guys..............but the effeminate gay man was REVILED, especially by Romans, who considered the lack of "machismo" in a male to be indicative of a penchant to disregard civil duties.  A common misconception, spread by historical movies and scholarly works is that gayness was completely tolerated in Greek and Roman times, which is FAR FROM THE TRUTH. Gayness was tolerated if both men were butch, or if one participant was an older, well-established citizen, and the other was a teenager needing "guidance".

I know that every "oppressed" group likes to believe that their specific portion of the population has been hated more than any other............but I'm making this comment as a disinterested party.

But this is all beside the point.  Can't we all just agree that julia is the hottest little thing in Cali, and be done with it?




juliaoceania -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 6:51:53 PM)

Hadrian loved his effeminate boy. I would have to see what your sources are before I could concur on this point.

And one other point... it is very wrong to judge my heart condition based upon a message board and inappropriate




TreSwank -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 6:54:39 PM)

And I shall indeed cite them..........after I return from Earnie's Cafe (about eight or nine beers from now.)




JohnSteed1967 -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 7:05:42 PM)

     Well Time for a Southerner with a family History to weigh in. My family at no time ever bought, sold, traded, bartered, rented, or had any other connection with any slave and or slaves.

   YET, During Sherman's so called "March to the Sea" General Sherman's troops took time out to burn out a little dirt farmer and kill his cow and steal every chicken the man had. That was my great, great, great grand father Levi and his family's farm. SO you sit there and tell me how that the Civil War was about Cotton, or Tobacco, or Slave's or Politics.

   Go Right Ahead, tell me how southerners should be ashamed of the EVILS of Slavery, and how we should make reperations to all the blacks for the evils that befell them.

    Then I am going to tell you, about one little man that was trying to get by on the little bit of crops and a cow. That was killed by a drunk that hated him because he was from the south!




Archer -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 7:44:56 PM)

I've always been partial to the version that says the "First Shots" were fired by a group of drunken cadets from The Citidel.




Emperor1956 -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 8:39:00 PM)

Interesting thread to have started on 9/11 -- think about what our great grandchildren will be saying in...oh...2080 about the symbolism of all those ribbons and "These colors don't run" flags c.2000.  Think any of them will be seen as symbols of hatred for Islam?

Anyway, I thought the basic answers (that it is today a symbol of white supremacy and hatred) were given by Puella and Level in about the 5th post on this thread.  So, just to throw a few thoughts out:

The "stars and bars" today raise the spectre of slavery, racism and hatred.  But really, that flag was during its use in the War a symbol of the American South, NOT of slavery -- at least not during the Civil War. (apologies to Archer, I'm going to refer to both symbols as "Confederate Flag"). The reason for this is simple -- few Southerners owned slaves, or had ANY connection with the institution of slavery.  It was basically an aberration of the weathy controlling class.

When we talk about the "Slaveowning South" we rarely acknowledge that in fact slavery was practiced by very few.  One of the great myths perpetuated in the standard "canon" of the Civil War is that slavery was deeply and completely present in the American South.  It wasn't.  Slaves were very present (indeed, in the rural South they were the predominant population) but slaveholders were a tiny, rich minority.  The myth of the slaveowing South was perpetuated in the North during the War and in Reconstruction, and has erroneously been a part of the story ever since.  Consider:

The US Population in 1860 was 31,100,000 (in this discussion I round a bit, these numbers are absolutely available for those who are interested.  Ask Me for the links).  I'll define the "South" as all states that allowed slavery save two (Nebraska and Kansas had legal slavery in 1860, they also had between the two of them 17 slaves.  They don't count).  The South had a general population of  12,240,000.   The South was about 40% of the US by population at the start of the War.

There were 4,000,000 slaves in the USA in 1860 which totaled 13% of the ENTIRE US population, and just under 33% of the population of the South.  There were ONLY 392,000 people who owned slaves, however, or just 3.2% of the Southern population.  And that includes women and children in slaveowning families.  Based on the large family size in families in 1860, fewer than 1% of Southern men owned slaves.  It would not be wrong to argue that "slavery" was an aberration of Southern life. 

But it wasn't just an aberration because few owned slaves, but those that owned them, owned LOTS of them.  There is a major shift in the economics of slavery in the United States from the 5 or 10 slaves that George Washington and Tom Jefferson owned c. 1750 to the hundreds of slaves that a Louisiana sugar or Georgia cotton plantation needed to run c. 1850. 

Walk through the deep South in 1860, say Georgia?  44% of the population was slaves.  Virginia?  39%.  Two states had over 1/2 their population comprised of slaves:  Mississippi (55%) and South Carolina (57%). 

The "fond memories" of Mammy, and house slaves being kind and gentle keepers of the poor rich white folk are myths, people.  Slavery as practiced in the American South in 1860 was a brutal use of human capital for economic gain.  Slaves were self-replicating property, no more and no less, and they were routinely tortured, deprived of basic human rights and murdered.  This, by the way, is the heritage of the "old South" that the 90% of Southerners could have rejected as they had no real stake in the fight, but they didn't.  This is also, I suggest, the false heritage those of you who claim "its just a symbol of the South" today.  These flags have too much blood behind them now to make that claim.

So My point?  I have two:  First, when folks talk about the "South", understand that the "heritage" of slavery is a very small percentage of the history of the natives of the South.  Indeed, the flag of the South once could have been the symbol of those who DID NOT own slaves. 

But it isn't.  It is a symbol of white supremacy and hatred.  WHY?  because (and this is point #2) those 1% of slaveowning men (and their families...make it 3% of the US population, and no more than 10% of the South) made the War about slavery. 

Ken D. and carolsea and the others who want to say the War was about economics and states' rights, etc. -- No.  The War was about the ability to maintain slavery as an economic force and expand it into the Western states (LaM got this part right).  So yes, it was about economics and states' rights as those issues relate to maintaining the institution of slavery.  The wealthy Southern white leadership -- almost to a man, slaveowners -- believed that by couching the political issue of slavery as "state's rights" or "property rights" they could get the wealthy Northern members of Congress to cast a blind eye to the practice...and for about 50 years before the outbreak of the War, it worked.  (There was, by the way, a small but potent anti-slavery movement in the South.  It was virtually silenced in all but Maryland and northern Virginia in the years before the War, but became a political force during Reconstruction.) 

The War between the States was most surely about the practice and reach and continuation of slavery, and slavery was most surely about the economics of the South.  (It also was about a horrific miscalculation of the Confederacy that they could win, or at least quickly fight the North to an uneasy draw.  This was Southern hubris, coupled with false promises of support from England and a few European countries, and a terrible underestimation of the iron will of Abraham Lincoln to not allow this country to be fragmented.  But that's a book, let alone more of this post.)

Is the Confederate Flag an evil symbol today?  It most certainly is, because it has been coopted as such by racist white groups beginning within months of the end of the Civil War and continuing today.  The meaning of the flag was radically corrupted almost as soon as the War ended. 

And the American South was no fun loving, down home picnic either, and anyone who thinks so is simply ignorant.  The South had 40% of the population ... it had (by the numbers)  70% of the underfed ("poverty" wasn't really a concept in 1860 -  most Americans were impoverished).  It had an infant mortality rate of more than 8 times the North, and a general mortality rate almost double (if you are at all incisive, or even reading along at this point, you will realize in no small part this was because it had ALL the slaves).  It had a significantly higher crime rate than the North.  Basically, Atlanta or Memphis c. 1860 was a lot like Baltimore's inner city c. 1965 -- except most people were white. 

And as for the "proud Southern heritage"?  In fact, most of those pick-up truck owners and truck drivers with the "Stars and Bars" on their bumper or the back window have no legitimate claim to the heritage of slaveholding -- their great gran'pappys were  poor white sharecroppers, or more likely, Yankees who came to the South during Reconstruction or even later.  The real Sons of the South -- the slaveholders --  would have kept them out of their schools, away from their churches, and impoverished on the edges of their land and treated them -- and their descendants -- as poor white trash.  The liberation of those folks ironically came with the destruction of the southern Aristocracy and the rise of the common black and white middle class after the War.

E.




Lordandmaster -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 9:07:19 PM)

I agree with most of what you wrote up there, but this sentence is misleading, to say the least.  You can't call it an "aberration" if slaveholding was the logic that drove all economic and political decisions that Southern states ever made.  You're right that it was restricted to a small class, that most white Southerners never owned slaves (you could even have made the argument that many white Southerners weren't even as well off as some slaves, although that's highly controversial)--but you can't call it an "aberration."  And the proof is in the pudding: when Southern intellectuals made grandiose arguments to the effect that the Union was trying to "assault their very way of life" (odd how we keep hearing that one again today, eh?), the way of life they were talking about was the slaveowning way of life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

It was basically an aberration of the weathy controlling class.




FangsNfeet -> RE: The Confederate Flag (9/15/2006 10:20:28 PM)

Be the confederate flag or the union flag, neither stood for hate. However, neither stood for freedom and equality either. Even for the Union, blacks were seperated into there own army units. Even when a slave made it to the feedom border, that never meant that they would be equal in status. Most still ended up being slaves having to work for white people making pennies compaired to white maids and butlers. Some escapies where forced to work so they could pay off there debts for recieving aide to make it to northern states.

Anyhow, the confederate flag normally only has me think about the General Lee on Dukes of Hazard. It was the first time I've ever seen the Confederate symbol. When I see the confederate flag, I have flash backs of all the old episodes and the cartoon series I watched as a kid.

Anytime I see someone flying the confederate flag or having the symbole on there pick up, I never assume they're hating raciest red necks. However, some may be looking for a reaction with shock value. Anyhow, I'm much more proud of being an American than I am a Country Boy born and raised in Texas.    




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