RE: are we really afraid?

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juliaoceania -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 1:31:18 PM)
I have never said in any post on here... "This is a non-debatable fact", so why is that assumption made when I have articulated an opinion. Most things that are posted here are after all "just opinions". If I am mistaken in a fact that supports my opinion please clarify for me where I maybe mistaken, but to state that I am declaring my opinions as "undebatable facts" to shoot my opinions down isn't conducive to illuminating truth... For those reading my posts, only take my posts as "indisputable facts" if I outright say that it is... if I haven't said that, it is an opinion. I am not afraid of being mistaken in my facts or opinions after all, I am here to learn.

seeksfemslave -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 1:34:49 PM)
Am I wrong in saying that though western intervention may have unleashed the violence we see in Eyeraq today by and large it is Eyeraqui killing Eyeraqui that is the problem. Have they not the opportunity to form a government and sort things out ? Only asking ?

caitlyn -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 1:43:31 PM)
I agree ... I have never seen you state anything you have said, as absolute fact. I'm not so sure about the task of illuminating truth. The only truth I know, is that each person has their own.

KenDckey -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 1:45:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom caitlyn, I am going to take a chance and assume that when you say "I hope" that what follows is something you actually mean as opposed to whatever it is you then run around saying you meant. quote: I hope the current round of "United States invented" opponents are not interested in body counts. That would make them very foolish, and as such, nothing to really be afraid of. If body counts aren't important, and only military ability and might is, why exactly did we leave Vietnam and let our enemy take it over? Or is it that you could really care less how many of America's brave men and woman are killed or maimed on the battlefield? If body counts didn't matter, why would people use car bombs or for that matter, are you saying that the innocent men and women who died on 9/11 don't matter because it is just a "body count" The occupation in Iraq, the stuggle to bring peace to the middle east and end the hold extremists have on religion has almost nothing to do with military might and far more to do with body counts. I think Body counts were a political thiing created by the Johnson Administration. Otherwise they really don't matter. they don't show effectiveness, they don't show anything but a public image. That is why the Army got rid of counting them. What matters more to the soldier is the person, who was he and is his remains gonna be treated right.

KenDckey -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 1:52:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Um like I said... if you have a problem with my opinion...please state it and not be obscure. I don't have a problem with your opinion. I had a problem stating it as non-debatable fact. Um, why is it that people have trouble understanding that one does not have to frame everything "this is my opinion". I stated an opinion based upon facts that I know of.. If you want to debate that, let me know, but chastising me for the way I frame my opinion is really a moot point... or shall I say... pointless. Most people can recognize a firmly stated opinion when they see one, they do not need it spelled out for them. I think they do. All to many people are gullible, unfortunately. If it is an opinion and clearly stated so then it really doesn't matter if I agree or disagree. what matters is my willingness to give my life so that you can have that opinion. but framing opinions as fact then goes to credibility. Yes your opinions are based upon fact. That is your intrepretation. If I had such a problem with an intrepretation then I would debate it, but if I think it isn't such a big deal, just one persons opinion then I will respect it as that. It is not my place to dictate your opinions. but changing facts and calling them facts. Well I sorta hve a problem with that It does injustice to the gullible and to the credibility of the presenter.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 1:55:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Am I wrong in saying that though western intervention may have unleashed the violence we see in Eyeraq today by and large it is Eyeraqui killing Eyeraqui that is the problem. Have they not the opportunity to form a government and sort things out ? Only asking ? Um, it's Iraq. Didn't the black slaves have the opportunity to form a government and sort things out in America from the 1600's onward?

juliaoceania -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:18:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I think they do. All to many people are gullible, unfortunately. If it is an opinion and clearly stated so then it really doesn't matter if I agree or disagree. what matters is my willingness to give my life so that you can have that opinion. but framing opinions as fact then goes to credibility. Yes your opinions are based upon fact. That is your intrepretation. If I had such a problem with an intrepretation then I would debate it, but if I think it isn't such a big deal, just one persons opinion then I will respect it as that. It is not my place to dictate your opinions. but changing facts and calling them facts. Well I sorta hve a problem with that It does injustice to the gullible and to the credibility of the presenter. Im not responsible for how people read my words or their level of gullibility. I will reiterate, almost everything I read on this forum is an opinion, now if others have not learned how to interpret information that is their problem. If all that was ever written on this board was black and white facts I doubt highly it would be very interesting, nor would people contribute. Almost all social science theory is based upon facts that are interpreted partially with the bias of "educated opinions".

KenDckey -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:19:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I have never said in any post on here... "This is a non-debatable fact", so why is that assumption made when I have articulated an opinion. Most things that are posted here are after all "just opinions". If I am mistaken in a fact that supports my opinion please clarify for me where I maybe mistaken, but to state that I am declaring my opinions as "undebatable facts" to shoot my opinions down isn't conducive to illuminating truth... For those reading my posts, only take my posts as "indisputable facts" if I outright say that it is... if I haven't said that, it is an opinion. I am not afraid of being mistaken in my facts or opinions after all, I am here to learn. American Imperialism is an extension of British Imperialism... and isn't it funny we had to bribe our "coalition' with promises of oil and contracting deals when we went into Iraq? Neo-Colonialism is about corporate interests, because if it was not about that we would not be there. We would not give a rat's ass about the region if it were not about the republican G.O.D. (Guns. oil, and drugs... where you find oil and drugs you will find American guns) in this post you stated that we bribed somebody. That is a statement of fact. Not an opinion. It is provable and therefore non-debatable. You also indicated that Republican’s God is Guns, oil and drugs. I am a republican and a Christian. I take great exception to that. No where have I seen where God was defined as Guns, Oil and Drugs. Um, why is it that people have trouble understanding that one does not have to frame everything "this is my opinion". I stated an opinion based upon facts that I know of.. If you want to debate that, let me know, but chastising me for the way I frame my opinion is really a moot point... or shall I say... pointless. Most people can recognize a firmly stated opinion when they see one, they do not need it spelled out for them. Here you state your opinion is based upon fact and how you frame your opinion is not important. I totally disagree. But I answered that disagreement already. Here my understanding that the facts as you know them is that Republicans worship Guns, Oil and Drugs when they go to church. I am Southern Baptist by choice and I guarantee that none of the churches that I have attended have ever preached in my presence about any of those three topics except a prayer to get drugs off the streets. I believe you perverted your opinion by stating it as fact and thus lessend yourself in many peoples eyes. So now we are at this post. Yes I agree you did n't call them non-debatable. I think you presented them that way though. you didn't make it clear that it was your opinion. You expoused what sounded like your intrepretation of fact which can't be proven. It didn't sound sarcastic either. Just sounded like you were presenting facts and I take major exception to the facts as presented.

juliaoceania -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:23:35 PM)
My words of calling the coalition payoffs bribes for support is not a new way of framing this occurence. We have taken over the job that the Brits started, namely the colonization of Iraq, The lines that define Iraq were cultural fictions which have had lasting impacts on the peoples that live there. We are now attempting to make that fiction work by imposing democratic government.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:25:59 PM)
Forgive me Julia, I may sin... quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey in this post you stated that we bribed somebody. That is a statement of fact. Not an opinion. It is provable and therefore non-debatable. Actually the usage of "bribe" in this particular post was obviously a personal perspective, and not meant to be taken as if there had been some legal trial and judged to be actual bribery. Someone else could call it simply a barter, or trade, or tax. quote: You also indicated that Republican’s God is Guns, oil and drugs. I am a republican and a Christian. I take great exception to that. No where have I seen where God was defined as Guns, Oil and Drugs. While it would be an overgeneralization to suggest that ALL republicans feel this way, Julia's statement was very obviously again a figure of speech, to suggest that they treat guns, oil and drugs as if it were their gods- not meant to be taken literally. You seem to have a problem with deciphering literal vs figurative language. quote: Here you state your opinion is based upon fact and how you frame your opinion is not important. I totally disagree. But I answered that disagreement already. She meant that how she frames it in terms of communicating through specific words and figurative language- not the process of forming an educated opinion itself. quote: You expoused what sounded like your intrepretation of fact which can't be proven. It didn't sound sarcastic either. Just sounded like you were presenting facts and I take major exception to the facts as presented. I think you just entered a debate and got a bit overemotional and are now trying to clean-up by complaining that you didn't realize this was a decate. I think it's clear now- Julia presented opinions based on facts she believes to be true. You are free to debate those conclusions and methods, but please stop picking at language and getting all bothered over non-existent problems.

KenDckey -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:26:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I think they do. All to many people are gullible, unfortunately. If it is an opinion and clearly stated so then it really doesn't matter if I agree or disagree. what matters is my willingness to give my life so that you can have that opinion. but framing opinions as fact then goes to credibility. Yes your opinions are based upon fact. That is your intrepretation. If I had such a problem with an intrepretation then I would debate it, but if I think it isn't such a big deal, just one persons opinion then I will respect it as that. It is not my place to dictate your opinions. but changing facts and calling them facts. Well I sorta hve a problem with that It does injustice to the gullible and to the credibility of the presenter. Im not responsible for how people read my words or their level of gullibility. I will reiterate, almost everything I read on this forum is an opinion, now if others have not learned how to interpret information that is their problem. If all that was ever written on this board was black and white facts I doubt highly it would be very interesting, nor would people contribute. Almost all social science theory is based upon facts that are interpreted partially with the bias of "educated opinions". Almost everything I read is opinion as well. It is clear to me that it is opinion by the way it is stated. But statements presented as facts bother me greately. As to your responsibility, well I was always taught that it was the responsibility of the presenter to make it clear not the listener to understand. Maybe my teachers had it all wrong

meatcleaver -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:28:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Am I wrong in saying that though western intervention may have unleashed the violence we see in Eyeraq today by and large it is Eyeraqui killing Eyeraqui that is the problem. Have they not the opportunity to form a government and sort things out ? Only asking ? It's not all Iraqi killing Iraqi. Without the invasion and some idiot deciding the best thing to do was to fire all the Iraqi security forces, there probably wouldn't have been a disintegration of society and a power vacuum foreign insurgents were able to take advantage of. I think CD pointed out before, not even after WWII did the allies do a stupid trick like that. The invasion created the situation that is now in Iraq, it wasn't there before. When many Iraqis look back on the era of Saddam with nostalgia, it says a lot about what has been created in its place. The very idea that you can invade a country and suddenly magic a democracy is naive and idiotic in the extreme.

KenDckey -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:28:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania My words of calling the coalition payoffs bribes for support is not a new way of framing this occurence. We have taken over the job that the Brits started, namely the colonization of Iraq, The lines that define Iraq were cultural fictions which have had lasting impacts on the peoples that live there. We are now attempting to make that fiction work by imposing democratic government. but if they are bribbes then it can be proven and is impeachable and we should start that process immediately Have we? No You appear to have the facts that I don't so I guess it is your responsibility

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:28:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey As to your responsibility, well I was always taught that it was the responsibility of the presenter to make it clear not the listener to understand. Maybe my teachers had it all wrong Communication is an active process requring cooperation and coordination on all sides. Given Julia's tenure on CM and practice at being called to the floor (which she does often as her style DOES lend itself to being more "matter of fact" than she seems to realize), and your own seeming issues with parsing tone online as well as figurative vs literal forms of speech, I'd say it was fault on all sides. Now we can progress to the actual debate at hand.

juliaoceania -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:34:27 PM)
Your teachers had it wrong... in my opinion. I have listened to debate and taken part in it on a few different occasions, the last formal one was my son's forensics competition. Things are often stated in colorful ways as to sway opinion. There is nothing wrong with this. I am not a news reporter or a head of state. My use of language to support my positions is not going to convince people that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, or that Saddam was in on 9-11. I think you are right in one regard, people in positions of authority and power should measure their words more truthfully and they should be less inflammatory than someone who is a layperson like myself. Again, if people cannot tell the difference between fact and opinion they should have paid more attention to their critical thinking classes, and no this is not my responsibility to teach them.

KenDckey -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:35:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Forgive me Julia, I may sin... quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey in this post you stated that we bribed somebody. That is a statement of fact. Not an opinion. It is provable and therefore non-debatable. Actually the usage of "bribe" in this particular post was obviously a personal perspective, and not meant to be taken as if there had been some legal trial and judged to be actual bribery. Someone else could call it simply a barter, or trade, or tax. quote: You also indicated that Republican’s God is Guns, oil and drugs. I am a republican and a Christian. I take great exception to that. No where have I seen where God was defined as Guns, Oil and Drugs. While it would be an overgeneralization to suggest that ALL republicans feel this way, Julia's statement was very obviously again a figure of speech, to suggest that they treat guns, oil and drugs as if it were their gods- not meant to be taken literally. You seem to have a problem with deciphering literal vs figurative language. quote: Here you state your opinion is based upon fact and how you frame your opinion is not important. I totally disagree. But I answered that disagreement already. She meant that how she frames it in terms of communicating through specific words and figurative language- not the process of forming an educated opinion itself. quote: You expoused what sounded like your intrepretation of fact which can't be proven. It didn't sound sarcastic either. Just sounded like you were presenting facts and I take major exception to the facts as presented. I think you just entered a debate and got a bit overemotional and are now trying to clean-up by complaining that you didn't realize this was a decate. I think it's clear now- Julia presented opinions based on facts she believes to be true. You are free to debate those conclusions and methods, but please stop picking at language and getting all bothered over non-existent problems. I think I thanked her for her opinion in post 35 and reiterated it in post 49. My problem is the way she stated things. It lead me to understand it as a statement of fact. And yes I have a tendency to take things m uch to literal I think that started in 1969 when I had to learn how to program computers with wires and was enhanced when I got to use a dumb terminal.

juliaoceania -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:39:49 PM)
Perhaps I should put a disclaimer in my sig line... "The things in my post and in almost every other post reflect the views and or opinions of the poster and should not be taken literally,we should also make the same disclaimer for everyone else that utters an opinion, especially Faux News and almost every other news outlet....

KenDckey -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:41:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Forgive me Julia, I may sin... quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey in this post you stated that we bribed somebody. That is a statement of fact. Not an opinion. It is provable and therefore non-debatable. Actually the usage of "bribe" in this particular post was obviously a personal perspective, and not meant to be taken as if there had been some legal trial and judged to be actual bribery. Someone else could call it simply a barter, or trade, or tax. quote: You also indicated that Republican’s God is Guns, oil and drugs. I am a republican and a Christian. I take great exception to that. No where have I seen where God was defined as Guns, Oil and Drugs. While it would be an overgeneralization to suggest that ALL republicans feel this way, Julia's statement was very obviously again a figure of speech, to suggest that they treat guns, oil and drugs as if it were their gods- not meant to be taken literally. You seem to have a problem with deciphering literal vs figurative language. quote: Here you state your opinion is based upon fact and how you frame your opinion is not important. I totally disagree. But I answered that disagreement already. She meant that how she frames it in terms of communicating through specific words and figurative language- not the process of forming an educated opinion itself. quote: You expoused what sounded like your intrepretation of fact which can't be proven. It didn't sound sarcastic either. Just sounded like you were presenting facts and I take major exception to the facts as presented. I think you just entered a debate and got a bit overemotional and are now trying to clean-up by complaining that you didn't realize this was a decate. I think it's clear now- Julia presented opinions based on facts she believes to be true. You are free to debate those conclusions and methods, but please stop picking at language and getting all bothered over non-existent problems. I think I thanked her for her opinion in post 35 and reiterated it in post 49. My problem is the way she stated things. It lead me to understand it as a statement of fact. And yes I have a tendency to take things m uch to literal I think that started in 1969 when I had to learn how to program computers with wires and was enhanced when I got to use a dumb terminal. OH and my grand daughter is worse than I am on literal intrepretation. She can twist my words so quick that it would makes my head spin trying to keep up.

KenDckey -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:43:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Perhaps I should put a disclaimer in my sig line... "The things in my post and in almost every other post reflect the views and or opinions of the poster and should not be taken literally,we should also make the same disclaimer for everyone else that utters an opinion, especially Faux News and almost every other news outlet.... ROFL Well I wouldn't argue about them then. LOL I like the quotes that are there by the way.

juliaoceania -> RE: are we really afraid? (9/12/2006 2:47:57 PM)
Maybe I should take it as a sort of compliment that you think that I come across so forcefully that I can come across as arbiter of factoids...smiles. I never had much trouble arguing my points and perspectives in classes when I was in college, in fact many of my professors were rather fond of my forceful nature and gave me excellent marks on my papers, because they were always opinions backed with documented facts. I was of the mind that by the time I was at that level of education the last thing they would be interested in reading was regurgitated information in book report format. It is hard from me to change from that style of writing, and since I will be doing a lot more of it, I will keep this style because it works for me when it is most important.

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