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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 6:56:10 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		I think perhaps you need to check more news sources than those of Israeli supporters, like the US...

Though very recently, before Sharon (whom I have no real respect for) started actually pulling the Israeli settlers out of Palestine, the list of crimes against the Palestinian people perpetrated by the Israelis is too vast to be listed, including but not exclusive to bulldozing Palestinian homes, and infrastructure and kidnapping and holding Palestinian citizens in concentration camps for up to 30 days, and then releasing them so that they would not have to declare charges against them.

I am not saying that the many vigilante groups in Palestine are correct or absolved of fault in their violent behaviors, but ... neither should the Israelis be... even if they are given the US stamp of approval in the form of billions of dollars payed to them from our tax dollars.

< Message edited by puella -- 9/15/2006 6:57:02 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 7:41:48 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Not trying to absolve them of anything. Simply making note that while the ISrealis have finally moved towards the middle ground of the Two State Solution, the Palistinians have not made the same step. It is still part of the Hamas Platform to DESTROY Isreal. Hezbolah also has that as a stated platform in the north, to push Isreal into the sea. Even after the pull out from Lebanon their supposed cause, according to charter. Yet even though Isreal had been out of Lebanon for the better part of 5 years, the attacks never stopped. If your cause is "to eject Isreali troops from Lebanon" and the troops withdraw from Lebanon then why are you still shooting rockets, kidnapping soldiers, sending in Homocide bombers???

As for Isreali continued expanssion Yes it happened but the government of Isreal has since taken steps to correct the expanssion and removed it's own people. The Wall? Well tell me exactly WTF are you supposed to do to stop/ reduce/ control the continued homocide bombings comming your way? And I don't wanna hear some kinder gentler it's gonna take time stuff, people were and still are dieing and doing nothing is not an option.

If you can expect the Isrealis to be removed from heir homes in the interest of peace you have to expect a similar commitment from the other side. Problem is the reasonable Palistinians are now called Jordanians, those still calling themselves Palistinians are those who were unwilling to accept the previous orginal two state solution Jordan and Isreal.

I'm not deluded enough to think Isreal is blameless, They have contributed to the problem. But they are the only ones I see of the primary actors that is making the real effort TODAY.

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 7:46:02 PM   
puella


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Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Come on Archer, they are not really 'their' homes if they build them on someone elses property... Can I build a house in your backyard and call it mine?  (I promise not to paint it pink!)

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 7:49:46 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Not exactly the point, the point is The Isreali Government removed them.
Anything even resembling that kind of action from the governing bodies of the other side?

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 7:53:13 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		So you go in and invade your neighbors and take their land... and then give it back in a couple of decades because you are forced to by the will of the world... never apologize for the lives you took, never acknowledge the pain you cause.. its all good right? No harm done right? Bulldoze homes, shoot kids for throwing rocks.. its all good.. all you have to do to look like a hero is go back where you belong? Well the world does not work that way

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 7:53:25 PM   
puella


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Status: offline 		Well, no.  There are no Palestine settlements in Israel... just Palestinian concentration camps like Jenin.  And not all the Israeli  "settlements" have been expunged.  Nor has Jerusalem, which is supposed to be a dualized city, accessable to the Palestinians freely.

< Message edited by puella -- 9/15/2006 7:56:08 PM >

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 8:05:49 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Puella evassive and non responsive.

Have the Palistinians take action to curb their homocide bombers, have they arrested folks for breaking the peace, or have they turned a blind eye? You're not going to find a perfectly equivolent but anything close to the level of attempting to correct the wrongs including removal of yur own citizens would be acceptable. Just looking for anything on the same level.

LOL your history is lacking julia the land was originally taken after ISREAL was invaded and was held as a buffer zone. Now granted Isreal failed to keep it as a buffer zone and after a time basicly stole by conversion. Those are the settlements that Isreal has dismantled and removed their people from, (more or less an acre here or there).

As to blaming Isreal for it all, there is blame enough to go around. Rather than play the blame game I'm looking for current action to make a workable peace, can't change what's already happened. Both sides have their histories of acts that qualify as terrible. The question cannot be who is more to blame; it has to be who's working towards peace NOW.
And for 5 years Isreal has been taking the most actions that way. They have shifted official policy to accepting the Two State Solution, and not only changed the policy but have concrete actions towards implimenting it.


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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 8:07:31 PM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		They did not take land from Egypt?

On edit, walls never made for a lasting peace.. walls separate people and make peace less likely.. that is what Israel wants to do

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/15/2006 8:08:59 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 8:08:51 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Yes it's called the GAza Strip and it is part of the two state solution the part they gave to the Palistinians.

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 8:10:18 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I rarely debate this issue with anyone because it is SENSELESS and impossible... I resent giving my taxdollar to Israel. If we did not back Israel I would have less of a bitch about it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 8:12:07 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		No more than I resent my taxes going for some of the things you see as reasonable and I see as wastefull. LOL


(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 8:26:08 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I bet I resent it FAR more. Enough to where I would like to see my state succede from the union..we could do just fine on our own.

On Edit: I hope people realize I am exagerating....smiles...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/15/2006 8:35:58 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 9:09:23 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Yeah, Fort Sumter is on the other coast, julia.

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 9:31:43 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		But your own state would be proportionatly as supportive of Isreal, so you'd be back in the same boat.

It's not lke there is any lack of governement support for Isreal from the California delegation.



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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/15/2006 9:37:27 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I was going to type a rather longwinded reply, but the CITIZENS of the USA do not necessarily support giving money to Israel... our representatives are not representing us very well.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/15/2006 9:38:00 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 2:40:21 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

And for 5 years Isreal has been taking the most actions that way. They have shifted official policy to accepting the Two State Solution, and not only changed the policy but have concrete actions towards implimenting it.



What Israel says and what Israel does are two different things. Israel has continued to give permission for new settlements on occupied land, this has never stopped, not even through so called peace processes and is one of the main reasons why all the peace processes have failed. If you was a Palestinian and the Israeli government said, it believed in a two state solution and then the next day Israeli bulldozers arrive and rip up your ancient olive groves, redirect your water and told to find somewhere else to live because they are building a new settlement, would you believe the Israeli government? And yes, this sort of thing happens all the time. 

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 5:40:19 AM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Both sides can make a splendid case to support their actions. Each side can find many reasons why the other side is entirely at fault. Israel can say that they have given back land, which is entirely true, and it has only emboldened the other side, and put missiles closer to their cities. The other side, can say that Israel shouldn't have taken the land it the first place, which is equaly true, etc, etc, etc ...
 
It's a sad world we live in. This is only going to be settled when one side crushes the other. The only bitter truth that can be said, is that Israel does a really good job of sucking up to that really strong, big brother to the west, while assorted Muslim groups seem bent on pissing that big brother off.
 
Bitter truth ... the Israeli's are playing the game much better, and will probably win in the end.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 9/16/2006 5:43:10 AM >

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 6:11:50 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"Simply making note that while the ISrealis have finally moved towards the middle ground of the Two State Solution, the Palistinians have not made the same step."

.........er....so Israel refusing to even speak to the democratically elected Palestinian government is evidence of Israel moving towards the middle ground eh? The reason they give is that they wont negotiate with terrorists. Well sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, surely. Your thesis Archer, requires us to forget the history of Israeli aggression and oppression whilst simultaneously remembering Arab terrorism. If we do that then we can indeed say that Israel holds the moral high ground. However, while Israel and  Hezbollah merely trade war crimes at each other then there will be no peace. There are many forces trying to get the Arabs to admit their wrong doings and come back to negotiation....where are the same public forces trying to get Israel to do the same?

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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 7:43:36 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Well lets see if the OFFICIAL possition of the newly elected government of Palistinian territories (Hamas) didn't happen to be THE COMPLETE DESTRRUCTION of Isreal, you think Isreal might, just might come to the table to talk.
Seems to me that Isreal has made it perfectly clear that if Hamas will change that one little inconvienient official policy, then they will release the funding, as well as return to negotiations.

Meanwhile the matter with Hezbola is related but not the same, while both Hamas and Hezbola enjoy the tacit and not so tacit support of much of the Arab world, and they share the same little inconvienient policy of total destruction of Isreal, Hezbola was formed to get Isreal out of Lebanon. Since they withdrew their forces in 2000 it would seem that only retaliation or that inconvienient policy of total destruction would give them any reason to have continued the fight for more than, lets give them 3 years and say 2003, it's long past.

I'm not asking that the history of either side be given more weight, but if you want to go back far enough you can take it back to exodus stories and find plenty of outrage to commizerate with. To be practicle and make any progress you have to stop the counting of attrocities at some date that you pick at random and most find the date they use  by highlighting some big act by the other side. Rather than do that I am picking a time that is relatively current 5 or 6 years and saying Forget both sides past attrocities datting back to the Exodus story and saying lets find the way to what the majority of the world says is the only reasonable solution, the two state solution, and who is willing to do what to make that happen.



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RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 8:31:14 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"Seems to me that Isreal has made it perfectly clear that if Hamas will change that one little inconvienient official policy, then they will release the funding, as well as return to negotiations."

..and if Israel would release the how-many-is-it-now men, women and children they are holding without trial then maybe Hezbollah would feel more confident in changing that policy. You can't just keep pointing to the wrong on one side without looking at the wrong on the other side. Both sides here are acting in a manner incompatible with peaceful co-existence, not just one side. While you and those who agree with you only put pressure on Hezbollah to compromise then clearly they wont. Your position is utterly based on the assumption that Hezbollah is more responsible for the breakdown in communication than Israel. Quite frankly i can't see how on earth anyone who looks at the situation without partisan eyes can reach this conclusion.

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