Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Cultural Phlosiphy


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Cultural Phlosiphy Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 8:51:13 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Very well put, philosophy. 

You have to understand though, that in the US there is absolutely no coverage or information (which is readily handed out, like the news) which documents in an easily accessible manner about any side of this horrendous situation other than that which is supported by and in tandem with the Israeli faction.  And most Americans need it very easily accessible to even consider letting it approach their bubble of apathy.

It is important to note too, that groups like the PLO and Hammas and Hezbolah are not "long standing political traditions' within the Lebanese and Palestinian history.  They are reactive groups which have come about as a direct result to situational 'calamities' which have effected enough people to allow for a vigilant and organized opposition.

It is also important for us to note... who is now doing the greatest part in 'healing' and rebuilding after the recent Lebanese invasion by Israel?  Hezbolah.  Things get much stickier when the groups we (in some sort of need to compartmentalize and demonize for our own sense of righteousness) label strictly as 'terrorists' are also providing the most comprehensive humanitarian and economic support to victimized people.  If we had any idea of the nature of the conflict and the true scope of the problem over there, we would be in there helping the healing not just supplying munitions to one side of the fray.

< Message edited by puella -- 9/16/2006 8:55:46 AM >

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 8:56:33 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Very well put, philosophy. 

You have to understand though, that in the US there is absolutely no coverage or information (which is readily handed out, like the news) which documents in an easily accessible manner about any side of this horrendous situation other than that which is supported by and in tandem with the Israeli faction. 

That just is not true, puella.

It is also important for us to note... who is now doing the greatest part in 'healing' and rebuilding after the recent Lebanese invasion by Israel?  Hezbolah.  Things get much stickier when the groups we, in some sort of need to compartmentalize and demonize for our own sense of righteousness, label as 'terrorists' are also providing the most comprehensive humanitarian and economic support to victimized people.  If we had any idea of the nature of the conflict and the true scope of the problem over there, we would be in there helping the healing not just supplying munitions to one side of the fray.

Hezbollah is helping because they don't want the blame for the war cast in their direction.


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 9:06:41 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		Level

i have to say that when i was in the states, i found the basic news coverage shockingly bad. i remember an incident which was reported about a suicide bomber killing a number of Israelis. It was reported, understandably, as an outrage on US tv...another vicious terrorist bolt from the blue..........except it wasn't........on reading the BBC website i discovered it was a retaliatory attack for an Israeli airstrike that had missed its intended target and had, instead, killed some Palestinian kids.
i was shocked at this apparently blatant bias in news reporting, so tried a little ad hoc experiment. As an informed person no doubt you are aware, as  most europeans are, that Israels High Court legalised the torture of Palestinians without trial. However, not one American i asked was aware of how much respect the best american ally in the region has for human rights.
Maybe things have improved enormously since then, but that still leaves years of incredibly biased reporting to get over...attitudes formed by such blatant propaganda take time to get rid of........i welcome the 'net. Finally Americans and everyone else can begin to bypass the news coverage chosen for them, they can see how they are seen from afar.........now all thats necessary is a general will to find out whats really going on.......

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 9:10:16 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		I maintain that it is true, Level.  If you even so much as whisper at any sort of sympathy for the Palestinians or Lebanese, the 'anti-Semite' tag gets bandied about.  Although I will state that there was the tiniest bit more perspective in the plight of the Lebanese civilians in the coverage of the Israeli offensive, there was still no mainstream in depth coverage of what is causing these problems.  It was most greatly attributed to Hezbolah capturing two soldiers (no mention of the Lebanese citizens being taken in 'sweeps' to Israeli concentration camps). 

Having lived abroad, the news coverage there is so shockingly different, not just on excitable occasions, but day to day, that I really feel there is a fundamental difference in the way this whole situation is and has been presented.  The in depth investigative news stories by Channel 4 and panorama are something that is absolutely unmatched in our own news organizations.

As for stating that not wanting to be blamed is the motivation of Hezbollah's humanitarian efforts, I must dispute your assertion.  Hezbollah, long before Israel destroyed so much of Lebanon in this last attack, has been an organization which has provided many social services and humanitarian relief to the people of Lebanon.  Their history is well documented, and is a great reason why they were elected into the governmental body of Lebanon, and why there are such deep seated conflicts with the Lebanese leaders in denouncing them in totality. 


< Message edited by puella -- 9/16/2006 9:12:02 AM >

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 9:18:58 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Level

i have to say that when i was in the states, i found the basic news coverage shockingly bad. i remember an incident which was reported about a suicide bomber killing a number of Israelis. It was reported, understandably, as an outrage on US tv...another vicious terrorist bolt from the blue..........except it wasn't........on reading the BBC website i discovered it was a retaliatory attack for an Israeli airstrike that had missed its intended target and had, instead, killed some Palestinian kids.
i was shocked at this apparently blatant bias in news reporting, so tried a little ad hoc experiment. As an informed person no doubt you are aware, as  most europeans are, that Israels High Court legalised the torture of Palestinians without trial. However, not one American i asked was aware of how much respect the best american ally in the region has for human rights.
Maybe things have improved enormously since then, but that still leaves years of incredibly biased reporting to get over...attitudes formed by such blatant propaganda take time to get rid of........i welcome the 'net. Finally Americans and everyone else can begin to bypass the news coverage chosen for them, they can see how they are seen from afar.........now all thats necessary is a general will to find out whats really going on.......


It's not the generals, it's the commander-in-chief that may be the problem.....
 
All I know is that I've seen plenty of critcal coverage here, such as when the Israelis hit the UN building in Lebanon. I do strongly agree, philosophy, about how welcome the internet is in allowing more options.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 1:05:50 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I like it fangs. Very un-PC, but also very true.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 1:07:41 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		OK I would like at least some ammount of consistancy philosophy though, too many times the groups are being lumped together. Hamas and Hezbola are not the same group; you interchanged them in your reply.

I made a statement about Hamas and you replied with something true but about Hezbola.





(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 1:12:53 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Now to address the logic of your reply Phiolosophy so until Isreal has made the entire step you expect nothing from Hamas or Hezbola? Isreal adopted the Two state solution, Removed it's own people from the illegal settlements by force, and then did the prudent thing waited for Hamas and Hexzbola to make their step towards the middle. I'm not going to walk 15 miles towards you unless I see you on your way there as well. I'll walk the mile and then wait till you walk one too.
Diplomaticly it's sound thinking to do so, if on the other hand I walk the 15 miles and you don't walk at all and we talk some more the current middle ground is now 21 miles from my start point and 7.5 miles from yours.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Cultural Philosophy (was Phlosiphy) - 9/16/2006 1:23:53 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

If all the Musilims were to put down there guns, there would be peace. If all the Jews were to put down there guns, there would be no Jews.



The United States forced Saddam Hussein to disarm (i.e. put down his guns) and then invaded his country.  He is still alive, and is still Muslim, so you are technically correct.

The Isrealis have been trying to get the Palestineans to put down guns for years, and when that doesnt work, they resort to bombs and tanks, which are not technically guns in a true sense of the word. 

Rwandans had the right idea.  They didnt have any guns (to put down) so they generally used machetes to slaughter each other.

The problem with mankind is EVERYBODY has to put down their weapons and hatreds and animosity and bigotry and intolerance at the same time, and then there will be peace.  But as long as you have one set of people armed and the other not armed, the ones with the weapons will generally make war on the ones who are not armed.

God / Allah / Whoever usually fights on the side with the best weaponry.

There was an interesting study with college students where the students were told to use electric shocks (negative reinforcement) to train other students.  The students GIVING the shocks were the subjects, the ones GETTING the shocks were actors.  The ones getting the shocks generally pretended to fail to learn their lessons, as they were supposed to, and so the ones giving the shocks would use gradually increasing voltage levels to engender compliance.

The experiment was stopped because many of those inflicting shocks would up the voltage to levels (they were told) which could conceivably be fatal to the ones receiving it.  People generally are poor at self-monitoring themselves and controlling the lengths they will go to further their desire to inflict their will on other people.

There will not be peace as long as there are people who go through life with the attitude that they have to attack and murder and make war on their brothers BEFORE their brothers make war on them.  Add to that the human striving many have that there is no higher purpose in life than inflicting one's own will on unconsenting people, and human suffering and intolerance is unlikely to disappear.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/16/2006 1:29:15 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Only in the U.S., and partly it's because maybe real anti-Semites often try to dress themselves up in anti-Israel rhetoric and loudly complain that they're merely anti-Zionists, not anti-Semites (as though "objecting to Israeli policies" and "being anti-Zionist" were just two terms for the same thing).  You find this surprisingly often among American libertarians.

I'd best most Jews in Israel have at least some sympathy for the Palestinians and are somewhere between disappointed and outraged that their government hasn't done better.  If it's not most Jews, it's a huge minority.  Most right-wing radicals in Israel are immigrants.

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

If you even so much as whisper at any sort of sympathy for the Palestinians or Lebanese, the 'anti-Semite' tag gets bandied about.

(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Cultural PHILOSOPHY! - 9/16/2006 6:00:21 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
Hello A/all,

On a related note, I always find myself fascinated by the people who cite historical precedent for the existence of the state of Isreal.

Prior to the end of World War 2, Isreal did not exist.  If I was Jewish, I would want to leave Europe to after the Holocaust, but technically, the lands which became Isreal were former colonies of Britain and other European powers, peopled by the various peoples of Arabic descent, and were invaded to form Isreal and built up from scratch into a regional power regardless of what the indigenous people wanted to have happen.

The parallels with the Caucasian invasion of North America are striking.

1)  Invade

2)  Build a homeland

3)  Corral the indigenous people in reservations or build walls to keep them out and let them come work inside if they promise to play nice.

4)  Prevent them from establishing any sort of connection with foreign powers without one's blessing and control.

Prior to World War 2, most countries which now comprise Saudi Arabia, Isreal, Palestine, etc., were occupied by wandering groups of peoples who were occupied and governed as colonies by Caucasian invaders from Britain and France.

Isreal, knowing it is an invading occupying force in a hostile territory, relies extensively on immigrants from most of Europe (that last until this day) and the bulk of their support is from private donors.  While I might have issue with our government supporting Isreal, there are 2 ways this is happening.  1) Our government supplies arms and weapons and money to Isreal.  2)  Our government states that any donations to Isreal are tax-exempt.

Sure, let people give huge amounts of money to Isreal.

Tax it first.  If Isreal is a real friend and ally, they will understand this is really only done to make sure our roads are fixed, etc.

I have to ask a question of you pro-Isreal people.  Why exactly do you consider Isreal our friend when the various government agencies in charge of protecting vital military, etc., information (DOD, etc) state in big blue letters all over their documents (otherwise stamped TOP SECRET and SECRET and NOFORN and the like) that dissemination to Isreal is strictly prohibited.  Yes, I had a security clearance in a former life.  No, I wont tell you what I did.  Isreal is considered in various industries to be a national security threat to the United States.

Some friend.  With a friend like Isreal, who needs enemies?

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Cultural PHILOSOPHY! - 9/17/2006 6:42:06 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"I made a statement about Hamas and you replied with something true but about Hezbola."

...fair enough, but the point i was trying to make is that Israel isn't good at talking to people it doesn;t like.......

"so until Isreal has made the entire step you expect nothing from Hamas or Hezbola?"

....far from it. i expect both groups to make concessions simultaneously with Israel. Thing is Archer, particulary in the case of Hamas, how many concessions have they already made? A government of national unity is in the midst of being set up in the Palestinaian controlled areas....and what is Israel's response to this concession to their sensibility? Is it A) a staement welcoming the move, or B) a staement saying that nothing has changed and thet their previous position still holds.

To turn your question around Archer, do you expect Hamas/Hezbollah to make the entire step while Israel makes a partial one? Clearly not, you're not a foolish man, so it comes down to information.......how do we know what concessions have really been made on each side? The reporting of Israel is appalling in the States, quite frankly i bet the media over there fails to report Palestinaian concessions, while simultaneously playing up Israeli ones. It is against that background that Americans should examine their position on this issue, and their support for their governments foreign policy in the region.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Cultural PHILOSOPHY! - 9/17/2006 6:56:27 AM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		It's about time people stopped pointing out who is the bad guy in the whole Arab/Israeli conflict and realise there are no good guys.  Supporting either of them excuses the lives they've wasted.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Cultural PHILOSOPHY! - 9/21/2006 11:16:11 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Actually Isreal made peace with Jordan and Egypt( Camp David under Carter), and gave back a  lot of land.  Neither the Jordanians nor the Egyptian broke the deal the way the Arrafat Gov (Fatah)did after the Dayton accords or Hezbollah did after the 2000 pull out of Lebanon, and Isreal has not made the slightest aggression towards either.  The Palestinain people have suffered terribly, for instance when Arafat died it turned out he had 12 billion dollars stashed in personal Bank accounts in Europe, while the Palestinian people suffered in squalor.  Also Arab armies held Jerusalem as well as every inch of the west bank and gazafor almost 20 years, and they did not allow the Palestinains to form a state.  The people of Palestine are nothing but fodder for the PLO and other Arab Leaders to advance their own aims, and die billionaires.  Finally far more Palestinains have been killed by other Palestinains than by Isrealis. 

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Cultural PHILOSOPHY! - 9/21/2006 11:41:04 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Israel didn't have a deal with Hezzbollah, they withdrew because they decided the price of occupying Lebanon was too high. It was the occupation that basically formed the resistance movement/terrorists Hezzbollah. I think Jordan withdrew its claim to the west bank saying the solution is for Israel. The Arab states have used the Palestinians as a pawn and Arrafat might have been corrupt but so has Sharon, what of it?

The Balfour agreement did say there should be a two state solution but it was never implemented as Israel was set up without agreement with the rest of the people of Trans-Jordania and the agreement said all people of whatever ethnic group and religion should be treated equal in the new states. That never happened and that is the reason for the conflict.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/22/2006 12:06:48 AM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		The west bank is still being invaded by Israeli settlers. The wall is being used to steal more land as well. The west bank is settled all over with subsidized Israeli enclaves linked by nice highways back to Israeli territory. You go to work in Israel, come home and relax under heavy military security in the home that used to belong to a Palestinian. Because your little Israeli suburb exists, all the Palestinians around you must live under curfews, searches, and being humiliated and rousted regularly.

The Gaza being given back by inches, is a diversion while the West Bank is taken over completely. Look at the map. Do you think a country would want a hostile nation in it's center? Or on it's edge? They will dissolve the West Bank. Then let the remaining Palestinians go to Gaza. Then slowly push the Palestinians in Gaza into the sea.

< Message edited by Kedicat -- 9/22/2006 12:07:50 AM >

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Cultural PHILOSOPHY! - 9/22/2006 10:41:44 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Meat Cleaver wrote---The Arab states have used the Palestinians as a pawn and Arrafat might have been corrupt but so has Sharon, what of it? ----   No, Sharon did not rule the Isrealies by violence for decades, and steal billions of dollars while his people suffered and died.  I guess that you dont care a whit about the suffering of the Palestinains.  Being a pawn in someones elses game is always a bad place to be.  It is correct that the Palestinain state was never set up, because the area was invaded and occupyied by other Arab nations.  In Isreal all Arab Muslims and Christian have full citizenship and get to vote, it was only in the area occupyied by other Arabs that there was no equality.  the reason for the conflict is that the Palestinians were used and continue to be used as pawns, by the other Arabs....

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/22/2006 10:54:43 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Kedicat, so you seem to believe in the Isrealis want Genocide,"push them all into the sea" delusion...If Isreal wanted to eliminate the Palestinians, they could have done so in about 3 hours at any time for the past 30 years.  Why have they not?  The fact is Isreal has shown incredible restraint with the hostile nations on its edge.  And Isreal has followed every peace deal that it has signed, unless it was broken on the other side first.  You did Not address my point that all the land in dispute was held by Arabs, and they refused to allow a Palestinian state to be created.  After the 48 war 1/2 of Jerusalem was occupyied by arabs, as well as every inch of Gaza and the West Bank.  They are humilated and rousted because thier homes are being used to wage war for the benefit of others.  Kedicat  How do you explain arafat stealing 12 Billion dollars from the Palestinian people?  They have been used as pawns....

(in reply to Kedicat)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Cultural PHILOSOPHY! - 9/22/2006 12:30:11 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Meat Cleaver wrote---The Arab states have used the Palestinians as a pawn and Arrafat might have been corrupt but so has Sharon, what of it? ----   No, Sharon did not rule the Isrealies by violence for decades, and steal billions of dollars while his people suffered and died.  I guess that you dont care a whit about the suffering of the Palestinains.  Being a pawn in someones elses game is always a bad place to be.  It is correct that the Palestinain state was never set up, because the area was invaded and occupyied by other Arab nations.  In Isreal all Arab Muslims and Christian have full citizenship and get to vote, it was only in the area occupyied by other Arabs that there was no equality.  the reason for the conflict is that the Palestinians were used and continue to be used as pawns, by the other Arabs....



The 12 billion dollars is a little absurd, I don't think the international community have ever been that generous and the restrictions put on the Palestinian economy by Israel certainly wouldn't have enabled him to accumulate that. Your figures let your argument down.

Full citizenship? What is the Orwellian classification 'present absentee' about? Don't tell me I know. You have no need to tell me about Israel, I have been several times with a friend, whose father, a Christian Palestinian was ordered to leave his home at gun point with his family, take whatever he could carry and told not to come back. (no he wasn't a present absentee) He did go back later in life (as a Canadian citizen) when he was dying of cancer to ask for his home back and was arrested, beaten up by the police and deported. It's immaterial what other Arabs do, the injustice they suffered and most continue to suffer, is at the hands of Israel.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Cultural Phlosiphy - 9/22/2006 3:33:23 PM   
jesskitty


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve
If the sheep population ever woke up out of their sleep....we'd have America back.

i love that one. i think everyday, slowly in small numbers more and more people are starting to wakeup. :) but i think human nature will always repeat itself. take the news for example, everday same thing different 'actors/players'. wars have been going on for a long time, it's nothing new...i think people are able to change but right now the human character as a whole has been stagnent for generations.

(in reply to sissifytoserve)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Cultural Phlosiphy Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109