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RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 3:05:55 AM

seeksfemslave

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Meatcleaver makes a point about secular Muslims, being concerned about the antics of the backward primitive militant Islamic fundamentalists, surprisingly enough this concern exists in of all places..... Iran.

By the way, would not a secular Muslim be likely to be sentenced to death ? Certainly one who tries to leave the faith is !

I had a vague notion that the Crusades were attempts to "take over" rather than "recover" so thats something else I shall have to read about.! Maybe, maybe NOT !

Northern Gent refuses to criticise the opposition or see a major problem for the NOW and FUTURE.... as usual !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/16/2006 3:09:48 AM >

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 21

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 3:21:02 AM

NorthernSwitch11

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From: Newcastle, UK
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What would happen to you if you burned their flag in their country? then ask what would happen if they did the same to us in ours

For the last however long i can remember we have always been infidels, evil, ungodly and despite this we all just carry on with our lives. One mention of Islam in a negative way however trivial results in murders, riots, terroist attacks and ye old famous jihad against the non believers.

I could spend all day on here talking about this and for not one minute am i saying Islam is bad as like anything you cant tar everyone with the same brush. It just seems like if your not Muslim they openly say you should die and nothing is done here or abroad yet if one of us so much as says anything at all its off to court for racist charges. Anyone remember a single soul burning their flag, or an effigy of their leaders or even a riot or protest against them ...erm no. I do however know everytime someone so much as says a bad word against them its pitch forks and burning torches all round, and i thought islam was about peace and tollorence, if anyone actually sees any of this peace and tollorence let me know.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 22

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 6:05:01 AM

philosophy

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"I think he was speaking as one scholar to others with a perhaps naive lack of awareness of how his words, shorn of context, might sound to Islamic ears."

..having read the full text of his speech (available in full on the BBC website among others) i agree with this basic analysis, although i think theres no 'perhaps' about his naivity. The speech was given at his old college, to a highly academic audience.
The question here for me is one of competence. As leader of the worlds catholics the Pope is a hugely influential figure. His words can literally be interpreted by some as coming from God. To be so naive, given all that is known about Islamic sensibilities, to make this speech was very stupid. The problem is that he can not be replaced. If a politican were to blunder so spectaculary, they'd be out. All i hope is that his minders have a quiet chat with him, and get someone with a bit of political nous to start proof-reading his speeches.

Oh,. and to all those Islamophobes who have seized eagerly on this as even more evidence of a reason to start a Holy War...........well, bigotry is its own reward.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 23

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 6:35:53 AM

gooddogbenji

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OeldeWolf

The followers of Islam have spent more than 2000 years trying to convert the world to Islam by the sword. They have spent the same amount of time claiming that the insane are not only touched by allah, but are his tools and speakers, and being sure to breed them as much as possible.

Has nobody actually read the signs they carry in their protests, or noted that islam has more religious crimes punishable by death than any other religion I know of?

The pope's remarks were, as mentioned, part of a longer discussion. But as Islam has already declared jihad on the rest of the world (with particular emphasis on the West and the USA) the islamic world will doubtlessly riot and kill people over their ignorant interpretations of his remarks.

Someone in the political world had better wake up to reality and admit that the whole world is in a war with islam, and that they have been waging it with increasing vigor since about 1979, but have nevert really ever stopped waging war with the rest of the world. Nor will they ever stop. They will continue till they are either forcibly contained, or dealt with as was the cult of Shiva. And it is not just me saying it, this is what they have stated continually in every fatah and declaration of jihad/call to jihad for over 2000 years....

Remind me, when was Mohammed around? At the same time as Jesus? Or was it somewhere in the 7th century?

I would be more apt to say that Christianity has been doing so for that length of time. Muslims have been at it for 1300 years.

Either way, a bit of research would have been nice.

Yours,

benji

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Post #: 24

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 6:57:41 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreySaber

Ken, we've already had more then four crusades. ;)

Whether the modern flurry of violence can be accounted a crusade would be an interisting question. I think I favor the answer of yes.

might be you are correct on the count. Hard for me to keep count walking around in the sand in the desert with that heavy helm on.

(in reply to GreySaber)

Post #: 25

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 7:06:11 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OeldeWolf

The followers of Islam have spent more than 2000 years trying to convert the world to Islam by the sword. They have spent the same amount of time claiming that the insane are not only touched by allah, but are his tools and speakers, and being sure to breed them as much as possible.

Has nobody actually read the signs they carry in their protests, or noted that islam has more religious crimes punishable by death than any other religion I know of?

The pope's remarks were, as mentioned, part of a longer discussion. But as Islam has already declared jihad on the rest of the world (with particular emphasis on the West and the USA) the islamic world will doubtlessly riot and kill people over their ignorant interpretations of his remarks.

Someone in the political world had better wake up to reality and admit that the whole world is in a war with islam, and that they have been waging it with increasing vigor since about 1979, but have nevert really ever stopped waging war with the rest of the world. Nor will they ever stop. They will continue till they are either forcibly contained, or dealt with as was the cult of Shiva. And it is not just me saying it, this is what they have stated continually in every fatah and declaration of jihad/call to jihad for over 2000 years....

Founder of Islam and of the Mohammedan empire; born at Mecca between 569 and 571 of the common era; died June, 632, at Medina. Mohammed was a posthumous child and lost his mother when he was six years old. He then came under the guardianship of his grandfather 'Abd al-Muṭṭalib, who at his death, two years later, left the boy to the care of his son Abu Ṭalib, Mohammed's uncle. link is http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=699&letter=M

so it hasn't been 2000 years. Actually I think 2000 years ago it was the Roman that were subjucating the region.

(in reply to OeldeWolf)

Post #: 26

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 7:17:54 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

The Pope's statements were exactly right, and the actions of the Muslim rioters just proves his point.

Exactly, you would never see Christians or Hindus or Buddhists or Scientologists or any other religion get upset and riot if their beliefs or religion was quest... Wait, umm.

JM, CBW, BTYG

Sinergy

p.s. the subject line of this thread caught my eye. A few months ago I read a book called "The Bad Popes" which dealt with the Papacy during the (time of Machiavelli, my dates may be off a bit) 14th and 15th century. Brings a whole new meaning to Christian Moral Values. The Bad Popes had mistresses (or misters), wives (or husbands, yes there were a couple of female popes), assassinated people, started wars, skimmed money from the till, plotted the rise and fall of kingdoms, used excessive amounts of alcohol, etc., tortured people, etc. Most hilarious historical book I have read in years.

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(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 27

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 7:20:37 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Oh,. and to all those Islamophobes who have seized eagerly on this as even more evidence of a reason to start a Holy War...........well, bigotry is its own reward.

I would extend this to the Islamists, as well.

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(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 28

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 7:24:24 AM

philosophy

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"I would extend this to the Islamists, as well."

......agreed Level. Its not one religion or another religion thats the problem...its the extremist bigots that really screw things up.

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Post #: 29

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 7:25:11 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"I would extend this to the Islamists, as well."

......agreed Level. Its not one religion or another religion thats the problem...its the extremist bigots that really screw things up.

Yes, my friend.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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Post #: 30

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 8:38:26 AM

Level

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Pope said to be upset Muslims offended

By FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 45 minutes ago

Pope Benedict XVI "sincerely regrets" that Muslims have been offended by some of his words in a recent speech in Germany, the Vatican said Saturday — stopping short of issuing an apology the Islamic world has demanded.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060916/ap_on_re_eu/pope_muslims_28

Two churches in the West Bank were hit by firebombs Saturday, and a group claiming responsibility said it was protesting Benedict's words

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
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Post #: 31

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 8:48:02 AM

LadyEllen

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Considering that the Quran does exhort Muslims to convert by the sword, I dont see why it should be a problem to point it out, even if by way of a quote from a long time ago. Considering that the Church spread itself into northern Europe by the sword though, I dont see how any Pope can have the hypocrisy to condemn Islam for its stance.

From what I understand, the present Pope would wish to continue the inter-faith dialogue and friendship which flourished under JPII. Considering that the Quran not only undermines the basis of Christianity but also condemns as liars those we know as the disciples and apostles of Jesus, I do not understand how any such inter-faith dialogue, still less friendship, can exist.

Unless we all want to die in a war that is practically unwinnable, we have to ignore such facts though.
E

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Post #: 32

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 8:53:10 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Considering that the Quran does exhort Muslims to convert by the sword, I dont see why it should be a problem to point it out, even if by way of a quote from a long time ago. Considering that the Church spread itself into northern Europe by the sword though, I dont see how any Pope can have the hypocrisy to condemn Islam for its stance.

An overwhelming number of Christians put down the sword long ago.... something the world is still waiting on many Muslims to do. Americans can critize someone on slavery now, as we gave it up, this does not make us hypocrites.

From what I understand, the present Pope would wish to continue the inter-faith dialogue and friendship which flourished under JPII. Considering that the Quran not only undermines the basis of Christianity but also condemns as liars those we know as the disciples and apostles of Jesus, I do not understand how any such inter-faith dialogue, still less friendship, can exist.

Unless we all want to die in a war that is practically unwinnable, we have to ignore such facts though.
E

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 33

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 8:59:56 AM

Level

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London Islamist group lashes out at "tyrant" pope

47 minutes ago
Islamist leaders imprisoned in Britain, among them radical Muslim cleric Abu Qatada, branded Pope Benedict XVI a "tyrant" and called indirectly on Muslims to "destroy" their enemies.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060916/wl_uk_afp/vaticanpopeislambritainislamist_060916150903

Muslim groups in the UK have praised Pope Benedict XVI for apologising after Muslims were offended by his speech.

The Vatican said the Pope was sorry he had offended Muslims by using a quote stating Muhammad had brought only "evil and inhuman" things to the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5352040.stm

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Post #: 34

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 9:04:11 AM

LadyEllen

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Level - I dont think its so much that Christians put down the sword long ago; I think its more the case that Christianity has steadily lost credibility as being the sole valid religion in our culture due to the changes our culture has experienced in more recent times. The loss of credibility has caused us to be far more reluctant to enforce and spread Christianity than we once were.

This same broadening of minds and cultural change is what has to happen in Islam, if all these nutter fundamentalists are to be defeated. One thing is for certain, and that is that trying to encourage such change through external means as threats, suppression, negative criticism, stereotyping, invasions and so on, will only discourage it and harden attitudes.
E

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Post #: 35

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 9:08:40 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Level - I dont think its so much that Christians put down the sword long ago; I think its more the case that Christianity has steadily lost credibility as being the sole valid religion in our culture due to the changes our culture has experienced in more recent times. The loss of credibility has caused us to be far more reluctant to enforce and spread Christianity than we once were.

I agree there is some of this, but I honestly think a fair number of Christians have been "tamed" (I hate that term, but it seems to fit), and I see Islam 100-200 years behind in that. Hopefully, I'm selling them short, and they prove me wrong, Ellen.

This same broadening of minds and cultural change is what has to happen in Islam, if all these nutter fundamentalists are to be defeated. One thing is for certain, and that is that trying to encourage such change through external means as threats, suppression, negative criticism, stereotyping, invasions and so on, will only discourage it and harden attitudes.
E

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 36

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 9:16:20 AM

MarkPowers

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I think it takes a great deal of stupidity and a blind eye to think any religion was formed for a purpose other then to control people. Even in the poops carefully chosen words will expand his control over Christians and at the same time further Muslim control over Muslims. His words do exactly as planed fuel the fires of conflict between muslimanity and Christianity so both will grow and profit.

The true offense of his statement is that humanity is still ignorant enough to give these religions any power over our lives.

Prays be to Ala-mode.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 37

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 9:21:30 AM

LadyEllen

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I wish I could remember this joke properly, but it was told to me by my Czech employee when I was a little, well, tipsy. He told it much better too, and probably with a punchline.........

Its 1940 in ocupied Poland. Two German soldiers are kicking the shit out of a Polish priest lying on the ground. Their sergeant runs up and says "stop that! That priest might be Pope one day, what do you think youre doing?"

Private Ratzinger turns round and replies "what? If that damned Pole is going to be Pope, then so am I!"

E

(in reply to MarkPowers)

Post #: 38

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 9:52:48 AM

anthrosub

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Every time a new "incident" involving religion hits the news, I can't help thinking how sad the whole situation is and how it will never, ever end. Some here have read my perspective on religion in other posts so perhaps you will better understand what I'm about to say. When you're outside the whole mess looking in, it's quite different than being one of the participants.

Over 6 billion people on this planet. The vast majority follow one form of religion or another and have done so since the beginnings of civilization if not earlier. Only a handful understand what religion is and where it came from...they could help all the others as unbiased "referees" but unfortunately the devoutly religious folk see them as infidels, non-believers, or just plain evil.

In the meantime, the more fanatical members, religious institutions, and even some governments, play on religion as a tool to manipulate the masses (who are generally poor and under-educated). As a result, we have billions of people out there completely duped as to what's going on.

Take the cartoon fiasco for example. People were killed over this. There were riots in Iran over the Mohammad jokes and yet just a couple months later, the government sponsored a contest to create cartoons making fun of the Jews and the Holocaust. These people were doing the exact same thing they had just condemned the rest of the world for tolerating. What happened to seeing through to this little point?

To me religion is a failed experiment. It doesn't matter how many "good" qualities each religion has, if it creates a context that can be exploited to breed ignorance and violence even if by just a handful of extremists, then it's seriously flawed. But this will never become the status quo. People will continue to insist on the good of their beliefs and how important they are. Religious institutions will continue to dictate reality for millions of people's lives, and people will continue to live in blind ignorance of each other...even the peaceful ones.

So when I read about things like the Mohammad cartoons and the reaction to them or the recent quote by the Pope, I at once feel disgusted at humanity and at the same time laugh at the irony of it all. People squabble over the most petty things and it's their reactions to them that make them appear to be so important.

anthrosub

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Post #: 39

RE: Naughty Pope? - 9/16/2006 10:08:03 AM

juliaoceania

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I liked John Paul II, it is unfortunate that he was not immortal. He was such a tolerant person.

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Post #: 40

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