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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

-- The quotation about Islam was a relatively small part of a long address and, I think, somewhat tangential to the main thrust. I'm not entirely sure what it added, truth be told, and I'm sure Benedict now wishes he'd left it out.

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I could quite happily go the rest of my life without hearing the words 'Christian' or 'Muslim' ever again.

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I doubt that.  I'm sure he intended to piss people off.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

-- The quotation about Islam was a relatively small part of a long address and, I think, somewhat tangential to the main thrust. I'm not entirely sure what it added, truth be told, and I'm sure Benedict now wishes he'd left it out.

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ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

What do you think about the Popes recent speech and the uproar it has caused across the Muslim world? Do you think it was a misjudgement on his part to include the quote in his speech or do you think he knew it would cause outrage and he was playing on the fact that it would?

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To say the Islamic world is failing is not a statement of fact, it is your opinion. It all depends on how you measure success and failure - if success is measured in personal wealth and materialism then you may be right but if measured in moral fibre you could quite easily be wrong.

Actually it was a statement put out by a committee of muslim intellectuals that was widely reported on BBC World Service along with extensive interviws with the said intellectuals.
 
Their main concern was the censorship of books and the lack of intellectual scholarship translated particularly into Arabic.
 
Take out oil and the Arab world export less to the rest of the world than Finland.
 
You have to have your head in the sand not to accept a lot of the problems in the muslim world are to do with poverty and lack of education through censorship imposed by Islamic governments and religious authorities.

Also, you say if Islam embraced the modern world - well, the modern Christian-led world of rampant consumerism is not necessarily one that other cultures should be falling over themselves to embrace.

There is more to the western world than consumerism but I bet if you give people in the Islamic world the option of living in the west they would jump at it. Hell, they can't wait to get here.

Your final sentence - you are forgetting that it is the Christian West that is slaughtering muslims as opposed to the other way around. So, maybe they should be far more wary of us?

Christian west? I would just say the west. Iraq is not motivated through Christianity. The neocons in washington are just as likely to be Jews as Christians and Britain had a Jewish foreign minister at the time of the Iraqi invasion, though most people suspect he was against the invasion.

The Pope has form for this sort of thing. Only recently he was pushing for the EU constitution to include the phrase "Christian Europe" and he was vehemently against Turkey's entry into the EU. He quite clearly believes in separatism rather than inclusion and, in my opinion, this is a dangerous concept to advocate as the implication is that Islam will poison Christian values.

The pope is just one of many voices opposed to extending the EU into the middle east and north Africa. This opposition is not just against Islamic countries being part of the EU but also Israel because they are not geographically part of Europe.
 
However, aren't you against the EU per se?

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

We're talking about Turkey - not the Middle East or North Africa. It is clear that the Pope sees Islam as a threat to the Christian way of life as he targetted Turkey and wanted the words "Christian Europe" inserted into the EU constitution.

He was not the only one wanting the words 'Christian Europe' inserted in the EU constitution but since he is the leader of  the Catholic church it is hardly surprising. It never happened because not all Europeans are catholic and not all consider themselves christians but we do live in a democracy so have to accept alternative views. Since Turkey is a large Islamic country and would be the second largest country in terms of population and one that is struggling with its own fundementalists it's only natural there should be an unease about their membership. Turkey also has human rights problems. While western Turkey is cosmopolitan in outlook, eastern Turkey is not and is very much a part of the ME. Turkey's military also is unduly powerful politically and their stance in upholding a secular country in the face of growing Islamic fundementalism doesn't bode well for the future. Britain is very pro Turkey because it sees Turkey as a way of stopping a deeper integration of Europe and suits Britains vision of a more shallow, decentralised Europe and a way of preventing a Franco-German view of Europe which is more integrationist.

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ORIGINAL: GreySaber

First, "Seeksfem" I have to correct your grammer.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


I will take that bet. It's an arrogant stance to take when you consider the state of this place and, from what I hear, certain parts of the US. Many muslims see us as morally bankrupt so don't assume the majority want to join us in this state of mind.

Many people in the west see Islam as morally bankrupt, that is an opinion. If you fail to see the arrogance of many muslims and their true faith and their treatment of women and heretics, perhaps you should go and live there. I certainly don't see people queuing up to return and I do see queues trying to get here, legally and illegally.

While I am no fan of consumerism, give me consumerism and free speach rather than blind adherence to the superstitions of a prophet.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Turkey also has human rights problems
 
We have human rights problems! We have a Government that said nothing about the bombing of Palestinians, a cabinet who to a man/woman were as quiet as mice on the issue. We are part of a coalition slaughtering people on the grounds of economic exploitation. Weren't you talking about US and British war crimes in another thread?

Importing more human rights issues is not a solution to the problem.
 
Well, we assume Iraq is about economic exploitation for there to be any rational sense to it but I fear it is costing more than is earned through exploitation.

When is the penny going to drop that it suits the Government and the right-wing elements to point the finger at everyone else because it distracts us from what our Governments are doing and they are free to go about their business?

The problem the left has is that no one really trusts it because it is too dictatorial and people feel their freedom is more secure with the centre right even if that has to include some distasteful right wing elements.
 

We don't live in a democracy. The majority of us do not support Iraq yet out Government is there and doing what it likes with the support of the minority view - this is not a democracy. We need to get to grips with what is happening here rather than blindly getting lost in minor issues such as multi-culturalism, race and immigration.

Blair was voted in but I agree the system sucks. If the majority of the population was for the death penalty (which it is according to the polls) and the government went along with public opinion, would you still claim it was undemocratic?