RE: Watered down BDSM

RE: Watered down BDSM (Full Version)

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TreSwank -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 7:24:00 AM)
Brother, All good-lovin' sexual deviants just need a place to go. The CollarMe.com Peace Bus..............rolling soon through your hometown!!!!!!!

ScooterTrash -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 7:38:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: But until the bdsm community can agree on definitions that at least generally describe the terms we use to describe ourselves this will continue to be a problem. Fundamentalism within WIITWD is impossible to enforce because it is a private dynamic defined by each person, couple or group. Even if we had a consensus written in stone, there would always be those who would do it their own way. OK..enough with the "do it their way crowd", that is partly what I am implying is the entire issue. Someone wants to go do their own thing, I am fine with that and wish them well, but I draw the line in my own mind at what point it is or is not BDSM. If they want to run around in a latex kitty outfit with a diaper on and bark at the moon, good for them! But if that is ALL they have in common with BDSM is that they are into an offshoot kink that has nothing to do with Bondage, if they are not interested in a D/s or M/s relationship and if they have no desire to get into any sadistic or masochist behavior or any other aspect of BDSM that could be readily recognized, then why are they ducking under the BDSM umbrella in the first place. NO, I am not saying we have to exclude anyone because what they do is not what I do (or you do), I am saying that if they have nothing to do with BDSM by any definition or stretch of the imagination that the majority of the community could readily recognize, why are they clinging onto saying this is where they belong, when they obviously don't. Why do I care? Because I am in a BDSM relationship and prefer to associate, discuss topics and generally converse both on-line and in real life with folks in similar situations with similar likes and dislikes and experiences. Certainly we can co-exist and relate to each other when we have something in common, but when someone is completely off in left field and has no common ground with the BDSM community as a whole, it is simply dysfunctional for them to try to fit in.

LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 7:44:27 AM)
Dear LordODiscipline, Ladies and Gentlemen; My intent was to establish, as implied in the previous post of seeing Suzanne/onestandingstill at The Crucible or BR, a civil and gracious enviorment for all who come and visit, as well as to confirm the fact that Suzanne/onestandingstill was not a want-to-be and behind the monitor sort of individual. I enjoy helping people period. I would stand by you if the need came to be. We're all adults and we're all equipped in dealing with adult issues. That said, it has been my observations in this lifestyle in general, that everybody has an opinion about everything. At times, there will be cases where the answers are correct on both sides and there are no wrongs/right answers, per example of the half filled glass. Some will view it half full or half empty. I will proffer for consideration though, that BDSM has become watered down because the lack of patience of individuals from old timers to the want-to-be individuals. When people have had enough, often times they take their marbles and go home per se. Which leaves those behind to permit the patient ones who prey on the weakness of the BDSM to be uninhibited. With the fact that in the majority of opinions posted thus far, that indeed BDSM has been watered down and the 'gripes' about it has been offered and why, the questions left unanswered by the community in a larger sense, is how to find a remedy. All remedies come from individuals offering opinions, popular or not. But, at least it is a dialog/communication. The desire on my part, is to see those communications that we, in general terms, may agree to or disagree to will be treated as to disagree without becoming disagreeable; especially when we're dealing in a text format. In summary, you and I are not "The Word," the "end all" of many BDSM issues, nor is anybody else. However, our words may cause consideration and or inspiration to which may cause progress. This is all I personally can hope for. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 8:00:37 AM)
Dear ScooterTrash, Ladies and Gentlemen; BDSM indeed has been dysfunctional for quite some time. In my mind's eye, the elements which constituted what were under the Bondage, the S&M, the D/s and or M/s interaction have indeed become diluted. Unfortunately, due to the nature of BDSM it is a venue which others are lumped and tossed into the BDSM pile, due to the vast tolerances documented in historical past to the present. Much like conjoined twins, to separate BDSM in a more pure sense from non-BDSM individuals has been met with great doubt, as a huge massive surgery. It is bad as it is, when the criminal behavior with elements of BDSM is lumped into the consensual adult lifestyle we seek, which is a mutual agreed upon adult activity, with the spirit of intent of being non-criminal in nature. The problem is--where do the foundation standards for the elements of BDSM begin and or end, as to seperate non-BDSM from BDSM. The Criminal BDSM has been seperated by "spirit of intent," or "conspiracy to inflict criminal elements." This is something the community at large needs to savor in thought and seek the remedies to form a more clearer line of distinction. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

LordODiscipline -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 8:04:23 AM)
*Lady Hugs:* *See that is the thing (as mentioned in my last posting)...* *I am not seeking redress or solution - simply stating an opinion.* *This is the same, whether it is meeting Suzanne or expressing myself.* *I do not desire to "fix" people - as people do not engender repair or correction without any sort of enforcement/authority. People may only be given opportunity and direction.* *I state my opinion - some people pay attention and 'get it' - some people find me offensive and choose to ignore or deride my opinion as 'not proper'.* *All we might do (in any interaction involving humans and other animals) is to direct them to where we believe they should go...* *As someone mentioned: we cannot force anything on anyone... they have to choose it for themselves.* *If someone chooses (especially from the start) that my opnion is worthless, then I do not need to have patience with them (or, to meet them).* *Life is much too short - as is their understanding of life in general and ability to deal with other people. And, I would not have it any other way - as I do not want to be friendly with everyone in the world... that would be boring - and, there is no reason I should compromise myself in order to ensure that everyone "likes" me. I chose not to see the glass as half full or half empty - I choose to fill it up.* *My thought is that we should never settle for medocrity in anything - including (and, expecially) the people in our lives.* *And, narrow minds are definitively mediocre and a waste of life.* *Your milage apparently varies.* *Sincerely:* ~J

Level -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 8:07:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline *INterestingly enough -* *I do not mind that the "alternative lifestyles" are involved/becoming involved/have always been involved - I am more piqued at the influence the idiocy on line has in who we are and what we do.* *The entire reversal of dominance and submission over the last decades (From "I say, you do" to "A dominant cherishes his submissive and protects <read: coddles"> her") is what turns my stomache.* *Where it impacts the actual dynamic is where it is irritating to me.* ~J Of course, a combination of "I say, you do" and "cherishing" is entirely possible.

catize -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 8:29:10 AM)
quote: Certainly we can co-exist and relate to each other when we have something in common, but when someone is completely off in left field and has no common ground with the BDSM community as a whole, it is simply dysfunctional for them to try to fit in. I can agree that it is dysfunctional for them to try to fit in but attempting to explain that to someone who merely has a particular fetish, or who thinks calling themself a dominant will get them easy no strings sex, usually falls on deaf ears. Perhaps you and I only diverge because you believe there should be a solution to the problem and I don't believe a solution is possible.

ScooterTrash -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 11:16:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: Certainly we can co-exist and relate to each other when we have something in common, but when someone is completely off in left field and has no common ground with the BDSM community as a whole, it is simply dysfunctional for them to try to fit in. I can agree that it is dysfunctional for them to try to fit in but attempting to explain that to someone who merely has a particular fetish, or who thinks calling themself a dominant will get them easy no strings sex, usually falls on deaf ears. Perhaps you and I only diverge because you believe there should be a solution to the problem and I don't believe a solution is possible. I regret that what you say is true in many instances, where a self proclaimed Dominant, or submissive for that matter, that has no real interest in BDSM activities will use it as a ploy to "get a little". Of course this tactic falls through after a short period of time, but perhaps only after they have received their instant gratification. That however may be an entirely different problem altogether. No..there likely is not certain solution per se, but the fact that there are many who have the same mindset does show that there is an issue of sorts with the watering down or intermingling of unrelated activities. So do we throw them out of our little club (using that term very loosely), so to speak, probably not? But I would hope that in time, if their fetish or activity gains popularity, they can establish their own banner to dance under, where others who enjoy their own form of expression can mingle and discuss topics relative to their particular lifestyle choices. In the meantime, they are forced to relate to a fairly well established lifestyle that does not usually follow their way of thinking or fit into their niche. It's not that we disapprove necessarily, we just don't have anything to offer to them.

CreoleCook -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 1:58:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline *I am not seeking redress or solution - simply stating an opinion.* *I state my opinion - some people pay attention and 'get it' - some people find me offensive and choose to ignore or deride my opinion as 'not proper'.* yet you do not allow others to share their opinions, without you shredding it for not being in agreement with your own.... quote: *And, narrow minds are definitively mediocre and a waste of life.* *Your milage apparently varies.* *Sincerely:* ~J Discipline, while I understand from whence you came, I do not understand your reasoning here. You claim open mindedness, yet deride when someone else offers a different opinion not similiar to your own. Yes, the "Lifestyle" has changed in the past 20 years. Yes, the variations, and nuances where D/s and BDSM are involved are varied, and different in A LOT of people's eyes. Yes, the Old Guard may be a basis of where we started, in the generalized scheme of things, but... No, we cannot go back to the past. This is the 21st Century... open those eyes a bit more, or get left behind. Tis a choice we all make everyday of our lives. CC

LordODiscipline -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 2:53:21 PM)
quote: Of course, a combination of "I say, you do" and "cherishing" is entirely possible. *Yup - I would not infer otherwise... in fact that is may very well be what Julia was stating she had in her world.* ~J

LordODiscipline -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 3:30:59 PM)
quote: yet you do not allow others to share their opinions, without you shredding it for not being in agreement with your own.... *On the contrary - if you use those reasoning skills for "good" Luke, you will see that I only "return salvo" for those who would disparage myself or my opinion without cause...* *Besides, it is silly to say that I would not "allow" someone to state their opinion* *- it is not a matter of choice on these boards.* *People can state the most innane things out here and be taken seriously!* *Nes Pas?* quote: Discipline, while I understand from whence you came, I do not understand your reasoning here. You claim open mindedness, yet deride when someone else offers a different opinion not similiar to your own. Yes, the "Lifestyle" has changed in the past 20 years. Yes, the variations, and nuances where D/s and BDSM are involved are varied, and different in A LOT of people's eyes. Yes, the Old Guard may be a basis of where we started, in the generalized scheme of things, but... No, we cannot go back to the past. This is the 21st Century... open those eyes a bit more, or get left behind. Tis a choice we all make everyday of our lives. CC *Ahh the cautionary note of the modern man to his antecedants...* *Thank you. I am warned of my impending obsolescence~!* *As I have stated in several postings (you have to read it all to understand it) I was "bitching". It is not something I intended to have solved OR that I was seeking to change...* *It simply annoys me...* *Much like fingernails on a chalk board, Musak, and being given insipid advice in a condescending way annoys me.... yah know?!* <---New Yawk expression ;) *Not fer nuttin' - I appreciate you stopping to give advice to this 'antiquated man'... but, I do live in the here and now and the advice is definitively unwarranted.* One of the things that reminds me of this is the fact that I do not consider valid the opinion that we all 'should simply get along'.... or, that '...dominants MUST protect their submissives'.... or that 'submissives have some <magical> rights' that supercede their duties in the relationship and the constitution. *These things annoy me - but, they do not keep me awake at night... and, I am not forming any coalition to stop them in the near future.* I am realistic and definitively mature enough to known that these petty things are not going to change simply because they annoy me - and, my intention in joining into thiss fracas of a posting was simply to express my annoyance in a simple way and move on. Little did I suspect that I would become the poster child for the "Abusive Dominant of the Week Award" - and, attempt to be pilloried by those who believe we should cherish and coddle human adults (op cit) as though they were mentally deficient. But, it is all good - because when all is said and done - it does not matter one iota... and, my minor bitch is still a 'minor bitch' and not the world shattering view point that everyone seems to think it is... *I will go on living as I have always done... and, people will delude themselves as they see fit for as long as they can.* ~J *PS: "Discipline" is not a name...* *my name is Joseph* *- or KJ* *- or KJPS Howe...* *...but, you had me confused with that whole "Discipline" thing...* *After all - I have had it implied that I am old.* *PSS: Are you actually inferring that you have been in leather for twenty years?*

CreoleCook -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 6:11:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline *PS: "Discipline" is not a name...* *my name is Joseph* *PSS: Are you actually inferring that you have been in leather for twenty years?* Joseph works for me... just not fond of calling anyone "Lord" and to answer the query, no... only 16 years, not 20... started as a bottom at the ripe age of 20 years old, and was later taught to become the dominant I am today. Creole

Sinergy -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 8:11:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline *Whenever someone states that:* *1. They have "Honor"* *2. Follow a chivralic lifestyle* *3. Are a gentleman/lady* *4. insist everyone must follow some canned listing of "Rights" or "Dutys"* *5. their submissive requires more of their undivided attention than a mentally handicapped adult would* *6. or, extol some esoteric and seldom realized code as their way of living La Vida Loca* *I cringe knowing full well that* *a. This person does not have a clue* *b. does not actually believe what (s)he is saying (the harder and more insistent they are, the more they are lieing about it)* *c. They are so full of poop their eyes are brown.* *d. their submissive is a succubus bent on the destruction of the dominant's soul <ref: South Park>* The word would be spelled "chivalric." This goes back to the concept of chivalry as described in medieval literature. I am a bit puzzled why the idea that a truly Dominant person lives their life fighting incessantly for the underdog and/or an ideal they believe is bigger than themself would be so upsetting to you. My eyes are brown. They have green flecks in them. I am not sure what that has to do with anything, but you brought it up. Please clarify. I do not really care what you think of my ideals, but I find it rather rude of you to be so dismissive of them. However, that is your choice and I dont really care whether you agree with my viewpoint (From what I have read, you do not) or even understand (From what I have read, you do not) it. I wish you well doing whatever it is that you do. While I would hope that you would be capable of respecting what I do, I am not emotionally involved in whether or not you are capable of respecting either me or what I do. Enjoy your evening. Sinergy

Owned1 -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/24/2006 11:26:35 PM)
I want to toss in a few cents here. If we go back to the op the question being has BDSM become watered down. I believe it is being watered down. With the advent of the internet there is much more access to this world of kink. It is seen by many (male and female all orientations) as a box of cookies to enjoy for a bit then go back to thier boring life. As we have seen there are many who feel it is not cheating to play online, and the opinion seems if I play online in the wonderful world of kink I can get what I want when I want. Then there are those young 20 somethings who are lost without a cause to fight for and a bit too much extra cash in their pockets. They are also internet savy so they find this world o kink and ta da something to do on the weekend ~ something different where they can go and buy funky clothes, funny toy thingys and play. I have actually become more selective in the fetish nights I attend as I noticed there were more and more 20 somethings with their toys and fancy dress playing. Now I dont mean playing as in scening I mean ~look at my new toy, let me hit you with it, ooh thats cool can I hit you with it now?~ They have no idea what they are doing, no idea what harm can be caused and no idea of power exchange. Perhaps we will see the evolution of those who are living this life to find themselves a slice of the world where the players cannot find them. Will we see the creation of more private groups where you need approval for membership rather than just pay the entrance fee or wear fetish clothes and pay the fee? I think this is where we are going. As well there are more and more staying home and simply living BDSM 24/7 in their own private homes and lives. As I said, just a few cents of mine tossed into the fray. Owned

LordODiscipline -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/25/2006 3:04:43 AM)
quote: The word would be spelled "chivalric." If you look closer I am sure there shall be more typos... my spelling is pretty good - my typing stinks. quote: This goes back to the concept of chivalry as described in medieval literature. And, denotes horsemen and their social mores... However - they and the times, rules, and lives they led never existed as they were portrayed in those tomes - I know. I am fairly well read and know fiction when I see it. IE: Dom Quiote is a great example of sarcastic response to such tales (from the 1500's, I believe) and, the first example of the truly modern novel (Books 1 AND 2 - although #2 was written in response to an usurper who claimed to have penned #1) *So, as I am sympatico with Cervantes, I believe am in good company in these beliefs.* quote: I am a bit puzzled why the idea that a truly Dominant person lives their life fighting incessantly for the underdog and/or an ideal they believe is bigger than themself would be so upsetting to you. It is not... you completely have that skewed. It does not "upset me at all". If it makes you happy, please - do not miss a step in this. I am exceedingly happy for you. However, I do find it annoying that so many people seem to believe that stating that "it is so" (repetetively - - ad nauseum) actually makes it "so". It does not. And, I have learned over the years that the inverse is usually the case - the more they rant about the amount of "honor" they have, the less they actually exhibit. quote: My eyes are brown. They have green flecks in them. I am not sure what that has to do with anything, but you brought it up. Please clarify. It is an old joke... I am sorry if it is not obvious for you - however, it (like many jokes) does not bear explanation... quote: I do not really care what you think of my ideals, but I find it rather rude of you to be so dismissive of them. I do not know you... If you really want to take my thoughts personally and have this upset you, please do feel free to never speak to me again... It is "OK" - I deserve it! quote: However, that is your choice and I dont really care whether you agree with my viewpoint (From what I have read, you do not) or even understand (From what I have read, you do not) it. *See!! There you go... (But, if you truly did not care, you would not be whining about it here... think about that).* quote: I wish you well doing whatever it is that you do. *That is because you are a good person.* quote: While I would hope that you would be capable of respecting what I do, I am not emotionally involved in whether or not you are capable of respecting either me or what I do. Enjoy your evening. Sinergy *Thank you - I did.* *Now - to the point:* *I did not insult people who believe they should live their lives honorably.* *You are not reading what I wrote - but, are coloring in the spaces left vacant in your mind.* I stated that I believe that people who constantly scream that they have honor seldom really do have honor... and, the amount of honor theyhave is usually the inverse of the times they feel the need to tell everyone that "they have honor". *Unless I am describing you, there is no insult levied - and, if I am describing you - then you may feel insulted - and, I will still have a good evening.* *Thank you for your consideration in this.* ~J

KnightofMists -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/25/2006 4:48:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash So...has the BDSM lifestyle become too much of a catch-all for all the alternative lifestyles. I know many oppose the term "lifestyle", but that really is what it is in a way..we live life and have some rather odd (and interesting) ways of doing things that don't fit into society's mainstream model for behavior. BUT, does that mean that we have become the catch-all for everyone who drifts out of the center lane. No offense to anyone who fits the following categories and I do realize there is some crossover occasionally (gezz, we're poly but into BDSM activities), but where does cross-dressing, furries, infantilism, age play, etc, etc. come into the whole BDSM "big picture". Anyone can have fetishes, but that does that mean they are automatically in the BDSM lifestyle by default? Where do we draw the line? People put alot of things into that box called BDSM. Some disagree with what is in the box and some think other things could be included. So, where do we draw the line? We broaden the phrase to something like "Alternative Lifestyles". Seems to make a lot of people happy since it fits alot more in the box. But then their are those that like to feel seperate and distinct in what they do and perfer a narrow definition/label. So, where do we draw the line? We seperate ourselves from the mainstream or the vanilla... but really what are they. Is it the Southern Baptist church group.... just who many of them see peope out of the mainstream and living Alternative Lifestyle... or more to the point... sinful ones. Or maybe we look at the christian groups as a whole as the mainstream and everyone outside of that is living an Alternative Lifestyle. Or maybe we just call the Relgious Morality as a whole the mainstream of society and everyone else is the Alternative Lifestyle So, where do we draw the line? At the end of day the lines are drawn from our individual perspectives..... sometimes our lines will be similiar and sometimes they will be different. Personally.... i don't care where others want to draw the lines. I already know my lines and that is good enough for me. I am content with each to their own.

LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/25/2006 5:44:10 AM)
Dear Owned1, Ladies and Gentlemen; Indeed, I am seeing in the metropolitan area of Washington, DC those who are 20 somethings, who bounce and flounce around in a most distracting way. Reminds me of Parris Hilton and her side kick Ms. Nichole Ritchie. They're so wrapped up in themselves and are social butterflies. They're best suited by the kinky party rather than a dungeon. The distraction is awful. Playing to the crowd as the bottom/submissive is placed in a compromised position, as the TOP/Dominant is flailing away but their eyes are everywhere but on their submissive/bottom they're flogging. It is my observation, that those who take things seriously, wish to leave such venues that don't put a stop to such behaviors, as money talks and seriousness stops. Personally, I don't wish to witness a train wreck when the social butterflies hurt someone badly, that have an attitude like little girls and boys, instead of adults still needing to learn the ABCs of safe play. So, there has been a huge leap away from dungeon clubs by old timers, as they rather hang with those who know what they're doing and know how to act/behave. It use to be a time, where Dungeon Masters had some starch in their spine (male and female dungeon masters), and stopped the silly, distracting behaviors and dangerous play. But, I've seen this deterioration start in the mid-1990s and it just gets worse. The dollar speaks more than drawing the line of what is safe, sane, risk aware interactive participation. Unfortunately, the ones who suffer are the ones who go to dungeons to learn/practice seriously and not make it a social distraction. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

ScooterTrash -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/25/2006 6:24:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists At the end of day the lines are drawn from our individual perspectives..... sometimes our lines will be similiar and sometimes they will be different. Personally.... i don't care where others want to draw the lines. I already know my lines and that is good enough for me. I am content with each to their own. To a point Knight, I tend to agree, but it does seem like some round pegs trying to fit into a square hole at times. You see it at munches, you see it at play parties and you see it on the forum boards here as well. Is there an answer and where do you draw the line? I wish I had the wisdom to answer that...I do feel that by trying to fit into the BDSM space when it's not a good fit, would be disheartening to some who wish to associate with others that had similar interests. Maybe we are the right community and need to set them a space aside in a corner, but is that fair either? For myself personally, no, it doesn't affect me either way, other than hinder communication with "those" on occasion. But I still can't help but feel they need to exercise some organizational skills and see if they can't develop their own community, no matter how small that might be. At the end of the day..I'm sure it's all good...but perhaps it could be better.

ScooterTrash -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/25/2006 6:34:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHugs It is my observation, that those who take things seriously, wish to leave such venues that don't put a stop to such behaviors, as money talks and seriousness stops. Personally, I don't wish to witness a train wreck when the social butterflies hurt someone badly, that have an attitude like little girls and boys, instead of adults still needing to learn the ABCs of safe play. Hugs...brilliant observation and so true. I regret that you a dead on when it seems that the only prerequisite required is a credit card to go to a major event and play in public. Luckily..the intimidation factor usually kicks in, they don't scene and so most do not make their mistakes in the public (our public) eye. In a way, I almost wish they would so someone would say something, but as you noted, many DMs don't want to create too many waves with the paying folks, so they overlook the inexperience and lack of understanding. At some point you would hope the message gets through so they understand it's not play in the same manner as playing on a playground, but is dead serious and damned near an art..not something to be taken lightly and without lots of forethought.

KnightofMists -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/25/2006 8:16:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash , but it does seem like some round pegs trying to fit into a square hole at times. you do realize that it is much easier to fit these round pegs into these square holes, of course it is not a snug fit. Which is maybe why some fetish etc seem to slip within certain groups such as BDSM or this or that. But, it's when that Square peg is trying to push itself into a round hole that we seem to have the problems. These square pegs seem to upset the group's cohesiveness and can lead to alot group fracturing. Maybe that is what is required at times... a group to fracture into smaller goups... But again where is the line.... I guess to me... it's when it upsets the communities cohesiveness.

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