RE: Watered down BDSM (Full Version)

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Amaros -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/27/2006 8:16:55 AM)

I would say that without really thinking about it explicitly, I sort draw distinction between "hard", 24/7, or possibly "lifestyle" D/s, and a continuum of less immersive forms, up to and including, the players (which can get pretty "hard" - gang banging and Bukakke are largely a forms of intensive objectification for example), Dominance without sex, and "soft" weekend warriors with fur cuffs and light spanking, cosplay,  etc. - it's all "BSDM", or at least related, but it's not all neccessarily the same thing.

This is probobly the distinction being made when I see "Old School", or "Old Guard" in a profile - we've already had a thread drawing distinctions between these two, but perhaps a bit more explicit definition is required.

Part of the cohesiveness of a community revolves around it's language, i.e., terms need to have meaning across the various subcultures that make up a community this large and diverse (and growing). In short, after reading through this thread again, it strikes me that we primarily have a language problem.

Words, and/or phrases are symbolic representations of concepts - these may change over time: "marriage" was originally a term used in metallurgy to describe the creation of alloys, i.e., two disseperate elements combined into a cohesive whole - in the current vernacular, it means a legal contract between to individuals for mutual advantage:  permanence , in the metallurgical sense, is implicit, but no longer explicitly included in the definition.

I've concluded that this thread, and similar ones, have at their core, a concern over the dilution of the language itself, making it difficult to communicate without lengthy explanations and qualifications, and blur the lines between what it is you do, and whatever it is that they might be doing.

It might be useful to simply start with a list of common terms that connote certain aspects of the practice of BDSM - nearly every term that is taxonomic in nature, rather than descriptive of a specific practice has such connotations, including D/s, Master, Slave, Top, Bottom, etc., and well as "lifestyle", "Old School", etc.

Some practices of course, imply a certain level of intensity, "single tails", etc.

I think it does no-one any good to blur these terms to the point that they lose their specific meanings, it only leads to confusion and irritation.

My two cents, but I think it's the language itself that's getting watered down, and it might be fun to just lay these terms out there from time to time, and see what develops, with a mind to maintaining the original meanings as closely as possible, and perhaps inventing new terms as apporopriate.

"BDSM", as it has been observed, has evolved into a blanket term that appear to include a myriad of interactions and levels of intensity - i.e., it's become roughly synonomous with "kinky", albeit with agonistic overtones, while "kinky" itself retains it's hedonic connotations.

Part of this perhaps stems from the fact that the term BDSM itself consists of two distinct parts: one can have the BD without the SM, and vice versa. BD has more hedonic implications, whereas SM has distinctly agonistic ones.

Beat me to it: http://www.collarchat.com/m_604021/tm.htm




LordODiscipline -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/27/2006 7:45:17 PM)

quote:

would put my money on Amusement rather than Annoyance....

but that's me.... I could be wrong. _____________________________

Knight of Mists

 
Well - if he is taking me as humerous - he would finally be reading me right... as I seldom take myself as serioulsy as he apparently does.
 
~J




LordODiscipline -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/27/2006 7:46:40 PM)

quote:

have a list of individuals I grant the power to alter my emotional state. You are not on that list.

Enjoy having me as your hero, but I personally have no emotional attachment to whether you consider me a hero or not.

Sinergy


Wow - you are my hero...
 
I lit a candle to you earlier today... and was struck by how much the lightening hurt.

~J




LordODiscipline -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/27/2006 8:00:55 PM)

quote:

I say those that feel no need to protect their subs from things are indeed watering down the BDSM dynamic.
Those self professed Doms who do not have integrity or honor in their possession of subs are indeed polluting the face to face as well as cyber lifestyles.
If more Doms lead appropriately the system would not be as bogged down with the pathetic things that we are commonly seeing these days.
I admit many sub/slaves also have poor views of their position. and what their place is and are equally responsible of the bar being set so low.

To me expecting a Dom to be a man of maturity, integrity, his word & to live his life with honor has nothing to do with a sub topping him. It's the path she wants to follow him on. Many Doms lead these good subs right off cliffs.
I think those that expect him to live up to HIS OWN SELF PROFESSED position are indeed not topping him or trying to control him.
It's that if he can't control himself or keep his word he chose to give how can he control or lead others.
That is a huge issue in watering down this life.

suzanne

1. Sniping is not very pretty dear.
2. Once again you are denying others their thoughts and beliefs as far as their dynamics go - remember - you and Lord Colm are not the arbiters of all things BDSM
3. Please try to have an original thought at some point.
4. I have not led a submissive off a cliff yet - however, if you were willing to volunteer - we could see what might be done!
 
~J
 
PS: for those who believe in the holy writ of the Barroom Bouncer's Handbook - and, the edict of complete and utter control -
 
If a dominant's puppy is run over by an out of control 16 wheeler in a full skid (leaving nothing but a collar and a nasty skid mark on the pavement - can the dominant shed a tear... or (even) cry?
 
...or, is he relegated to simply and smugly picking up the collar and tossing it casually over the guard rail while quoting the book?
 
 
Inquiring minds want to know.<---but, not a great deal - as that might be considered losing some control.




Amaros -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/28/2006 9:32:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

I say those that feel no need to protect their subs from things are indeed watering down the BDSM dynamic.

I am moved to ask, from what, specifically? Do you have concrete examples or is this a hypothetical? Epidemic, disease, abuse, getting your toes stepped on, what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
Those self professed Doms who do not have integrity or honor in their possession of subs are indeed polluting the face to face as well as cyber lifestyles.

Again, this sounds like a hypothetical, and in theory, I can agree - there are overtones here of both political adgenda and personal vendetta - so it becomes very difficult to ascertain just who, or what precisley, you are talking about.
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
If more Doms lead appropriately the system would not be as bogged down with the pathetic things that we are commonly seeing these days.

"Things"? What things?
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
I admit many sub/slaves also have poor views of their position. and what their place is and are equally responsible of the bar being set so low.

Perhaps you could expand on what you believe this place to be, and where the bar should be set.
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
To me expecting a Dom to be a man of maturity, integrity, his word & to live his life with honor has nothing to do with a sub topping him. It's the path she wants to follow him on. Many Doms lead these good subs right off cliffs.

A bit more specific, but still to vague to be useful. What cliffs?
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
I think those that expect him to live up to HIS OWN SELF PROFESSED position are indeed not topping him or trying to control him.
It's that if he can't control himself or keep his word he chose to give how can he control or lead others.
That is a huge issue in watering down this life.

suzanne


Are you saying men and women often have different needs and adgendas and one or the other is generally trying to co-opt the other into their various schemes? Do tell.

It's difficult to call it an issue when nobody but you seems to know what it is, exactly. Spit it out, don't be shy.




KnightofMists -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/28/2006 11:02:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel


As to the topic at hand. KnightofMists asked "where do we draw the line?"
 


I also stated that I don't care were others draw the line.  In other words... What is the point of drawing the lines?  I draw my own... I don't really care what lines you draw... their yours if it works for you.... good... but your lines do not define or label me for me.  I label me for me... and I will label others for me as well.. just as I expect others will label me for themselves.  Pity those that seek to be one the side of the line that some one else has drawn.





bignipples2share -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/29/2006 1:45:18 AM)

quote:

ShiftedJewel

With that reasoning behind me... I believe that if a persons kink has absolutely nothing to do with BDSM (bondage, disipline, sadism and masochism) then they do NOT fit under this little umbrella. (I also believe that an M/s relationship can exist without BDSM) That doesn't mean they don't fit any place, I'm sure they do, it just isn't here.

 
Okay, but there are so many who are into BDSM who also are into Master/Slave, would it be wrong to exclude those who are looking for that dynamic? Aren’t they practicing the discipline part?
 
LadyMorgan, I thought the D was either part of a two letter abbreviation for Bondage, or that the D was for discipline. If the latter were the case, I think if you’re disciplining someone, you’re also dominating them?
 
quote:

ShiftedJewel

A lot of people do indeed include D/s in to the mix... but note... I never said anything about D/s... I said "M/s"... and to me there is a difference.

Yes, I also think there is a difference, but do they never discipline their slave for some perceived infraction? Don’t they dominate them?
 
I think exclusion would be wrong.
 
~Big




twicehappy -> RE: Watered down BDSM (9/29/2006 5:14:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

quote:

ShiftedJewel

A lot of people do indeed include D/s in to the mix... but note... I never said anything about D/s... I said "M/s"... and to me there is a difference.

Yes, I also think there is a difference, but do they never discipline their slave for some perceived infraction? Don’t they dominate them?


Do Scooter and Jewel dominate me? Absolutely they do!
 
I live where they want, i do not work as this is their desire, i wear or do not wear certain articles of clothing at their command, i care for them personally, i care for their house and their possessions, i have sex with then when and how they order,  i do what ever they command.
 
Do they discipline me? They could if they so desired.
 
If i have displeased them they prefer to discover why, did i know they would be displeased, is it an issue i am struggling with, was there a reason i chose to do A when they instructed me to perform B?
 
Then as a group we come up with ways to correct the underlying problem.
 
Their displeasure is the greatest punishment for me.
 
Are you asking if they whip me because i have done something wrong?
 
They could if they wanted to but they do not.
 
BDSM, in this house at least, is for mutual pleasure; to whip me for being displeasing would be the equivalent of punishing a thief by letting them keep what they stole. 
 
Is this what you are asking or am I off base here?
 




bignipples2share -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/3/2006 3:07:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

quote:

ShiftedJewel

A lot of people do indeed include D/s in to the mix... but note... I never said anything about D/s... I said "M/s"... and to me there is a difference.

Yes, I also think there is a difference, but do they never discipline their slave for some perceived infraction? Don’t they dominate them?


Do Scooter and Jewel dominate me? Absolutely they do!
 
I live where they want, i do not work as this is their desire, i wear or do not wear certain articles of clothing at their command, i care for them personally, i care for their house and their possessions, i have sex with then when and how they order,  i do what ever they command.
 
Do they discipline me? They could if they so desired.
 
If i have displeased them they prefer to discover why, did i know they would be displeased, is it an issue i am struggling with, was there a reason i chose to do A when they instructed me to perform B?
 
Then as a group we come up with ways to correct the underlying problem.
 
Their displeasure is the greatest punishment for me.
 
Are you asking if they whip me because i have done something wrong?
 
They could if they wanted to but they do not.
 
BDSM, in this house at least, is for mutual pleasure; to whip me for being displeasing would be the equivalent of punishing a thief by letting them keep what they stole. 
 
Is this what you are asking or am I off base here?
 

No, this was in reply to ShiftedJewel who I believe stated that M/s did not fit here. My point was that I think it falls under the BDSM umbrella

~Big




ShiftedJewel -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/3/2006 3:42:13 PM)

quote:

No, this was in reply to ShiftedJewel who I believe stated that M/s did not fit here. My point was that I think it falls under the BDSM umbrella

~Big


Apparently I didn't make it very clear... I believe that you can have an M/s relationship without BDSM. The two are not necessarily joined at the hip.
 
Jewel




bignipples2share -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/5/2006 12:00:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

quote:

No, this was in reply to ShiftedJewel who I believe stated that M/s did not fit here. My point was that I think it falls under the BDSM umbrella

~Big


Apparently I didn't make it very clear... I believe that you can have an M/s relationship without BDSM. The two are not necessarily joined at the hip.
 
Jewel

Ahhh okay, I've got your meaning now. I also think that someone who would be looking for this type of relationship would search for it under the BDSM umbrella though.
Your suggestion would be they start their own site for this?

~Big




ShiftedJewel -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/6/2006 3:28:00 AM)

quote:

Ahhh okay, I've got your meaning now. I also think that someone who would be looking for this type of relationship would search for it under the BDSM umbrella though.
Your suggestion would be they start their own site for this?

~Big


Sorry to bring this thread back yet one more time....
 
Where someone looks for a strictly M/s relationship is beyond me and the idea that they would most likely search in a BDSM community is completely possible since that seems to be where a lot of people search for alternative lifestyle partners.. not that it means they will find what they are looking for anymore then anyone else will. I wouldn't "suggest" that anyone start their own site because of their sexual or lifestyle proclivities... the logistics alone would be a nightmare.
 
The point I was attempting to make was that there are so many deviations encompassed in the "alternative" lifestyle realm that, although they are legit alternatives, do NOT fall into the sub-catagory of BDSM. I believe that was the meaning behind the OP as well. To "suggest" that they go start their own site, community or whatever isn't my place, my job or whatever. I am only stating my opionion. As far as I am concerned "wiitwd" is just another synonym for "alternative lifestyle" and everyone fits under that particular umbrella, but as far as a sub-catagory is concerned BDSM is only one of many. So... again, in my opinion, for someone to go to a site that is based basically on the BDSM lifestyle and complain that it doesn't fit them is similar to going to a horse auction and then complaining because they were unable to buy a cow. Apparently they are in the wrong place, huh?
 
Why is it that so many people believe that the place auctioning the horses should be made to sell cows? There are places that sell cows!!! All you have to do is LOOK for them. But then again... conforming has never been my strong suit.
 
Jewel




LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/6/2006 7:32:54 AM)

Dear SwiftedJewel, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I agree with M/s may/can be absent from BDSM elements.  Just as we know M/s and or D/s does not have to have Leather elements.  The M/s and or D/s are more relationship based; thus the reasoning behind the M/s and or D/s Pride flag; as the Gay Leather Pride Flag has carried those who often aren't Leather but, speaks to many as close as possible and what was available at the time.
 
That said, there are more individuals that do have a M/s and or D/s relationship with BDSM elements, as we see them in venues--but, those we don't see at such events still exist.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs




onestandingstill -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/6/2006 9:13:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

I say those that feel no need to protect their subs from things are indeed watering down the BDSM dynamic.

I am moved to ask, from what, specifically? Do you have concrete examples or is this a hypothetical? Epidemic, disease, abuse, getting your toes stepped on, what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
Those self professed Doms who do not have integrity or honor in their possession of subs are indeed polluting the face to face as well as cyber lifestyles.

Again, this sounds like a hypothetical, and in theory, I can agree - there are overtones here of both political adgenda and personal vendetta - so it becomes very difficult to ascertain just who, or what precisley, you are talking about.
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
If more Doms lead appropriately the system would not be as bogged down with the pathetic things that we are commonly seeing these days.

"Things"? What things?
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
I admit many sub/slaves also have poor views of their position. and what their place is and are equally responsible of the bar being set so low.

Perhaps you could expand on what you believe this place to be, and where the bar should be set.
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
To me expecting a Dom to be a man of maturity, integrity, his word & to live his life with honor has nothing to do with a sub topping him. It's the path she wants to follow him on. Many Doms lead these good subs right off cliffs.

A bit more specific, but still to vague to be useful. What cliffs?
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
I think those that expect him to live up to HIS OWN SELF PROFESSED position are indeed not topping him or trying to control him.
It's that if he can't control himself or keep his word he chose to give how can he control or lead others.
That is a huge issue in watering down this life.

suzanne


Are you saying men and women often have different needs and adgendas and one or the other is generally trying to co-opt the other into their various schemes? Do tell.

It's difficult to call it an issue when nobody but you seems to know what it is, exactly. Spit it out, don't be shy.


If you'd like the details and research I have that stand behind my notions please feel free to write my profile.
I'm sorry you have such comprehensions issues and opinions of my statements.
I'm surprised at the lack of these types of behaviors in people in your world and the prevalence of them in mine. It makes me wonder how much community face to face time you've spent talking with lifestyle people if you don't see what I mention happening in the scene?





testlimit -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/6/2006 1:10:28 PM)

I 've thought about this myself...Personaly I mostly identify with the D/s aspect of the lifestyle. I like the idea of bondage, but really haven't had the partners or opportunities to really explore the actual practice. I've done some handcuffing and using belts and things, but nothing really major, stuff it was easy and quick to get out of if i wasn't really watching. As for the SM stuff....some very lite aspects of it I find enjoyable, like face slapping, and humilation games (caging, leash and leads, collars, "talking dirty" for lack of a beter term, stuff like that) but alot of the more hardcore stuff just leaves me rather queasy (branding, needle play [I have a thing about needles, sticking them in someone else just really doesn't do it for me beyond the aspect of that "I can", which really pertains to most of the SM aspects/activities I enjoy] severe beating [spanking and such I'm all for, whipping, a few lashes sure, but not anything that could leave more than a few welts] and such).




onestandingstill -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/6/2006 6:19:08 PM)


Acceptance is voluntary, Tolerance is mandatory

 [image]http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/nt/ic/ut/bsc/srch12_1.gif[/image]
Subject: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - (Permission given to repost.)

Civility and Incivility in the Scene:

By Chris M [Black Rose of Washington DC] and Lady Medora [New Orleans Power Exchange]

One of the most grave and inexplicable problems facing our community
in General is the continued presence of downright rudeness. It takes
many Forms: gossip, arrogance, slander, ingratitude, interpersonal
cruelty, Rumor-mongering, the propensity to snub, shun or belittle, a
refined Sensitivity to slight paired with strident disregard for how
ones actions And words effect others. It is astonishing, and terribly
sad, how poorly we Get along from the viewpoint of interpersonal
relationships. Why a Community like ours, whose members strive for
amature outlook on power, Consent and tolerance should feud with such
violence and monotonous Regularity is a true mystery.

In our community, we see behavior one would never dream grown adults
could Stoop to. We have seen SM groups who ought to get along fine,
bicker Endlessly and mindlessly. We have seen "leaders" whose mission
appears to Be the personal demolition of others whose contributions to
the community Might challenge their own. We know good people who have
left the scene Because of the cattiness, clique-mentality, and
deliberate unconsenting Meanness. This propensity, often called "Tops
disease", is by no means Limited to dominants. It is nationwide in
scope affecting virtually every Group we have visited in our travels.

It isn't hard to imagine a universe where this kind of behavior never
Occurred at all. Aggression, power and consent, to say nothing of
Etiquette, are concepts SM folk deal with all the time. The BDSM
community Has made great strides in developing and documenting a wide
variety of safe SM practices, protocols and standards for negotiation
and play. Yet, Strangely, the bickering, bitchiness and backstabbing
goes on unabated. The Last two Black Rose election cycles, have
produced virtual demolition Derbies of friendships over seemingly
trivial issues. TES went through a Similar bloodbath several years
ago, in the wake of their 25th anniversary Celebration. And many small
groups have closed, not because of legal Persecution, fiscal
mismanagement or lack of membership, but due to Jealously, power
struggles, and malicious gossip. The wounds inflicted by Incivility
exceed any damage perfumed in consensual dungeon play and the
Emotional scarring that uncivil behavior leaves on its victims lasts
longer Than any bruise.

You might guess that the worst of this behavior comes from scene
novices But you would be wrong. Beginners, usually eager to fit in and
make Friends, typically deport themselves well. The worst of this
behavior comes From people who have been in the scene for years.
People with experience, With play partners, with contacts, are often
the most judgmental, least Generous, most easily-offended, readiest to
slander others. It is strange, But over and over we have seen
seemingly friendly newcomers arrive in the Scene, become avid pupils
of our craft, grow into competent players, then Unexpectedly mutate
into arrogance, self-importance and interpersonal Ruthlessness. Many
leave the community in bitterness, anger or disgrace. The civility
question may play a role in the scene's curious lack of people
Of color, who understand discrimination and hostility when they see
it, and Feel unwelcome. It hurts our leather brethren, demolishes
friendships, Breaks the spirit of our volunteers, cripples social
groups, invites Retaliation, and weakens our claim that SM is
practiced by emotionally Healthy, well-adjusted people. Why are we
doing this? What can we do to Stop it?

THE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM: WHAT IS INCIVILITY?

We will go straight to examples. By no means exhaustive, here are
some Categories of incivility we encounter in the scene.

The Empathy Gap: This is subtle, but actually lies behind much
uncivil Behavior. Not so much the presence of hatred or dislike, but
an absence of Empathy and kindness towards other members of our SM
community. In a better World, we would all actively welcome strangers,
extend cordiality, start up Conversations, feel a little compassion
towards others like ourselves. But, More often than not, people feel
nothing in particular towards people they Meet in the scene. This
"inner nothingness" sets the stage for much of the Uncivil behavior we
find in the scene.

Gossip: We all do it, and yes it can be loads of fun catching up on
all the Latest. Plus, gossip serves a valuable purpose when inquiring
about someone You may be interested in playing with. By scene
standards, it is not Uncivil to conduct good faith peer review while
inquiring about someone's Play style, experience, and reputation. But
gossip conducted with the Intent to harm, or passing along dubious or
inflammatory rumors is behavior That hurts the scene. In gossip, as
with other things, there must be some Sense of proportion. Gossip can
also violate the confidentiality of Individuals, possibly subjecting
them to dangerous and unnecessary risk.

Both truth and privacy are cardinal principals in the scene, and
reckless gossip damages both.

Clique Politics: To have a circle of friends is a good thing, but not
when the goal is circling the wagons to shut out people who "don't fit
in" In the same way that benign sharing of information can be
amplified into vicious, destructive gossip, maintaining cliques whose
purpose it is to weaken and ostracize others, hurts the community as
well as the individuals excluded. Ultimately, clique players make so
many enemies that they themselves are resented or unwelcome.

Sweet and Sour: A clique politics tactic: Some people make extravagant
show of how close and loving they are to their circle of friends,
hugs, smiles, introductions glowing compliments, in part too maximize
the sting inflicted against perceived outsiders, who are refused even
the time of day. A stock move among catty sorority girls during rush
week, (the Amish call this shunning) it's embarrassing to see how many
grown men and women use "sweet and sour" to isolate and hurt
individuals whose feelings and esteem they regard as unimportant. This
truly nasty habit creates "us and them" fissures, that fragment the
community, hurt feelings and invite retaliation.

Chicken Hawk Syndrome: With a constant influx of SM beginners, some
attempt to acquire play partners under the guise of "mentoring".
Chicken hawk syndrome includes strong come-ons, boastful presentation
of ones own experience and skill, sometimes in trashing other people,
sometimes attempting to isolate new people from the presence or
influence of others, all in the name of "education", or at least
active attempts to recruit them into their clique of preference. While
there is nothing wrong with expressing interest in someone (new to the
community or not) it is dishonest to couch your interest in terms of
education. For new people we advice you to take your time in choosing
exclusive mentors if you feel the need to do that at all, and ideally
to form relationships with a circle of friends and not to rely on just
one point of view.

SM Psychodrama: High volume yelling matches, absurd conspiracy
mongering, unbridled venom towards community peers...Does any of this
sound familiar? Here's a test: If such behavior would get you fired
from a professional workplace, please leave it at home.

Failure to separate role from reality: We are an imaginative bunch
(witness the number of science fiction fans, and Ren-fair enthusiasts
in our midst) and this is both good and bad. Some take the view that
the scene is a place their fantasy become reality, raising the specter
of unrealistic expectations which can infringe on safety, consent even
sanity. Someone who prides herself on being an unreasonable, demanding
bitch in scene should always watch to draw a line between what is
appropriate in scene and into daily life, even if they consider
themselves "lifestyle".

The Dom=Dickhead syndrome: While some dominants are true artists
cultivating a gourmet's appreciation of pleasure, pain and power,
others are mere peevish control queens, itchy for a chance to
criticize, get belligerent, boss others around. Still others, new to
the community (but not to Gor novels) make the classic error of
equating their sexual dominance with an overbearing, overreaching
manner dominated by virtue of their presence at a SM event. Regardless
of how dominant you are within your consenting relationships (and more
power to ya!), you can no more "assume" consent in your interactions
with others, than you can in an SM scene. Dominants who assume its
okay to boss others around, and demand subservient treatment, demanded
rudely, are making the classic newbie error of assuming its okay to
touch or grab others bodies without out asking.

The Realness Police: In which everyone assumes that your SM should
closely resemble theirs. Scoffing at scenes for being too mild, too
heavy or too.whatever. One particularly odious habit is the loudly
proclaimed belief in those great SM unicorns the "true dom" (" true
doms never bottom...being a true dom means never having to say your
sorry, etc.") or "true submissive" ("If you were a TRUE submissive you
would do X for me, let me do Y to you, take it in stride while I waltz
off and do Z.")

The Imperial-Imperious confusion: Some scenefolk, in an effort to
appear imperial (kingly, of high standard, worthy of respect) conduct
themselves in a manner that is imperious (overbearing, bossy,
judgmental). A surprising number of scene-folk begin this confusion
after a few years in the community, as they assume leadership
positions, or when they decide that it is time they were recognized as
authorities, if not superiors. While many feel that imperious behavior
demonstrates expertise, importance and intelligence, in truth it
almost never fails to alienate potential friends and play partners and
make the offender look bad.

While pecking order tactics like these are fine for beings with the
intelligence and spiritual depth of sparrows and chickens, in humans
they are shallow, unkind and run counter to the spirit of "safe sane
and consensual." Furthermore, people will not continue to support and
tolerate people who treat them badly. Even so, unwise bystanders,
occasionally reward this kind of boorishness with attention and
respect, making our collective problem worse. New people see this
behavior in community leaders and players of high prominence and
emulate it, believing it to be proper, accepted or connoting high status.

Expert-itus: (a variant of the previous point) the state of confusing
ones own expertise with the ability to pick nits, and find faults in
other people's play, demeanor, protocol, motives. While sharing scene
knowledge is generally a good thing, it can be, and often is,
overdone. Go easy on the free advice.

WHY DO WE DO IT?
In fairness, we don't want to suggest that leatherfolk are inherently
rude people. The scene, as wonderful as it can be, contains many
subtle and seldom discussed "stress factors" that contribute to
uncivil behavior. Like water over a stone, these stress factors wear
on the nerves year after year, thus setting the stage for impatience,
irritation, depression and the empathy deficit we have already discussed.

1. The scene is a small world, and quarters are close, closer than we
might like sometimes. Because BDSM is an interest that selects at
random, we often find ourselves spending a lot of time with people we
might not otherwise choose as friends.

2. The scene is an intensely intimate place, we express our inner
fantasies and fears, sometimes share partners, see each other nude,
watch each other cum...Is it any wonder people are sensitive about how
we are treated by others?

3. Because these practices are incredibly diverse, we find themselves
in the occasional presence of activities that make us uncomfortable.
The scene is a strange place and it takes a while to adjust. (And some
things you may never get used to.)

4. The pressures of closeting: The pressure of maintaining a secret
life, of hiding your leather life from friends, colleagues, and family
adds a constant overlay of tension to daily life. Scene folk have to
manage the presence of fetish contraband including toys, clothes,
literature and erotica whose discovery might be catastrophic. The
risk, real or perceived, can encompass loss of employment, of friends,
of family, even custody of ones' kids.

5. Jealousy, loneliness and competition for partners are facts of
life. People without play partners may become unhappy or angry. People
seen as getting more than their share can trigger insecurity and
resentment. Even people with partners may see threats around every corner.

6. The scene, like any fringe group, attracts its share of eccentrics
and outcasts, some fascinating and agreeable, others less so.

7. Newcomer naïveté: New people unacquainted to the scene's protocols
occasionally touch, grab or conduct themselves in an inappropriate
manner. Although individuals typically learn to deport themselves over
time, the constant influx of newcomers means newcomer naivete is a
constant, grating issue.

8. The realities of the party circuit: It is a hard fact of scene
life is that most parties are private and their invite lists finite.
For every guest invited there are twenty left outside. The guest list
is dictated by what the hosts can afford, their circle of friendships,
the size of their home and many other factors. But it still stings to
hear about a party without getting an invite. And it happens all the time.

9. EMAIL (the medium of choice for many SM participants) : Without a
friendly face or modulations of human speech, text encounters can be
easily misstated/misunders tood. Couple that with the sometimes blunt
writing style of emailers everywhere, the added gravity of the written
word and the ease of escalating a private remark into public rebuke
with a misplaced keystroke, and you've got the makings for an online
food fight.

SOME THOUGHTS ON WHAT YOU CAN DO TO FIX IT

One of the more sobering aspects of the list above, is that there
really are no easy solutions to any of these problems. The scene is
small, people are sensitive, invite lists are short, and we really do
have some truly eccentric people who will continue to behave
eccentrically.

But there is room for hope. We do a good job of establishing, and
enforcing, play standards to make SM safe and hot. We are improving
all the time as educators of play practices. But, interpersonal
conduct outside of the SM encounter itself, has not been made a
priority and its probably time it should be. We must recognize
civility (defined in part by the examples in this report) as a threat
to the health of our community, and commit ourselves as individuals,
to improving our own behavior first.

We must extend civility, decency, care and concern beyond our
personal circle to members of the community at large. This doesn't
mean we have to be everyone's bosom bud, but that concern for others
is a priority instead of the non-issue it is for many at present. We
are not talking about sainthood or communism here. The goal is not to
stand around a campfire in a ring, holding hands singing Kumbaya. But
if we all improve our behavior, and extend our compassion by ten
percent, we will be living in a completely transformed universe.

Secondly, through mentoring and our education programs, we must
elevate civility as a requirement for our leaders and citizens. While
scene etiquette (a subset of civility), is an SM staple, it deals
mainly with deportment, protocols and standards of interaction, and
doesn't address the deeper issues of cultivating compassion, tolerance
and awareness, towards our SM brethren. These are tougher
ethics-driven issues often without simple answers.

And, though vocal, it is a minority of scene-folk who do the worst of
this callous behavior. Most want a scene that is friendly and
supportive. Many are willing to work to make it so (hopefully you too
if you've read this far). And though the gossips, scolds and assholes
among us often succeed in hurting their intended targets (and
incidentally, our community), their greatest causalities are
ultimately their own reputations.

Remember that we are all brothers and sisters in a community no
matter how diverse. If we behave like we care about and support one
other, we will all find ourselves, by definition, in an environment
that is more caring and supportive.

Improved civility should presented as causal to the following
desirable conditions: stability of friendships; respect of peers;
trust of potential play partners (civility means stability);
strengthens ones personal network of contacts; supports the position
that SM is practiced by sane, well adjusted people; elevates fairness
and justice (which are eternal) as the coin of the realm as opposed to
popularity and bureaucratic clout (which are fleeting and can vanish
at any moment); strengthens the community and makes it healthier;
raises the comfort quotient for newcomers.

A PROPOSED APPROACH: EXTEND SSC INTO INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS

Strive as individuals and organizations to extend "safe, sane, and
consensual" into the arena of interpersonal conduct. So lets turn the
laser beam of SSC onto our civility concerns and see what it tells us:

Uncivil behavior is nonconsensual: Unless assured, otherwise good
manners and general kindness should be the coin of the realm. To do
less is to engage someone without their consent. Doms should restrict
their dominance to those who have consented to it. Submissives who
pester others with unsolicited subservience are likewise in violation.
And nonconsensual dominance in the name of "mentoring" doesn't wash
either. Gossips and scolds should likewise consider their behavior in
terms of consent. Subjecting someone to a tongue lashing or a gossip
campaign is really no better than drawing out a flogger and hammering
away at them without
warning.

Uncivil behavior is not safe: Cruel, thoughtless behavior can damage
hurt people, deeply, for as long time, and that cannot be called safe.
In the same way that humiliation can be more damaging than physical
pain, the emotional harm inflicted from incivility may far exceed what
you intend. Unsolicited advice can come across as cutting, and
judgmental. Incivility also sets a diminished community standard for
others to follow, making incivility more acceptable and social
environment suffers often scaring mature decent people away, and can
in time bring a group to its knees. Small acts of rudeness, or
disregard, even if only perceived as such can balloon up into clique wars.

And if the well being of your intended victim means nothing to you,
consider this: If you make trouble for people, chances are it will
come back to haunt you later on. People have a way of reciprocating
behavior. Be nice and people will be nice back. Be a jackass and
that's how others will see AND speak of you. This is a small world and
if you screw someone, you are handing them a motive to get you back
later. Even if you are queen of the in-clique at present, no one
controls the future and, over time, the leather gods have a way of
evening things out. The community is close, memory is long, and
paybacks are a bitch. For this reason alone, uncivil behavior is
unsafe to you.

Uncivil behavior is not even all that sane: For years many of us felt
we were solitary freaks before finding this community. To reinforce
feelings of rejection in our brothers and sisters by deliberately
withholding human decency, or subjecting them to deliberate hardship,
is just not defensible.

People who find themselves helpless to resist clashing with or
inflicting imperious behavior on their scene fellows, would do well to
begin some serious soul searching and perhaps seeking out the help
they need.

A lot of uncivil behavior is retaliatory. Someone does something that
hurts or offends you prompting an aggressive response. Unfortunately
this may be exactly how it looks to the person you just dissed. If you
find that your actions and behavior are building up to a feud, it is a
great idea to apologize for your part in the situation and disengage
from the conflict. Furthermore, the long term gains from uncivil
behavior are so meager, and the costs so high that it really does not
pay for people who hope to stay in the community for some time. (Even
if they win a short term victory.)

APHORISMS

Taking care of your community. Take care of its members. Agree to
disagree. You don't have to dis just because you dislike. Civility
demonstrates stability. Piss off a bigot; be nice to a leather person.
Imperious does not mean imperial. SSC is always in effect, whether or
not a scene is in progress. Resist the urge to reward slanderous
gossip with your attention and involvement - it's not consensual, and
not safe, even it's sanity is questionable. Tithe: give ten percent
more in kindness appreciation gratitude, forgiveness. Never assume
Safety. Never assume Consent. SM does not stand for Super Man - obody
is perfect and everyone makes Mistakes. Be willing to concede the
point if you have been uncivil. Being willing to fess up, and
apologize, makes you stronger, not weaker.

Always try to be the voice of sanity and reason. Incivility is
uncivil, whatever the excuse. Try to maintain perspective. Maintain a
healthy sense of humor. True wealth is the ability to give kindness.
Never forget your pleasure.
Acceptance is voluntary, tolerance is mandatory




LordODiscipline -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/6/2006 7:25:07 PM)

Tolerance of poor behavior is never mandatory in any setting.
 
When do we (as individuals and groups) say "enough is enough"?
 
When we have people considered leaders in the leather community lying about their bone fides in an egregious fashion...
 
When people declare that "their way" is the only way and then hypocritically decry other people when they state their beliefs...
 
Civility is a two way street... it needs to be offered before it is returned and to expect that a "slap"  would be met with a kindness is unrealistic and rather blind.
 
quote:

Beginners, usually eager to fit in and make Friends, typically deport themselves well.


I find this a rather narrow and subjective view as this very thread has amply demonstrated....
 
And, I know this is true (at least about myself and my stream of consciousness writing style:
quote:

9. EMAIL (the medium of choice for many SM participants) : Without a friendly face or modulations of human speech, text encounters can be easily misstated/misunderstood. Couple that with the sometimes blunt writing style of emailers everywhere, the added gravity of the written word and the ease of escalating a private remark into public rebuke with a misplaced keystroke, and you've got the makings for an online food fight.

 
And - as far as anything being "mandatory - recall Twain: "The only thing mandatory in life are taxes and death"
 
"Tolerance" in reference to leather only speaks of one another's sexuality, kinks and choices - it is not about tolerating poor behavior, sniping and general bitchyness when and where it is displayed.
 
Check on that... it is a fact.
 
~J
PS: tell the authors that it should be "affect" and not "effect" in the first paragraph - a common mistake.
PSS: This is still sniping dear - and, not exceptionally pretty in this guise either. It is another form of 'incivility'... and, (as I mentioned - I have a low tolerance for hypocracy)




LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/6/2006 10:58:22 PM)

Dear testlimits, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In my mind's eye, I feel that those who join into any group or discover BDSM, M/s, D/s and or S&M; feel that they have to 'do it all.'
 
What I mean from 'do it all' is; all the bondage known in the scene, all the whipping skills known in the scene and or what you call 'hard core' things like needle play and or branding.
 
Whipping and caning doesn't have to hurt.  It doesn't have to be about pain.  It doesn't have to be humiliating.  Anybody can beat someone to welts and such.  It is 'art' or 'mastering' to use the whip, cane, single tails, paddles and such with control as to be a sensual caress to a hard hitting Sadist. 
 
The most intense and hardest bondage to maintain, is invisible.  Holding a position without support, furniture and or physical bondage, such as cuffs, rope, chains and such; aids in staying put.  But to struggle to stay put without it takes focus,strength of the mind.
 
There should be no guilt feelings or feeling less than, if you don't do needles.  Main thing, is to be of quality skills rather quantity of poor skills.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs




LadyHugs -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/6/2006 11:26:35 PM)

Dear LordODiscipline, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I do agree, that some 'leaders of the community' at large, do fail to hit the mark in being good examples of leadership.
 
I know of one well known leader/presenter, who lied about their roots and did so in front of several witnesses.  They later dropped the false creditials but, nobody really seem to care and continue to tolerate the individual.  In my mind's eye; so many years ago--when they stacked the bull pies in the company of a few of us; the credibility was lost.  Yet, there is in some cases where those who can validate creditials who have passed away now for some, as all of us age in the scene, so have our elders who helped shaped their students and or admirers, in M/s, D/s, S&M and or BDSM.  That is the area where credibility can no longer be established but, was at one point able to be fully confirmed and validated.  What is important though, is that we (in general terms) create our own reputation as we make a journey through the lifestyle and life itself.  Not everybody will be title holders.  And, not all title contests have more than one couple and or one person, so they win by default.
 
I do agree with you, that civility must be offered as well as returned.
However, when someone offers civility, it would be helpful to have a gracious acceptance.  Those who 'bitch' about civility, in the areas I've visited, are the ones who have been the most unkind.  So, this does pose a never ending situation. 
 
Another well known presenter and writer/author; visited my friend's home.  My friend was disgusted and disappointed by the individual's rudeness and less than a proper guest.  What the sadness was, this individual wrote tons on how guests should behave and such; yet when in such a situation, as a guest in my friend's home--this 'leader' couldn't/wouldn't practice what they preached.  People have no idea that this happened but, I can tell you their books and writings have been put into the rubbish can.  This individual carried themselves just as rude and pompus at a conference gathering and, many were insulted by the comments used.  They also have the resolve to trash the books and such.  They have found this individual writes and inspires but, cannot practice what they wrote.  But, for those who never met the person--they think this individual is the best thing since sliced bread.
 
In summary, it falls on individuals to set their own standards of behavior, as to inspire as well as set the example.  It is hard to ask anybody to be responsible for the change in civility, especially if they lack it.  In my mind's eye; the lack of civility is due to the lack of consistancy.  Consistancy must be in house as well as out of the house.
It is work but, it is making a choice on one's behavior as to create behavior modification, just as much as attitude adjustment.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 




Sinergy -> RE: Watered down BDSM (10/7/2006 12:32:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Civility is a two way street... it needs to be offered before it is returned and to expect that a "slap"  would be met with a kindness is unrealistic and rather blind.
 


Hello A/all,

While I agree with the comment about Civility being a two way street, I disagree with the second statement about it needs to be offered before it is returned.

I am generally civil and polite to people from the outset, without ever expecting that civility to be returned.  Most of the time it is, and when it is not, I dont spend much time mulling over it.

From my perspective, the statement that civility needs to be offered before it is returned by me puts me in the submissive role in the relationship.  I offer up civility because that is the person I want to be, whether or not it is returned does not alter my behavior.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy




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