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Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 4:21:45 AM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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Understanding that a large majority here on the message board are not in the UK... Just wondering how many people have seen the articles on Prince Harry and His costume gaff in the UK (see article)

My question isnt a royalist one... but a Lifestyle one.

Personal opinions on whether it would be wrong to wear such outfits... be they Nazi... Viking... Nun... etc to functions(or in private) or do they risk a person being 'branded' with being a sympathiser? Does a Dominant who enjoys seeing their sub/slave in a school uniform make them an abuser of children?.... Does a specific uniform make a person a Nazi... or a Canadian Mountie?

Do we risk being catergorised for a fetish?

peace & love

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 5:02:19 AM   
nella


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From: Norway
Status: offline 		For you and me, no. If somone wanted to play nazi torturer and captured jew, by all means do so. But for a celebrity like the English Prince, being seen and photographed in such an outfit give of a paticular message. It do not matter if it was a harmless prank or a kink. If i an my Dom play nazi in our own home, it ofend none, if somone play it where other pepole can see (that are not part of the game i mean.), and paticular celberites it might hurt those that have experieced for example the nazi or that has strong opinions aboute it.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 5:49:19 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Lots of people have uniform fetishes. I know people who are not Nazi's who like to collect nazi memorabilia. I can understand how it can be tough on buttons and triggers for some people but I think those triggers are their issues and should not be placed on everyone else.

Being fond of memorabelia and different kinds of uniforms doesn't make someone a Nazi. People with issues should find other outlets for their issues rather than trying to get the rest of the world to change for them.

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 1/13/2005 5:50:04 AM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 6:31:42 AM   
LadyShoshin


Posts: 492
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Understanding that a large majority here on the message board are not in the UK... Just wondering how many people have seen the articles on Prince Harry and His costume gaff in the UK (see article)

My question isnt a royalist one... but a Lifestyle one.

Personal opinions on whether it would be wrong to wear such outfits... be they Nazi... Viking... Nun... etc to functions(or in private) or do they risk a person being 'branded' with being a sympathiser? Does a Dominant who enjoys seeing their sub/slave in a school uniform make them an abuser of children?.... Does a specific uniform make a person a Nazi... or a Canadian Mountie?

Do we risk being catergorised for a fetish?

peace & love


I, personally would avoid wearing a Nazi uniform in public, I would also avoid an idetifiable Taliban outfit. What they did to so many people is still within living memory and is a worldwide memory. The Nazi party still exists in small pockets worldwide and continues to spew their particular brand of hatred for anyone who is not Caucasian & Christian.

There is a plethora of uniform styles to choose from to wear in public.

Memoriabilia collecting is different, just because my sister collects dolls doesn't make her Santa.


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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 6:43:11 AM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		Poor Harry first the death of his mom, then the questions about if Charles really is his dad. Is it any wonder he's screwed up? Still it was a big time screw up and yes i think he should go and see what evil things they did

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 6:59:45 AM   
cynnacent1


Posts: 340
Joined: 6/25/2004
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		The idea that the Holocaust represents 11 million lives that abruptly ended is a difficult concept, but this is an important point. The Holocaust was the extermination of people not for who they were but for what they were. Groups such as handicaps, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Poles, Soviet prisoners of war, political dissidents and others were persecuted by the Nazis because of their religious/political beliefs, physical defects, or failure to fall into the "Aryan" ideal.

The unfortunate truth is that the Holocaust is a subject whose gravity is obvious, but it is easy to become almost numb to it. As Elie Wiesel, Nobel Laureate and famous Holocaust survivor has said, "the essense of this tragedy is that it can never be fully conveyed." ................ Remember that the Holocaust is something that we should all learn about so that we never let such a terrible crime against mankind happen again. One of the reasons you can listen to survivors is that it helps to show that every one of those 11 million has a story, but they aren't alive to tell it. ( http://library.thinkquest.org/12663/summary/whatframe.html ).

In my mind, dressing in the uniform of a Nun, Priest, or KKK member does not carry nearly close to the same impact as dressing as a Nazi. I don't know of any Nuns or Priests or even KKK members who performed such mass devastation, murders, and horrible crime upon an entire people of even a nearly comparable magnitude. The swastika symbol is highly offensive to many, and not all who are offended by it are Jewish.

While my opinions certainly stand as being in agreement with the 'my kink is mine & your's is your's .. live and let live in acceptance of other's different beliefs' theory, Prince Harry's costume gaff in my opinion demonstrates an act of poor taste, lack of common sense and poor judgement, and a show of absense of any level of true compassion for the many various victims of unforgiveable crimes for which Nazis were held responsible. i would feel the same even if he were a total 'unknown' rather than a public figure such as a well known prince.

...persecuted by the Nazis because of their religious/political beliefs, physical defects, or failure to fall into the "Aryan" ideal. [/i]
If viewing this as a 'lifestyle' question, in that i believe people involved with BDSM should not judge other's based on their personal kinks, and the Nazis having actually taken over 11 million lives DUE to others being different, or holding different beliefs was of course unacceptable to put it lightly. In my opinion, it's wrong to wear a Nazi uniform in that it may indicate to others that the one wearing the uniform as a costume is in tolerance, acceptance & support of the crimes which Nazis committed.

¸,ø¤º°cynnacent°º¤ø,¸ (proudly owned by, and devoted to INSIDEYOURMIND)



< Message edited by cynnacent1 -- 1/13/2005 7:07:53 AM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 7:34:59 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		We live in a society that for the most part we are free to express our individuality how we see fit. We need to bear in mind though that should we choose to adorn ourselves in a way that does not conform with what society deems to be "normal" or "acceptable", carries with it the reality that we have just chosen a bit of a tougher road to hoe. The weight of any resulting consequences are ours to bear. If you choose to dress in biker attire for instance, you know that there is a segment of the population that will treat you differently for the way you appear. Just as we would wish that others are tolerant of our personal kinks or expressions of individuality, we also need to remain cognizant to the thoughts and feelings of those we expose them to. One would hopefully not attend Sunday morning Mass wearing their fetish gear from the night before.
The situation with Harry though I believe is a bit different. He is in a position where the public looks to him to be a role model of sorts. The Holocaust was a horrendous tragedy that affected the world and everyone in it. Although it was a bit before his time, I believe that young Harry's choice of attire was in extremely poor taste and that in light of the public nature of his persona an apology is in order.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 7:44:26 AM   
INSIDEYOURMIND


Posts: 483
Status: offline 		Being of Jewish descent, this topic carries more meaning than to others.

Because of this Holocaust, I never had the chance to meet any of my Grandparents, as well as an Aunt, and an Uncle.

My one surviving Aunt still wears the numbers tattooed on her arm.

I accept the "My kink is your kink" thought, but to knowingly put on a uniform of a group that was responsible for the death of millions of people, is almost like validating what they did.

What people do in the privacy of their own home is certinly their business, but once they step out of their home, they are subjecting themselves to the opinion of others.

Anti-semitism is still very strong in the world, I have a hat that my 19 year old daughter gave me, it is one of my favorite hats, and I wear it often, but I am careful not to wear it where it may be an issue.

I have attached a photo of the hat, when looking at it, it would seem innocent enough, but I have gotten dirty looks, and comments whispered.

I am proud to be a Jew, and proud to be part of a people that no matter what was thrown at them, they survived.

Consider a history of American movies without Samuel Goldwyn. American music without George and Ira Gershwin, Benny Goodman, and Leonard Bernstein. American song without Irving Berlin, Al Jolson and Oscar Hammerstein II. American opera without Robert Merrill, Roberta Peters, Richard Tucker or Beverly Sills. American magic without Harry Houdini. American jurisprudence without Louis Brandies. American theater without Arthur Miller or Lillian Hellman. American baseball without Hank Greenberg or Sandy Koufax. American fashion without Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein. Comedy without Adam Sandler, and Robert Klein.

Imagine also the course of American physics without Albert Einstein, Robert Oppenheimer or Leo Szilard. Imagine American medicine without Jonas Salk and Albert Sabin. Imagine the world of American finance without Henry Morgenthau or Bernard Baruch. American business without Levi Strauss or Helena Rubenstein.

In every case, Jewish Americans have altered the course of their respective disciplines. Clearly, the families and descendents of Jewish immigrants to our shores have contributed mightily to virtually every aspect of the American landscape.





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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 8:14:29 AM   
GoddessJules


Posts: 549
Status: offline 		I sympathize with the pain of your heritage, but I must say that I know for a fact that not *all* people who may have nazi gear are nazis nor do they subscribe to nazi ideologies. I'm black and Japanese. . .and I own a latex SS uniform. Why? 1) I love latex 2) I like the way the uniform looks 3) I like things that are taboo.
Do I get sensitive about people "living out" things that take the pains of my past lightly? Not really. If someone wants to wear a mushroom costume and call it Nagasaki. . .so be it. I'm sure all of the self identifying "slaves" (even the ones that post on the boards) live nothing like the lives of *my* ancestors and they definitely won't *die* or be subjected to the treatment *my* ancestors did. Do I take offense? No.

Your words: <<I accept the "My kink is your kink" thought, but to knowingly put on a uniform of a group that was responsible for the death of millions of people, is almost like validating what they did. >>

So are we not going to suggest that present day slave owners are validating the slave owners of the past???



J

< Message edited by GoddessJules -- 1/13/2005 8:18:49 AM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 8:23:03 AM   
darkinshadows


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Thanks to all who have replied so far... from a personal point of view I think that He made a huge gaff, but I dont think that it automatically makes him a nazi... bad judgement on his part...

But adding to the point... lots of people seem to be very anti-nazi (uniform)... and taliban was even mentioned...(my thanks and regards to LadyShoshin) but my question is... why are togas not seen as the same?... The Romans did terrible things .... what about Vikings?... I heard it suggested that Prince Harry should have chosen something more 'appropriate'... like One of His own family... why would it have been acceptable for Him to be, say... Richard the Lionheart... who in History was a terrible, cruel man whose crusades were nothing but an excuse to kill the moors or Henry who was a women beater, killer and a persecutor of catholics?

Just because a Persecussion was hundreds of years ago, instead of a few decades... does that make it easier to forget?

*Just a devils advocate for a good discussion*


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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 8:34:16 AM   
GoddessJules


Posts: 549
Status: offline
quote:

But adding to the point... lots of people seem to be very anti-nazi (uniform)... and taliban was even mentioned...(my thanks and regards to LadyShoshin) but my question is... why are togas not seen as the same?... The Romans did terrible things .... what about Vikings?..


That is because we would have to look at out lifestyle as a whole and see that a lot of what we do was used to oppress *some* group or another. When people were publicly flogged. . .do you think it was an enjoyable pleasant thing? Do you think they were fairly administered? How about people that were put into stockades for being "mentally feeble?" Some of the techinques we use for "play" were used as instruments of torture. Are people willing to say that since prisoners (rightly or not) were tortured by electical devices. . .we as a community won't use them in play because enough people have suffered because of these devices? I think not.

J

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 9:13:19 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Again my first coment, if you have a nazi uniform fenish, do it in your own home where do not offend anyone.

One things that do bug me is that the Sun Kross is now so deeply asisiated whit nazisem that in many places in the world it is forbidden to wear. When it is in truth a symbol of the sun. And many occultist that are not nazi, like myself would like to use it.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 9:36:13 AM   
INSIDEYOURMIND


Posts: 483
Status: offline
quote:

we as a community won't use them in play because enough people have suffered because of these devices? I think not.


I think the key word here is consentual, the people who were shocked, flogged, hobbled, electrocuted, gassed, or tortued in another fashion, were done so as to cause physical harm.

What we do in this lifestyle is done with complete consent from both parties.


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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 10:31:36 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

lots of people seem to be very anti-nazi (uniform)... and taliban was even mentioned...(my thanks and regards to LadyShoshin) but my question is... why are togas not seen as the same?... The Romans did terrible things .... what about Vikings?...


~Angel~
Marvelous point!

The variable here is time. It took a couple thousand years for the Roman's to inspire a "Toga Party". By the same token, Sun Tzu's the "Art of War" is now a Business Textbook. Because of current technology time is getting compressed. So much data and access is being created that historical references are being lost.

I tried to find the direct reference to this, but trust me I'm NOT making up this statistic. 50% of British students surveyed (before this incident) did not know what the Holocaust was. I'm sure that number would be even higher in the US. I would think the prince knows, but at his age, 20, does he really appreciate it's place in world history? In his position he should but maybe not. And some may reference the Windsors' historical links with Germany. Just a quick backround for others interested on historical perspective. This is from a London newpaper source, link included.
quote:

"The modern royal family was founded in 1840 when Queen Victoria married Albert of Saxe-Coburg, a Germany duchy, creating The House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Such was the ill-feeling towards all things German during the First World War that in 1917 Victoria's grandson King George V - an honorary Field Marshal in the German army - thought it prudent to renounce the German name and titles and adopt that of Windsor.
Throughout the Twenties and Thirties, the royals were steadfastly opposed to conflict with their ancestral fatherland. Indeed George V's wife Queen Mary always maintained that Britain had "backed the wrong horse" in 1914.

His son's meeting with Hitler threatened irrevocably to undermine the royal family's support among their subjects.
http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/15924727?source=Evening%20Standard



It's sad to think about but it will get more forgotten as time passes. In another 25-30 years there won't be any Holocaust survivors, in 100 years there won't even be any children of Holocaust survivors. Is it impossible to believe that some movie made 100 years from now will have a Nazi version of the Toga Party scene from the Animal House Movie?

Good can come from this. The prince's faux pas, will generate dialog - like this one. But it's sand against the tide of time.

BTW...My addiction to this site is because of the inordinate amount of intelligent people who regularly post. I'd love to all sit around in person one day. With or without play - it would be a great time. To facilitate that, you'll ALL invited to our place in Redondo for the Super-Bowl party we're planning. If you want an invite and directions send us a direct message.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/13/2005 11:02:00 AM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 1:23:27 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		My opinion: It's absolutely okay to wear whatever outfit you want to wear in private, no matter how horrific the history behind it, because it's your house/hotel/whatever, and you should be free to play in whatever way you get off with other consenting adults; However, what he did was in Horrible taste, and it was very wrong, unless his fetish is to get people angry enough to beat him, he shouldn't wear it in public. M

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 1:28:48 PM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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M'lady Jules...

I just have to stand in awe of what You have written.
Very thought provoking....

Thank You
Peace & Love

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 2:53:00 PM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		I'm a 1/4 jewish, my great grandmother was killed in the concentration camps yet I have worn and have scened with people in SS uniforms. I even wear jack boots on a regular basis and speak pretty close to fluent german... and hebrew mind you. So am I somehow being racist towards myself?

Things have the power that you give them, that is all. When you see that person on the psuedo-cross being whipped by a "priest" are you thinking about the spanish inquisition? Are you offended by relating it to the deaths of so many? Why is the hatred of one man, and the monstrosities he bred more powerful to you than the many others that have been so commonly thrown away without much consideration. Like mentioned before, Togas are used without a second thought and the Romans killed more than the Nazi even came close to.

Was it a horrible, earth shattering event? Absolutely. Should people be so in shock and awe. Well guess that depends on how thick your skin is. I understand that some people hold religion and other such things to a very high degree and in such certain things would hold very near and dear to them... Also in such, different people from different eras and mindsets have different understandings and attatchments to events.But things do change. It is a numbness perhaps, even perchance an ignorance. But such is the nature of life. I could go off on a long tangent on this, but it just doesn't make sense to go into it.

Also, another thing people often don't get, is that Brits still hold a strong resentment or harbored agressions against the nazis so in such it is far more taboo for other reasons than the indescretions of historical destructions.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 3:40:24 PM   
Bigbossman4u


Posts: 116
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Just because a Persecussion was hundreds of years ago, instead of a few decades... does that make it easier to forget?


Without a doubt - yes. Much easier to forget.

The sad reality is, most people have no clue of history - beyond a few snippets they may recall from high school or college, nor do they have a clue what's going on currently outside of their own microcosm of existence. The fact that there are so many survivors and direct descendents of the "Final Solution to the Jewish Problem" Shoah living and breathing means it is a far more sensitive subject than the devastation wrought by the Romans, Vikings, Crusaders (who arguably killed a large percentage of teh jewish population at the time than Hitler did), American colonists of years past - and sadly perhaps too, more sensitive than the more current genocidal attempts we've all witnessed in the last 20 years (if our eyes have been open to see em).

Another aspect which, in my minds eye at least, separates the Shoah/Holocaust from so many other examples of man's inhumanity is that many of the other perpetrators were responsible for some wondrous advancements of civilization as well... the legacy of Roman brutality is (rightly or wrongly) overshadowed by their positive contributions. The elimination of the vast majority of aboriginal Americans is but a side bar in the great story of Progress.

I am a Jew, by race - though more an ultra-reformed neo-pagan spiritually, and I despise when people compare other atrocities to the Holocasut for one simple reason. Not becasue I am biased because it was "my people" (though that may be true) but becasue never before nor since, has the elimination of a race ( combined with other un-wanted citizens - ie: gypsies, Comunists, Homosexuals, Freemasons, ad infinitum) been undertaken with such organizated zeal and preparation. There have been countless attempts at genocide thoroughout history - many in our lifetimes - but most are spontaneous outbursts of generations of hatred brought to life in a chaotic and emotionally charged spark. The Nazi killing machine was well thought out and planned, and had been for years- making it far more sinister that your run of the mill genocidal onslaught. This is not to belittle the recent genocidal rampages in the Balkans, Central Africa, East Timor, Palestine, Sudan, ad infinitum. For those who experienced it, or who survived it, or who were close to it.. these inhumanities are every bit as powerful a legacy as the Holocaust. But not even the Jewish pogroms in Russia (both under the Tsars and Stalin) came close to the engineered madness of the Shoah - though arguably more Jews perished on Russian real estate than on the Third Reich's occupied territories. It's not a number's game either, merely the fact that it was so well engineered and professionally designed & administered to ensure total success...so muhc so that even as the Allies were closing in, the furnaces were working at full capacity. That reality combined with the fact that one of the few positive remnants the nazi regime left us with is the Volkswagon (a mixed blessing in itself, depending on perspective) - leaves the Holocaust in a class by itself - certainly in modern history.

As far as the swastika itself. The truly sad part is that Hitler, true to his pseudo-occultist manner, stole the ancient symbol from the indo-aryan civilizations and has bastardized it for many years to come (at least in the West). As a religious and cultural symbol, it's use predates teh Ankh of Egypt. It represents life, the sun and good fortune.... but to most it now only means hate and sinister evil.

I have a tattoo of Ganesha (the elephant Hindu god of removing obstacles, luck and fortune)... and am considering wether I should put the original swastika on his hand or not. I do not want to offend my family members - many of whom do not understand what the swastika truly means before it became the symbol of the Third Reich. it's a tough decision for me.

As for those into Nazi fetishgear.. hey whatever floats your boat... just be a bit sensitive to those who may view it (if you're an exhibitionist) Which brings me to Prince Harry. I think Prince Harry needs a good spanking (sure plenty here woudl volunteer) for being unbelievably insensitive - especially knowing as well as he does, how much the press keeps their lenses pointed at him. It's like going to a native American Sweatlodge dressed as General Custer.. just a dumb idea.

Sorry for my rambling... lack of sleep and work interruptions :)

Best
Joshua





< Message edited by Bigbossman4u -- 1/13/2005 3:42:47 PM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 3:56:11 PM   
Pavel


Posts: 308
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: Washington
Status: offline 		History is a very messy, bloody series of events. The icons of what has come before are sort of in a curious postion. The Nazi party as it was when it ruled Germany is functionally dead, the Nazi types we're dealing with now are more just the acolytes of a dead god, or the classic lost youth types (at least from my experinces).
Anyways onto the actual point of the post. I don't think I'll be wearing a nazi uniform anytime soon, and what ya'll do in private isn't my business (duh). What's more upsetting to me is just how blatently people disregard the history and background of such symbols. I guess I don't have a problem if you understand and respect what you choose to wear or display. Of course, this is why I hate Che shirts too, but anyways.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 10:05:07 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I've worn a wide variety of costumes in my life. I'm sure some offended some people while other's did not. When I wore them I meant to offend nobody. I worn them in fun.

So, I believe Prince Harry should be allowed the same freedoms as anyone else. He should be allowed to wear anything he see's fit. However, he is also in the public eye. He knows more than any of us what that entails. He should have known there would be issues brought up about his attire. Perhaps he did yet he didn't care or wanted to make some sort of statement.

Regardless no matter what we do we will always offend someone. If I wear a nun's habit. I am offending the devout catholics. If I wear an Iraqi military uniform I am offending the masses. If I wear a police uniform I am offending the mother who lost her son to a police officer.
I'm sure in a way they are branded. Should they be? I don't believe so but then I don't control society at large either.
We all make bad judgement calls in our lives. They key is to make it through as best as we can.

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