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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/15/2005 10:22:29 PM   
chuangtzu1952


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		i think the ppl who were offended were mostly those who experienced nonconsensual torture, had their loved one gassed and their skin used to make lamp shades, or who have parents or grandparents who were exterminated by Hitler. These, contrary to what many think, included gypsies, homosexuals, lesbians... ( i assume bdsm'ers would have been scared shitless as well)

Also, if the average person dresses up in a Nazi uniform it most likely would be considered innocuous. However, this Harry is "Royal"... 3rd in line to be king... does not need to work or wipe his own butt.... all he has to do is travel, play and "act" Royal" whatever that is. He is a symbol to Brits...Many Brits seem to have been a little pissed and embarrassed to have the world see the picture.

i dont think this can, in any way, be compared to fetissh, consensual, bdsm uniforms. In the context of a BDSM activities consisting of ssc play and fetish dress a the same uniform would not even be noticed...context is all important.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/15/2005 11:42:04 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuangtzu1952
i think the ppl who were offended were mostly those who experienced nonconsensual torture, had their loved one gassed and their skin used to make lamp shades, or who have parents or grandparents who were exterminated by Hitler. ( i assume bdsm'ers would have been scared shitless as well)

Also, this Harry is "Royal"... 3rd in line to be king... does not need to work or wipe his own butt.... all he has to do is travel, play and "act" Royal" whatever that is. He is a symbol to Brits...
i dont think this can, in any way, be compared to fetissh, consensual, bdsm uniforms.

Very Eloquently said Chuangtzu, and I Agree completely. M

(in reply to chuangtzu1952)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 5:06:10 AM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		~giggles at the thought of a royal butt wiper~
i'm sorry, i'm sorry i did get much more than that out of your post and i agree. Perhaps because i'm tired this just gave me and image that brought forth the giggles.

Q what do you do for a living?

A: well I'm in charge of making sure Prince Harry's arse is nice and clean

~giggles~ ok ok i'm off to bed now

(in reply to chuangtzu1952)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 5:59:14 AM   
sammie


Posts: 5
Joined: 1/8/2005
Status: offline 		Sadly, Prince Harry was poorly advised by those surrounding him. He is a young man who acted very foolishly, but those among the staff who know what he was wearing acted in error to encourage him to tone it down. Instead, he should have discouraged from using the outfit.

This is the same as any public figure wearing an outfit which 'insults' large numbers of the public whether it is the Prime Minister, President, Congressman, ... or mayor. The same would be true of an individual wearing a KKK sheet in the same way.

On the other hand, the mass condemnation by nations, organizations and individuals has some advantage to society in rememberance and understanding, but the demands for continued apologies, ... is as foolish as the orginal action. LDC told of how we would read this in his obituary for it would follow his whole life; sadly, we are seeing a great lack of perspective.

I am personally disgusted by the actions of all of the facist goverments whether Germany, Spain, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, ..., but I used to wear a Guardia Civil hat as a child and young teenager. I did not understand what Franco's organization had done until my middle teenage years. It was a mistake, but I was a child. Like Prince Harry's staff, my parents should have discouraged it.

My work has caused me to spend a great deal of time in and studying the Soviet Union and the WARSAW Pact. Even today, I work in the region a great deal. I have a small painting on the wall of my flat with Georgi Dimitrov which reminds me of how many were involved in the murder of Europe's Communists in the thirties. I know the system set-up by Lenin and carried on by Stalin ..., but I am not offended by a Red Army hat. Instead when I see one, I am reminded of the days in Leningrad, Kiev, Moscow, Volgagrad, and eventually the first capture of a German army in the pocket. These brave, determined soldiers fought for every inch of ground on the way to Berlin. The result was that fewer members of the British, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, ... armies died defeating the NAZI's.

Should I not be as disgusted when I see a Red Army hat knowing the millions who died under the system that it protected. Maybe, it is the NKDV uniforms or the Schutzstaffel Totenkopfverbande uniform that I should detest as the regular Red Army or Warmacht were not as involved.

Each thought regarding this becomes more difficult as we have the tortures at Abu Gharib wearing American uniforms or what about the uniforms of Serbians fighting against Croatia where many crimes against humanity occurred.

Yes, it was very foolish for Prince Harry to wear a NAZI uniform, but where does one go with it?

(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 8:05:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

And if a few nuts nowadays commit crimes in the name of religion, does that condemn entire religions with millions of adherents?


Yes. Referring to Muslim, it's the most honest religion there is. Jihad is required, everyone not Muslim is an infidel and should be killed. My source is the Koran. There are 123 verses in the Koran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah. It's not a "few nuts". It the foundation of the Muslim religion. I've sited these before. Here are but a few passages and quotes:
quote:



Islam's earnest goal, set forth in the Koran, references given herein are from three versions, (Islamic written tradition), remains the same: to bring all mankind into submission (that's what "Islam" means) and to kill or enslave all "infidels"(i.e., unbelievers in Allah and Muhammad his prophet--Surah 2:190-92;4:76;5:33;9:5,29,41;47:4, etc.). Islam (in obedience to the Koran and Muhammad's example) is the driving force behind most terrorism today. Muhammad declared, "The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them."

Allah tells Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians for friends...slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who...believe not in Allah nor the Last Day" (5:51;9:5,29,41).

- God loves not the false, the Infidel. 22:39

- Give not way therefore to the Infidels, but by means of this Koran strive against them with a mighty strife. 25:54

-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).

- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)

- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)


Since the end of the Inquisition, there is no violent Christian army sworn to eliminate all who are not Christian. The Muslims can not make that statement.

Doubt that the Catholic Church had anything to do with the Spanish Conquistadors?

1493 - Pope Alexander VI gave the Americas to Spain, on condition it converted the natives to Christianity. "Convert of Kill".
1519 - Spanish explorer Hernán Cortés and his fellow villagers waged a scorched-earth campaign against the Aztec empire, overcoming fierce resistance and looting everything they could find. Francisco Pizarro carried out a similar extermination against the Inca empire in Peru.
1541 - Faced with an incipient uprising, Francisco Vasquez de Coronado ordered an attack on Moho pueblo, a center of Indian resistance. His men were repulsed when they tried to scale the walls, so they settled in for a siege that lasted from January through March. At last, when the Moho tried to slip away, the Spaniards killed more than 200 men, women and children in a massacre that pacified the region.
1599 - On January 21, Spanish troops led by Captain Vicente de Zaldívar arrived at Acoma Pueblo, seeking revenge for the death of Juan de Oñate’s nephew, whose troops had raped Acoma women. Despite the tactical and numerical odds, the Spaniards destroyed Acoma, killing 800 men, women and children, and taking more than 500 captive. To make the Acoma living reminders of the need for obedience, Oñate condemned all the male captives older than twenty-five to have one foot cut off, which was carried out on February 12. They, and other survivors over 12 years old were given 20 years hard labor.

Some estimate that the pre-Columbian population on the island of Hispaniola was as high as 8 million. By 1516, the Indian population dropped to 12,000. Only 200 remained by 1542. Not one Arawak Indian was left alive on the island by 1555.

Disease, bullet, end of a sword does it matter? Dead is dead. Do you excuse it as ignorance by the Christian conquerors?

Hitler wasn't an atheist - he sited basic Christian dogma as the basis of his "Mein Kaumph". The Pope should have been tried for war crimes because of his apathy. The Japanese followed their basic Shinto belief that their Emperor was a direct descendent of god.

Mao's religion is Communism. A religion without a god, but a religious belief non the less. It's a belief in dogma, is it possible to differentiate Communism from any other religious belief?

Regarding current crime; eliminate the "Moral Crimes" at their foundation these are religions. In fact the prisons are filled with people there because of laws having at their root, religion. Prostitution, drug use, gambling, eliminate all people in jail as a result of these crimes and the police would have the resources and the jails to contend with those who kill, maim, steal, rape, etc.

(in reply to CTclay)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 10:26:53 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		Oh well now Merc,
It is completely unfair to single out the Muslims and the Koran...
I'm not Muslim, nor do I understand why some of them are extremist, but I will say that people who are hungry or are in desperate circumstances as a result of oppression, could tend to be more extreme. My father (may he rest in peace) used to tell his sons, never fight against someone who has nothing to lose by dying.
I'm fairly certain you can find quotes in the bible to confirm any number of injustices done to other humans.
Louis Farrakhan is always finding quotes to back his extremist views on jewish/separatism.
So, am sorry, with all due respect, will have to dismiss your quotes here just as I do Louis Farrakhan's. JMO, M

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 1:39:07 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline 		Well, Merc, you basically define any bad thing that happened in the past five centuries as religious. I think if you reflect on it, you'll back down from saying Mao or Stalin were religious. Athiests just don't have that great a track record when they've been in power. The track record of the religious is bad, but for athiests its worse.

Maybe there are impulses that the vast majority of people have that are either going to be channeled into religion or into something else like communism or fascism. It seems to me that if you channel those impulses into a religion that promotes peace, you're more likely to have a happier world. Then again, nobody believes in a religion for practical purposes -- they believe in it because they think it's true.

You make good points about Imperial Japan adhering to Shintoism. Shintoism was reformed during the American occupation of Japan and is peaceful now (you can find a few exceptions of temples with a nostalgia for the World War II warriors, but that's a small minority). I think it's very hard to see Shintoism as a cause of Japan's imperialism, though. I can't see any actual influence that Christianity had on Hitler. There have been news accounts out recently that Hitler wanted the pope kidnapped. That's some friendship they had.

Yes, you can find all sorts of damning quotes in the Koran (and even worse in the Hadith, the huge set of anecdotes and sayings about Mohammed which were gathered up and preserved after he died). The problem with quoting from the Koran is (1) some of those quotes are from specific circumstances when Mohammed was at war, and they clearly don't apply at all times in all places; (2) other quotes from the Koran support tolerating people of other religions and treating them (relatively) well. Interpretation matters.

Your rendition of the massacres of the Spaniards in the New World proves nothing. Religion just wasn't the cause -- the cause was plunder. Incidentally, my heart bleeds for the Aztecs, but then again all the Aztecs' neighbors' hearts bleed for them also -- literally. As the hearts were ripped out of them in the Aztec temples. Of course, that's another crime of religion.

Your description of religion of course leaves out the fact that the noblest things done in most cultures has come because religions promoted those things. Ethical standards, habits of generosity, charitable institutions didn't come from atheists or even nonreligious ideas, for the most part -- they came from religions.

The jails are filled with the violent and some drug offenders and that's about it. Hardly any prostitutes go to jail and a large number of drug takers go to jail only briefly, if at all. Drug dealers and violent people would be in jail no matter what role religion played in society.

I notice in all your examples that it's men doing the slaughtering. If you're looking for radical solutions to create peace on earth, why not have all men enslaved to women and we could try femdom rule for a few hundred years to see how it works?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 3:49:13 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

why not have all men enslaved to women and we could try femdom rule


One word - HORMONES!

(in reply to CTclay)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 4:05:52 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

It is completely unfair to single out the Muslims and the Koran...
So, am sorry, with all due respect, will have to dismiss your quotes here


Then you would have to dismiss the religion. The quotes were not mine they were direct from the Koran.

I am not singling out or being unfair. After experiencing 9/11 first hand, I wanted to know. That's how I learned of the quotes. No Muslim can be a Muslim and defy the Koran's teachings. I wish is wasn't true, the 'extremists' are the most honest, but no Muslim can separate from the Koran.

Even in crisis the Muslims behave according to their scripture. Read beyond the standard media, and you'll find in the midst of the tsunami disaster, the Muslim governments of Indonesian denied help from Israel, and are shooting at the US troops there to deliver assistance. There is no 'liberal' Muslim who can accept the existence of an 'infidel. Please if you have it, post one quote from one Muslim cleric condemning jihad in general or ANY suicide bombing.

If the day comes and they are conquered maybe they will develop similar to the post WW2 Japanese, creating a 'moderate' form of Mohamedism. I hope that someday Iraq and those areas make those changes. Even better for their people if under the same conditions. As CTclay points out, Shintoism was reformed during the American occupation - coincidence?

Simply wanting to believe something doesn't make it true.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 5:42:29 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

It is completely unfair to single out the Muslims and the Koran...

I am not singling out or being unfair. After experiencing 9/11 first hand, I wanted to know. That's how I learned of the quotes. No Muslim can be a Muslim and defy the Koran's teachings. I wish is wasn't true, the 'extremists' are the most honest, but no Muslim can separate from the Koran.
Muslim governments of Indonesian denied help from Israel, and are shooting at the US troops there to deliver assistance. There is no 'liberal' Muslim who can accept the existence of an 'infidel.

I never meant to insinuate that what you quoted was untrue (in case that's what you understood), I would like to know how you felt about the rest of what I said. What I did mean to say, is that you can find words in any "good book" to support your views. An extremist I've seen speak on television, Minister Louis Farrakhan, often quotes the Bible/Thalmud in expressing his views.
CTClay above makes a point, when he states there are base impulses (good and bad) that are sometimes channelled through religion.

P.S. I have dated a Muslim once, and he was never too extreme to argue things fairly and sensibly.

The point I would like to make, is that the Muslim vs America/Israel Problem is a lot more political/diplomatic (in my view), than it is a religious one. I think the problem is a lot more resource/justice related than a religious one. I would also add that having read "Against all enemies" by Clark, and "Liars and The Lying Liars Who Tell them", a lot of other people agree. Before anyone points out that these people are liberal, as am I in this instance, I'd also like to say, I've listened to/read some Ann Coulter, and Bill Oreilly.
I don't know if my beliefs are "the correct/only way", I simply feel that, as all of us are born with the insticnt to live, that nations of people living in "decent" condition, would not set out to blow selves up and destroy others simply because they are from a different religion. I feel the explanation is a LOT less simplistic than "they hate us because we're free and non-muslim".

The Piscean in me hates to disagree with you, because I've seen your "Merc The Just" name, and have admired everything you've written up to this point. I want to state my feelings, and hopefully not in a disrespectful way, because I do respect you.

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 1/16/2005 6:38:47 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/16/2005 8:27:00 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

The Piscean in me hates to disagree with you, because I've seen your "Merc The Just" name, and have admired everything you've written up to this point. I want to state my feelings, and hopefully not in a disrespectful way, because I do respect you.


This messenger considers himself shot.

I tend to read more liberal reference material than I do conservative. I truly wish the world existed or could exist as they would like. Exclusively reading views that agree with your beliefs is counter productive. It limits your perspective as well as cements your mind shut.

I knew and spoke with many Muslims while in NYC after 9/11. It was they who pointed me to the Koran and the quotes. Similar to your experience, although I didn't date them, I enjoyed their company. They also pointed to the problem that they have by comparing their situation to my ancestry.

Being Italian, raised Catholic, and 1/2 Sicilian, my 'profile' would be a murdering, conquering, enslaving, crusader that exploited indigenous people. But in my case, the leaders, religious and political, of my ancestral home, as well as my since abandoned religion do NOT currently condone past actions. In many cases they have even apologized for their actions. That is a clear critical difference from the political and religious leaders of the Moslem world.

I find it difficult to distinguish the political, diplomatic, from the religion. Please reference a source which does. The Moslem leaders are on record saying Democracy and individual rights such as voting are NOT part of the Moslem faith. They site this as a reason for their very violent opposition to the Iraqi people voting. It's not an Iraq political position from an opposition party, it's the religious leaders, some speaking solely in the position of religious leader, not living in Iraq.

You have no argument from me regarding the fact that if the Middle East region was not floating on oil that there wouldn't be a US presence. If you take away the oil, you'd have the same apathy as exists in US policy toward Rwanda, Somalia, and most of South America. Having an economy based upon the automobile has it's faults. Irony is if you drive around LA, the bluest of blue states, you'll see fleets of 8 cylinder SUV's driving on 8 lanes of traffic at 80 miles an hour, all with a single passenger, prepared in their 4 wheel drive Hummers, Range Rovers, and Cadillac Esplanades for that freak snow storm.

By the way, if existing technology existed in the 1500's the Catholics would have been vilified in the same manner as the current day Muslims. Their 'mission statement' is really no different then the mandates from Rome during that time. The indigenous people of the America's did not have a 1500 version of the US to protect them against the Spanish, although I'm sure they prayed for one.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/17/2005 9:52:20 AM   
INSIDEYOURMIND


Posts: 483
Status: offline 		dated: 11:44 AM EST
European Union May Ban Nazi Symbols
Debate Comes After Photo of Prince Harry's Swastika Armband
By CONSTANT BRAND, AP

BRUSSELS, Belgium (Jan. 17) - The European Union may consider banning Nazi symbols in its 25 member nations after Britain's Prince Harry wore a swastika armband to a costume party, the bloc's top justice official said Monday.

A copy of the Jan. 13 front page of The Sun newspaper in Britain shows Prince Harry wearing a swastika and an army shirt with Nazi regalia at a friend's party.

Franco Frattini, the EU's justice and home affairs commissioner, said he was open to discussing the issue at a Jan. 27 meeting of EU justice ministers.

"It may be worth looking into the possibility of a total ban, a Europe-wide ban," his spokesman, Friso Roscam Abbing, told reporters Monday. "Commissioner Frattini shares the general feeling of opprobrium on the use of the swastika and other Nazi symbols."

The call came after several German conservatives, socialists and liberal democrats in the European Parliament urged a European ban following a scandal last week over photos published worldwide of Harry, third in line to the British throne, wearing the Nazi outfit.

German Socialist Helmut Kuhne called Harry a "royal idiot" for not knowing the consequences and World War II history linked to the Nazi swastika.

Germany already bans such symbols.

But British Liberal Democrat Chris Davies questioned the need to ban the swastika.

"I understand how the burden of history weighs upon my German colleagues' view," he said. "However, banning symbols cannot ban evil and risks playing into the hands of those who would seek to subvert the very liberties we most champion."

Roscam Abbing said Frattini would urge EU ministers to use the swastika incident to push for agreement on EU-wide rules to combat racism, fascism and anti-Semitism.

A proposal was introduced two years ago but discussions have failed to make headway. Roscam Abbing said officials would take care not to violate freedom of expression in devising such a ban.

Frattini's decision to look into an EU-wide ban could further embarrass Queen Elizabeth II, who is to lead British commemorations of the Holocaust in London later this month.


01/17/05 11:15 EST


_____________________________

If I got smart with you.................
How would you know?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/17/2005 3:49:16 PM   
MWill


Posts: 4
Joined: 12/6/2004
Status: offline 		there is a different in collecting war memorabilia and wearing them especially if you're in a glass house, it also comes up when restoring and keeping a german figter plane, its a piece of history with all it's colours and markings, just to remember, but not to show off, the "enola gay" is also a museum piece, despite the horror it caused

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 53
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