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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/13/2005 10:46:12 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		I think the prince intended to get folks all riled up. All his life he's been told how to act, and I think this was one way to rebel against having to live his life according to the expectations of everyone else.

It is interesting to note that the symbol of a swastika is able to evoke such shock and repugnance here in the west; I bet if some prince in the Arab world were to wear a tee shirt with an American flag it would get exactly the same reaction there.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 1:20:53 AM   
txparanoid


Posts: 31
Joined: 12/31/2004
Status: offline 		1) If he wears it again, it might be a political statement. "I thought this was the latest American fashion."

2) Harry is a public figure who did nothing but be born to get the scrutiny of the press. I have the feeling that if Harry assumes the monarchy, he will dissolve it.

I don't think this is a gaffe but a calculated risk.

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 7:49:29 AM   
INSIDEYOURMIND


Posts: 483
Status: offline 		Report Says Prince Charles Orders Son to Visit Auschwitz
By Peter Griffiths, Reuters

LONDON (Jan. 14) - Britain's Prince Charles has ordered his son Harry to visit Auschwitz after he caused outrage around the world by wearing a Nazi uniform to a party, the Sun newspaper reported on Friday.

The paper said heir-to-the-throne Charles was "incandescent with rage" with the 20-year-old grandson of Queen Elizabeth and wants him to make a private trip to the concentration camp to learn more about the Holocaust.


A Londoner reads a newspaper blasting the picture of Britain's Prince Harry, wearing a swastika armband and clutching a cigarette and drink, at a costume party. Video: Apology Accepted?


Jewish groups had demanded Harry go the camp in southwest Poland to make amends for wearing a swastika armband and an army shirt with Nazi regalia at a costume party on Saturday.

The Sun, which broke the Nazi gaffe story on Thursday, quoted an unnamed royal source as saying that Prince Charles also told his older son, William, to travel with Harry to Auschwitz.

"There will be no publicity and they will go with a Jewish charity," the source was quoted as saying in the Sun.


"Their father has visited Auschwitz himself and believes Harry and William would both benefit by grasping a greater understanding of the horrors by actually visiting."

The paper said William, 22, accepted part of the blame because he was present when Harry picked the Nazi costume in a hire shop before the private party in southwest England.

A royal spokesman said he would not comment on any private conversations between Prince Charles and his sons, adding: "We wouldn't rule it out. We wouldn't rule it in."

Harry's behavior drew a storm of protest from around the world, coming two weeks before the Jan. 27 events to commemorate 60 years since the liberation of Auschwitz.

The Nazis murdered six million Jews and millions of others including Poles, homosexuals, Soviet prisoners and Gypsies. Millions more were imprisoned or forced to work as slaves.

Harry, son of the late Princess Diana and third in line to the throne, said he was sorry if he had caused any offense. "It was a poor choice of costume and I apologize," he said.

His apology failed to take the heat out of the row, which led television news bulletins and dominated front pages of British newspapers on Friday.

The mass-market Daily Mail demanded in a huge page one headline: "Come out and say sorry properly!" The downmarket Daily Star, meanwhile, branded Harry "The Fool in the Crown."

The voice of the establishment, The Times, dismissed his apology as "feeble" and said he had fallen in with "a dubious group of self-indulgent young men who are apparently content with a life of pointless privilege."

The Guardian noted: "This young man could one day be our king. That is a sobering thought to many, if not yet to Prince Harry himself."

The Mirror was kinder, reminding readers he was young when his mother Diana died in a Paris car crash in 1997 and "deserves a little understanding."



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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 8:13:11 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		To demand he make amends for a costume at a costume party is perhaps stretching it a bit far. It was not proper, true, but let the reaction fit what was done.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 10:04:52 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

The Sun, which broke the Nazi gaffe story on Thursday, quoted an unnamed royal source as saying that Prince Charles also told his older son, William, to travel with Harry to Auschwitz.


It is pretty much recognised in the UK not to believe anything that The Sun has to say. Newspapers(especially the ones mentioned)... are notorious for trying to inflame people, especially if it involves someone in the public eye.

But that is by the by... the original question is should fetishists be catergorised for their fetish?

Are Leather Lovers animal haters?
Are Political Uniform Lovers supporters of a particular group or country?
Are Rubber Fetishists showing a total disregard for the enviroment?
Are Owners of slaves and slaves themselves showing little regard for the History or the feelings of peoples come from actual slavery?

Its been said that 'as long as its behind closed doors, then its up to the individual, but their kink isnt mine'... but go to a play party... go to a club... see the people around us. Fetish is everywhere... it all stems from something. And that something could be insulting to another. But what makes one right and another so very wrong?

I'd like to thank everyone who's taken the time to contribute... its certainly made me think...

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 10:13:29 AM   
GoddessJules


Posts: 549
Status: offline
quote:

Fetish is everywhere... it all stems from something. And that something could be insulting to another. But what makes one right and another so very wrong?


I'm not in the business of making value judgements on people's kinks. . .I haven't in the past and won't start now. **HOWEVER** if anyone should choose to exhibit their kinks in public. . .they just need to be prepared for whatever reaction they might get. (Positive or negative) Just as people post on public forums. . .their words are open to public scrutiny. . .the same can be said for those that choose to indulge in their kinks in public.

If someone had a "fetish" for painting their face black and acting like Bojangles in public. . .I would just walk on by. I served this country (America) and would have gladly placed my life on the line for people like that (and everyone else up to and including the KKK) to express themselves as they see fit.

Just my two cents

J

< Message edited by GoddessJules -- 1/14/2005 10:17:13 AM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 5:03:55 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline 		This was a minor gaffe, hardly worth the effort of reading about it. Here's why:
1. He's 20 years old. If the indiscretions we committed when we were about that age were splashed across the news ... well, whole forests would be cut down for newsprint.
2. No one seriously thinks Harry is a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer.
3. "The Producers" has Nazi's singing "Springtime for Hitler." In London. Right now. Wearing Nazi regalia to a costume party is less satirical, but is still a bit satirical.
4. On the one hand, the party was private. On the other, Harry should know enough to expect that any private event at which he does anything that could be considered newsworthy in even the most tabloid sense, is no longer private.
5. People wear things like Viking outfits to costume parties and nobody cares, so why should Nazi uniforms be different? Because we have Nazi victims still living. A hundred years from now, or even 50, Nazi regalia will be about as offensive as Viking regalia, seems to me. When I was in college, some guy showed up to a Halloween dance in a KKK sheet. It was offensive, and he was rightly criticized for it.
6. Anyone who's riled up over this should be a thousand times more riled at the real victimization of Jews today in the Middle East and in Europe. Anti-semitism is the rule in the Muslim Middle East and in plenty of places in Europe. THAT is ongoing bigotry and violence and from what I've heard, few Europeans give a damn about it. So spare me the sanctimony.
7. I know of a black guy who likes slavery-play, but he finds it difficult to find dominant women willing to do it. I think people in this lifestyle should be more open to different kinds of fantasy play. What do you suppose Harry likes to do in his uniform?
8. Ah..... ah....... ah....... yawn.


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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 5:21:43 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

6. Anyone who's riled up over this should be a thousand times more riled at the real victimization of Jews today in the Middle East and in Europe. Anti-semitism is the rule in the Muslim Middle East and in plenty of places in Europe. THAT is ongoing bigotry and violence and from what I've heard, few Europeans give a damn about it. So spare me the sanctimony


Which is precisely why this should be given such attention. There are certain actions in history that are so henious that they stand apart. Hitlers' attempt to exterminate a whole group of people is definitely one. I am sure that Harry is not a Nazi, but he is trivializing this horrific event by his actions. Especially against the backdrop of the rising Anti-Semitism that is occurring in Europe. I do hope he is truly sorry. He should be.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 5:43:56 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Which is precisely why this should be given such attention. There are certain actions in history that are so henious that they stand apart. Hitlers' attempt to exterminate a whole group of people is definitely one. I am sure that Harry is not a Nazi, but he is trivializing this horrific event by his actions. Especially against the backdrop of the rising Anti-Semitism that is occurring in Europe. I do hope he is truly sorry. He should be.


I see your point, and there's some validity to it, but I think this controversy deflects rather than lends any real insight into the real problem of modern anti-semitism. Sure, there are some skinhead Nazis around, but far more anti-semitism that's got nothing to do with the Nazis and never did. Concentrate on dead Nazis and, I think, you make the whole problem seem less real. Nazis are in the dustbin of history. Attitudes in Europe and the Mideast aren't. You sweep them away faster when you sweep where the dirt is.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 6:05:58 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		That is precisely my point. Do you think it was only the Nazis in Germany that were anti-semitic? It was most of the German people who accepted and went along with Hitlers' ideas that allowed him to succeed.
If enough people again in 2005 believe that this is no big deal, it just allows this hatred to grow again. That is why Harry needs to understand how wrong he was in wearing what he did, a symbol of anti-semitism taken to it's extreme.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 8:49:16 PM   
RealityFix


Posts: 156
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline 		If you look back in history, it is documented that the Catholic Inquisition exterminated just about as many European "heretics" as the nazis did.

Not to mention what they did to indigenous cultures in the new world. Probably a genocide of about three times that seen during the thiries and forties.

The Pope "apologized" for this a year or so ago-how nice I'm sure it makes a huge difference to all of the victims of the church. And yet no one seems terribly upset to see priest marching about in vestments.

The only real difference here is that the nazis were taken down and demonized..The catholics were accepted as "correct" in thier actions, and thier crimes rationalized away .

Food for thought.

< Message edited by RealityFix -- 1/14/2005 8:50:06 PM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 9:11:18 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		+
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
If enough people again in 2005 believe that this is no big deal, it just allows this hatred to grow again. That is why Harry needs to understand how wrong he was in wearing what he did, a symbol of anti-semitism taken to it's extreme.

That is true for so many instances of people disregarding civil/just behavior; and I sometimes get sick and tired of people preaching PC/controlled response, as opposed to just saying, it's wrong, just don't do it. I'm open to people doing what they want in their home, but don't come out and offend hundreds or millions with something blatantly wrong, and all we can do is understand he is 20yo, no big deal. For example, I feel that the reason he did it was that he is an ignorant/insensitive ass****, but I didn't say that, did I, lol..... JMO, M


< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 1/14/2005 9:14:08 PM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 9:30:09 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

If you look back in history, it is documented that the Catholic Inquisition exterminated just about as many European "heretics" as the nazis did.

Not to mention what they did to indigenous cultures in the new world. Probably a genocide of about three times that seen during the thiries and forties.


Actually, that's completely false. The Inquisition never resulted in nearly the number of killings that the Nazis perpetrated. Six million Jews alone, and many millions of others. As for indigenous cultures of the New World, that wasn't the Church, that was the Spaniards, mostly, and somewhere around 90 percent of the indigenes were killed by diseases.

< Message edited by CTclay -- 1/14/2005 9:31:03 PM >

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 9:43:44 PM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

<snip>(see article)

My question isnt a royalist one... but a Lifestyle one.

Personal opinions on whether it would be wrong to wear such outfits... be they Nazi... Viking... Nun... etc to functions(or in private) or do they risk a person being 'branded' with being a sympathiser? Does a Dominant who enjoys seeing their sub/slave in a school uniform make them an abuser of children?.... Does a specific uniform make a person a Nazi... or a Canadian Mountie?

Do we risk being catergorised for a fetish?

peace & love[/center][/font][/size]


Hi all,

I've read everything and think this has been an interesting conversation. However, here's my 2 cents.

Harry's antics in my opinion, have nothing to do with a 'fettish'; as a political figure in the UK, he used the poor judgement that 20 year olds world wide sometimes posess. I believe, given his station, he deserves what he gets...

But, dark~angel brings up a very compelling question. For any of us who have been in the scene for any length of time, and involved in a SSC group with an education component, one of the things we learn in the scene is respect. Respect for other's expression of their kinks and the willingness to remove ourselves from a scene that bothers us. Do I think it's a particularly good idea to were politically offensive costumes in a public play atmosphere? No, not really, but then again, what may offend me may not offend others, and vice versa. If we say that certain things, like Nazi garb, may be offensive, then what else goes on that list? Religious gear, etc?

I think that most of us who are in the scene need to respect each other. That, for me, does not necessarily mean that I shouldn't make choices that may potentially aggervate people at times; however, being aware that certain choices may be aggervating, I must be willing to bare the burden of the displeasure of others. Conversely, it's not my job to admonish others who make choices that aggervate me. My responsibility is to remove myself from the situation, and if appropriate, discuss the matter privately with the person at a later date.

I think it's really important for me to always go into a public play situation with the mindset that I'm part of a larger entity. As someone who's been a part of my local scene for a number of years now, I have a responsibility to act in a respectful manner to all. And in the end, sometimes that means leaving the nun costume/school boy costume/what have you, at home.

If it's not fun, why bother?

Lily

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/14/2005 10:20:16 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

Are Leather Lovers animal haters? (and other questions)

No. But that doesn't mean that some misguided idiots as shown by this link will try to claim that the fetish implies some politically incorrect belief.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/15/2005 8:34:02 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

As for indigenous cultures of the New World, that wasn't the Church, that was the Spaniards, mostly, and somewhere around 90 percent of the indigenes were killed by diseases.


CTclay,
Without debating the "worst" atrocity, Nazi or New World, it may have been the Spanish nationality but it was at the church's behest. The philosophy was "convert them or kill them". The syphilis, small pox, and other diseases were also 'gifts' from the 'old world'. There was no count to the devastation, but whole cultures and their records were destroyed. The Jewish people still exist, after WWII they had a country established for them. Met any Aztec's? When 100% of a people and/or culture is destroyed the numbers involved are meaningless. Aztec is a culture we know, how many more entire tribes of indigenous people are wiped perminantly from history?

I realized long ago, that religion has been the cause of more death and destruction in the world then ANY other. Eliminate religion today, and the world would have a much better chance of peace.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/15/2005 10:54:36 AM   
RealityFix


Posts: 156
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline 		I stand by my figures clay.

The historical record shows somewhere between 8 and 12 million victims of the inquistion. It took them a few hundred years to get there, but the only thing I can say that makes them better than the Nais is that they were less efficient at it. In the new world,entire populations were either comitted genocide upon,or sold off into slavery.......And it was the priests who came to the new world who were driving it ,at the behest of the Catholic institutions.

Some lame apology isn't going to change the fact that entire cultures and thier legacies no longer exist,due to that.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/15/2005 12:01:08 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

CTclay,
Without debating the "worst" atrocity, Nazi or New World, it may have been the Spanish nationality but it was at the church's behest. The philosophy was "convert them or kill them". The syphilis, small pox, and other diseases were also 'gifts' from the 'old world'. There was no count to the devastation, but whole cultures and their records were destroyed. The Jewish people still exist, after WWII they had a country established for them. Met any Aztec's? When 100% of a people and/or culture is destroyed the numbers involved are meaningless. Aztec is a culture we know, how many more entire tribes of indigenous people are wiped perminantly from history?

I realized long ago, that religion has been the cause of more death and destruction in the world then ANY other. Eliminate religion today, and the world would have a much better chance of peace.


Actually, the only official body condemning what happened to the Aztecs and Incas was the church. It was late, it was ineffective, but it was the only one. They weren't being killed at the Church's behest. Just consult a history book. My point about diseases was that you can't exactly blame anyone for purposefully infecting New World peoples with them. "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond is one of a thousand books that mentions that. Ninety percent is the common figure on the proportion killed by diseases brought by Europeans. What are your sources?

You say religion led to more death and destruction than any other cause. I did a little Web searching, and you may be right, but it's hard to get accurate figures, since much of the history is buried under propagandistic sectarian attacks and then attacks against religion.

The idea that 8 million died in the Inquisition, as RealityFix says, is ludicrous. The Inquisition involved judicial proceedings that couldn't kill that many people in the time it had to run. RealityFix is focused more on the Catholic Church. I'd love to hear what his sources are.

If religion is so terrible, why have atheists been so much more effective at killing? In the 20th century, Hitler killed more than any religion had in many centuries (at least since the 30 years war), and Stalin killed more than him, and Mao killed more than Stalin. Eliminate religion today and you'd have people with a fantatic cast of mind and criminals turning to ideology instead of religion -- just as they did in the 20th century.

Without religion, how do you know that peace would even be a value? Many societies wanted their neighbors dead before they were aware of a religion that valued peace. Many, many Native American languages and the languages of other primitive tribes referred to outsiders as "nonpeople" and they were mostly at war with them.

"Eliminate religion today and the world would have a much better chance of peace." Is that the way religion has worked in our society in the past 200 years or so? Are the prisons filled with the religious or the irreligious? And if a few nuts nowadays commit crimes in the name of religion, does that condemn entire religions with millions of adherents?



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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/15/2005 4:50:03 PM   
INSIDEYOURMIND


Posts: 483
Status: offline 		Prince Harry Condemned in Poll for Nazi Uniform

LONDON (Jan. 15) - Almost three out of four Britons believe Queen Elizabeth's grandson Prince Harry was wrong to wear a Nazi uniform to a costume party, according to an opinion poll on the gaffe that provoked worldwide outrage.

Front page of British newspaper, The Sun with Britain's Prince Harry with a cigarette and drink in hand, wearing a swastika armband at a party.

A majority questioned by the Sunday Mirror also thought that Harry's elder brother, Prince William, should have stopped him making such a choice of uniform.

Harry, who is third in line to the British throne, stirred up an international furor when photos of him wearing a swastika at a costume party appeared in the Sun tabloid newspaper.

Harry, younger son of Charles and the late Princess Diana, said in a statement he was sorry if he had caused any offense over his "poor choice" of costume, but politicians have called for him to make a public apology.

Both princes were reprimanded by Charles but royal sources said their father thinks Harry's written apology was sufficient.

Unlike the gaffe-prone Harry, William rarely puts a foot wrong and is popular in Britain.

But The Sunday Mirror poll, compiled by ICM, showed that 55 percent believed William should have stopped his brother. Harry's choice was condemned by 71 percent of those questioned.

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RE: Judgements on a fetish. - 1/15/2005 7:19:53 PM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Religion is not bad, religion is a wonderful tool to spiritual enlightenment. Fantatisam on the other hand is bad.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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