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Why??? - 9/24/2006 6:07:31 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

This is stemming from the thread question which I didnt want to hijack so I desided to bring my own question into a new thread!!

In a scene which I have written about here as the only scene to ever go not so good with Master basically I probubly would have passed out iffin he wasnt so atuned to me and my needs... Despite him asking me several times if I was ok and me saying yes, I really WASNT ok and wound up with a major panic attack and honestly if he wouldnt have stoped it when he did we probubly would have wound up in the ER because my panic attacs can get so bad I stop beeing able to breath (it has happend befor that I have needed to be put on an oxygen tank)

So yeah I know while in reality we are able to STOP the play some of us really arent so able to stop things!!!! Its dangerouse so why do we do it??? Why cant we look out for our own safety?? I mean ok I know those of us who are lucky enough to be owned aspecailly by Masters that read us well we take for grantid that they will know and stop things befor they go to far... but really they are just human and make mistakes so really we do need to have our own safety in our hands as well so why dont we... like I said im as gulty of this as others but why I mean I understand for part that I do it because I dont want to dissapoint my Master by stoping him from doing as he pleases with me even iffin i am not doing well, I dont have a safe word but he always asks me if Im ok and I know if I did tell him one of the times that I wasnt so great that I wasnt so great that he would slow down a little bit... Is it that we DONT WANT the controll that has been given to us in that situation I know I love NOT haveing any controll but then we come back to the safe sane thing...

I dont know guess im just curiouse..

Magik's slave

< Message edited by MagiksSlave -- 9/24/2006 6:09:34 PM >

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

Post #: 1

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 6:21:13 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

A lot of it really is just not wanting to disappoint the other person, not wanting to appear like a weakling, not making it look like the dom doesn't know you "good enough" to mind read and be perfect, as well a lot of people take "safe word" to mean "scene ends" and it's not necessarily that you want the whole scene to stop for the night.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 2

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 6:28:15 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

Exactly LA but how do we fix this.. I mean a trip to the ER will end things for sure while useing as afe word or communicating distress may just slow things down.. I know for myself I never want to dissapoint Master and part of the reason I didnt say anything to him was I wanted to take what he wanted me to take even though my body was telling me different things...It became a dangerouse thing, even though I was totaly able to release myself from the bondage I was in I mentally couldnt do it, I feel as slaves and subs this is an issue many of us have and somethign that should really be adressed... what can we do to fix it??

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 3

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 6:33:30 PM

bigdaninwi

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/31/2005
Status: offline

MagikSlave -

Safety threads are always welcomed, so first of all, Thank You for sharing your experience and giving people and opportunity to express them selves.

In my experiences, when I have discovered that I have mis-read or was not as aware of my submissive troubles or she couldn't safe word for whatever reason. We changed things around a little bit. In previous posts, people have come up with innovative and fun ways to ensure their submissive safety. It maybe, I check in with her more often and whisper in her ear an gauge her safety from the response. Another one is give her a cloth or something to hold. If it falls out, we are done.

Dom's like to tell you we can read your mind. However, if you can't communicate your needs, then it is incumbent on me to be attentive for you. I will then always error on less than more.

IMHO
BigDan

_____________________________

"Loving the master - Not as apprentices do, loves a master as a master."

Nietzche

"On the Genealogy of Morals."

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 4

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 6:37:12 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Well one thing is to get rid of the safe word and substitute ongoing regular communication. You leave behind all the baggage attached to the "safeword" and can just TALK to eachother as you would in conversation.

Secondly, discuss with eachother that bringing up issues or stopping the scene for awhile does not necessarily mean the end of the scene, or that you can't start doing something else completely.

Thirdly, practice will make perfect. Have him begin asking you more communicative questions during the scene- making you describe how it feels, giving you direct feedback.

Lose the "scene/no scene" dichotomy and start making scenes and interactive experience in which you BOTH are responsible for making the other have a good experience.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to bigdaninwi)

Post #: 5

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 6:45:08 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

Thank you BigDan Sir and LA.. Me and Master have no safe words but he does ask me frequently if Im ok.... I find it so very hard to speak when in sub space which is another danger in and of itself.. I trust Master totaly but that doesnt change that he is human and he cant be expected to ALWYAS know it isnt fair that any of us expect that of our Masters.. I know for myself me and Master have been working on things...

My real consern comes in with other sub slaves who have the same problems aspecially ones that are cassualy sceneing and or have no Master I dont know I guess because it has happend to me and I have heard others describe similar feelings Im justg conserned and maybe thinking about all the smart people here that we could do a think tank so to speak to help out eachother and maybe find a way to breach that "I dont want to dissapoint Master by telling him Im NOT ok" mentallity so many of us slaves/subs have.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 6

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 6:49:52 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

I always prefered communication to safe words. My fear has aways been (and is justified becasue it has happened once) that the sub wil forget the safe word. When that is depended upon too heavily, then the sub is paying too much attention to that and not enough to what you are doing. OR they will orget what youve selected if a scene gets going awry for some reason.
Personally, I ask my boy constantly if he is ok, if everything is alright and how he feels. He had originally been annoyed by all the questioning, becasue he doesnt like to talk during play. However, the one time there was an issue, he was more than happy that I ask so often.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 7

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 6:56:00 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Perhaps it has to do with a need of outward approval. you want your Master to be proud of you....this makes you feel special. That, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing. It can BECOME a bad thing if this is how you define your self worth. Basing your sense of worth on the opinion of another is a precarious thing. Inevitably, you will come crashing down because, eventually, they will disapprove of you. If you value yourself, first, then your Master being disappointed, while it will certainly have an affect on you, it won't destroy you. Do you think this might be true for you?

In reality, we can't tell you why you do anything. You have to look inside and question yourself. Self analysis is a long, hard process. Sometimes, it has taken me hours to get to the root of a problem..sometimes years.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 8

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 7:17:31 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

Ah yes Fire... I always wish Master to be pleased with me and hate when I hav dissapointed him however it has never destroyed me to have him disaprove I just dont wish for it to happen.. I know other slaves identafie with this aspect as well it is a sensativ issue but you would think we could communicate. I mean logically I know Master will be more dissapointed about the ER trip because I didnt communicat then if I had and he had to maybe slow down or even stop the play... since I know this loicaly why doesnt it compute into beeing able to say "no Master Im really not ok" I know Im not the only one like this and I guess that is why it conserns me we should be able to be able to completley trust our Masters and tell them everything that is going on in our heads..

An DA Ma'am I can relate I cant speak during play I dont knw why I jsut have great trouble with it

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 9

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 7:29:30 PM

OhReallyNow

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

this slave dislikes pain of any kind...literally....the sight of a clamp can cause her heart to jump in fear because she knows the pain that will soon be coming
with that being said, this slave meant what she said when she stated that she does not have a safeword. Period. For several reasons

one, that even though this slave dislikes pain, she will endure it for Master. She finds pleasure in knowing that Master enjoys her little groans and moans of pain, and that he takes pride in seeing the pleading in her eyes, knowing that she would never say 'please stop'

another reason this slave does not have a safeword is that she truly does trust that Master will stop when she reaches a level that is becoming too intense.

this slave does not look upon this as a way of not taking responsibility for herself; but rather as a way of releasing and becoming free to just be. Placing herself into the hands of another, literally; frees this slave and allows her to explore areas that she would never have ventured into otherwise

_____________________________

~ When anger rises, think of the consequences
CONFUCIUS ~

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 10

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 7:57:17 PM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

lol

i think we're safe so long as we can say "i'll live through it" If it starts to get to the point that it seems like it might be unrecoverable thats where i start to buck up with my own good. Course i dunno if thats ever cropped up in public....

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to OhReallyNow)

Post #: 11

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 8:32:59 PM

Charis309

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline

Hello A/all.
One way i have personally tackeled the "i don't want to dissappoint..." is this. i would rather disappoint Sir momentarily by telling Him that i'm not okay at a particular moment rather than risking damage, mentally or physically to His toy. If damage did happen, and i didn't say anything, then i'm sure He would be even more disappointed by my not having trusted Him to be understanding or maybe even be angry. He trusts me to make sure i let him know where i'm at and i trust Him to hear me, i'd rather momentarily dissapoint than to break that trust. Sir reads me very well, sometimes better than i know myself. We engage in a lot of breath play and He has already stopped an activity (which at the moment my mind cried out "but i'm okay" only to realize a few minutes later that no, i wasn't okay but near having a panic attack). We also have employed the "tap out" method as neither of us particular enjoys the actual usage of a safeword (we have one but i've only used it once). During a session, if something is creeping on the too intense line, i will tap, Him, the bed, the floor, with whatever i happen to have available, hands or feet usually. He gauges the level of intensity by the urgency of my tapping. It works well for us.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 12

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 10:04:07 PM

yaqeta

Posts: 59
Status: offline

This was described once in another forum as a characteristic that some subs have: the person said something along the lines of, they are particularly service oriented to the point where they are simply not able to end a scene, and really don't want to be able to either. That very much rang true for me, and I prefer this way of putting it than just feeling like we don't want to disappoint. For starters, I really feel its more than that, but also putting it that way makes it sound like a weakness, when in the right context it can also be a great strength, showing real orientation to complete submission....

but the OP refers to the weakness part of it so after pointing that out I'll get back to the point.....

For me, it just highlights how important it is for me to be in a committed partnership with an attentive and responsible Master. I still have casual partners (when permitted to) but having that one person who I can really give everything to enables me to keep a little bit of "myself" present in my mind during casual play, enough to be able to take care of myself if I need to. Having this self awareness means that when I am single/unowned I need to be very careful who I scene with and under what circumstances, as I know all too well that I can't control what happens even with a safeword when it gets right down to it. And yes, this is much, much easier said than done. In the end what it means for me is that I need to recognise that complete submission (if there is such a thing, otherwise as close as possible to it) is a need for me - so I need to make sure that need is being met in a safe way to protect myself from being harmed by it in a riskier situation...

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 13

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 10:52:34 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

fast reply

I think people see safewords as some sort of sacred thing that only get uttered if one is dying or something. It is a form of communication, if it does not work for you then do not use it, if it helps facilitate communication, use it. It is not the only form of communication we have, but it is a form of communication we have.

I think what you described as far as panic needs to be addressed in a myraid of ways, such as a signal when he asks you if you are ok,... like a nod or a shake of the head... if you do not respond then he can tell you are in trouble. It is just an idea, take it if it is valuable, leave it if it is not. ( I suffer from anxiety, but it seems so antithetical to subspace to me I never considered the two existing together... thanks for sharing this)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to yaqeta)

Post #: 14

RE: Why??? - 9/24/2006 11:43:41 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

Also to be considered is the fact that many of us do the SM play to find the limits we have and then extend them.
ie I can take an hour of flogging before I reach the point hwhere I need to stop, but next year I may be able to take 2 hours before I reach that point. Part of SM play is about handing over the trust to the opther person to know when you are at your limits otherwise you might stop before you have reached them based on fear. It's a risk we take. Part and parcel of letting go and trusting the person is to let go of the tendancy to sell ourselve short in the area of limits.
The body can take much more than you think it can , the mind can as well. Those are lessons many of us have forgotten are reinforced by SM play. Trust, and knowing what you think are your limits are not.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 15

RE: Why??? - 9/25/2006 1:01:27 AM

mons

Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

greetings

your not at fault your master should had seen you were in troulbe this is why we are dominant we are the ones who must see what is wrong you give off signs he missed them. it is when you are not able to speak. that is when we must see your sign of distress and even if you did not say anything you body show us we have gone to far we much pull back and check you over if you tie wemust untie you and give youy after care i wonder what this master a sadist and did not want to see the sign of your ditress? i hope if you still with this master i do hope you come to him and speak of this. remember your not at fault ok

take care and be well

mons

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 16

RE: Why??? - 9/25/2006 3:46:37 AM

D1961wildchild

Posts: 17
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline

Like all of us I have history ... I tend to shut down when something goes too far ... I do not think I am capable of safe word or even tapping ... it is not something I consciously do but something that just happens ... Sir and I have discussed this after the first time I did it ... in a way it is like a negative spacing ... but communication, discussion has made it possible for Him to push boundries, my trust in Him comes from the lengths we have gone to to know eachother ... He can tell by my breathing and reactions where I am .... and I have not shut down since but I also know He is not perfect, not a mind reader so it is up to me to speak to let Him know who I am and what makes me tick ... If He is willing to take responsibility for my well being in play then I need to take responsibility and be honest and up front about things that He needs to know to make judgements for my safety, sainity and well being

_____________________________

formally redheadedfire4u ...
Driver1961's redheadedfire now lol ...
warm smiles to all

(in reply to mons)

Post #: 17

RE: Why??? - 9/25/2006 9:03:32 AM

MASTERRocker

Posts: 277
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Kitchener-Waterloo, ON
Status: offline

Always do what is in the best interests of BOTH parties = to give a safe word is NOT a negative thing; it is safe, sane common sense and open communication. To discuss afterwards why and how can things be done better increases the trust and intimacy

(in reply to D1961wildchild)

Post #: 18

RE: Why??? - 9/25/2006 11:17:44 AM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

Yeah, I also shut down and once the scene goes past a certain point, am incapable of stopping it. I don't think its about wanting to please the person I'm playing with in a conscious, obvious way but more of a sense of temporarily losing the ability to feel what kind of state I'm in and gage my reactions so I become very compliant. (I don't know if this makes sense.)

I've always used red and yellow because they're simple and easy to remember when my brain starts shutting down. They're words that I use when I'm not in a position to communicate at a high level. I'm much more likely to use yellow because if I'm in a scene, I don't want it to stop even when it hurts. And, if I do use red, its because I'm panicking and can no longer integrate the intense sensations.

But, I've been in enough situations where I haven't used red, but had strong reactions later, to know I need to be careful. Lately, I've been playing with a friend who isn't a sadist, but does me the favor of playing with me and is only too happy to stop when I say 'red.' I have the sense that I'm pleasing him when I say 'red' and this keeps me safe while I get things sorted.

Not being in a committed relationship, I also put a lot of weight on negotiating limits for specific scenes. Often those limits have nothing to do with what I can physically take, but are for other, scene specific, reasons. (for ex: i just don't want to go there at the moment) Several times, I've played with someone who ignored those limits, and when I brought it up with them after the scene, they came back with, but you were fine and you didn't stop it. That always concerns me because it makes negotiations pointless and, in my mind, I wonder how much they respect me and what that portends for a potential future. I've never played with such a person twice. The reason I set limits cautiously is precisely because I know how much I can shut down, and that its easy for me to reach a point, even outside of a scene, where I can't communicate or stop whats happening but just go with it until I freak. I don't want to be taken there with everyone I play with.

Those are just some of the things that I've found to work for me. If I were in a long term relationship, it wouldn't bother me because I would, ideally, trust my partner to know my real limits, and to be able to bring me back from either panic or shut down. It sounds as if the OP was with a partner who did understand those real limits.

(in reply to MASTERRocker)

Post #: 19

RE: Why??? - 9/25/2006 1:10:29 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Well one thing is to get rid of the safe word and substitute ongoing regular communication. You leave behind all the baggage attached to the "safeword" and can just TALK to eachother as you would in conversation.

Secondly, discuss with eachother that bringing up issues or stopping the scene for awhile does not necessarily mean the end of the scene, or that you can't start doing something else completely.

Thirdly, practice will make perfect. Have him begin asking you more communicative questions during the scene- making you describe how it feels, giving you direct feedback.

Lose the "scene/no scene" dichotomy and start making scenes and interactive experience in which you BOTH are responsible for making the other have a good experience.

Hello A/all,

I am a strong proponent of safe words in situations where the two are not really comfortable with each other.

But I spend a tremendous amount of scene time checking in to find out how she is feeling. There is a chemistry that comes from that sort of connection that really appeals to me.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 20

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