Help Please

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PlayfulOne -> Help Please (9/25/2006 10:18:24 AM)
We went to a private party Saturday night to which we had been invited by a very close friend of ours. She is a female swtitch who has become vbery close to us, spends time with us, and wanted us to meet some of her friends and the people she knew. The Dominant of the couple who host the party lives close to our friend and she has played with him 2 or 3 times as someone who was close to her that she could trust as a play partner (she lives almost 3 hours from us). From the moment we walked into the door things felt off. There was an immediate tension in the air between us. I was rather confused and didn't know what the hell was going on. 1st thing is he wanted to put her on the cross and made him wait until we got there (the party started at 7 we didn't get there until 8:30ish). So now he puts her on the cross and starts their scene, and the longer it went the further down hill things went. He kept her on the cross much longer than they had ever played, he played her much rougher, and marked her in ways they had never agreed upon. My little one and I were both uncomfortable. It seemed half way through that things had taken a bad turn there were times when both of us had thoughts that we should interject. BUT, not knowing what they had agreed upon, not knowing how hard they played together, we both kept silent. He cut her with the knife, which they had never agreed upon, he severly marked her with a whip, which was another no no. He was very sloppy a couple of times and I thought had hit her in the side of the face but thought no thats just the view from the side. Well later we found out he had. She was violently shaking and jerking from him as he swung. We both thought if she wanted him to stop she would say something, but the problem again once she gets in to that submissive mood, she can't say no. That night ended any relationship they had, and she won't play with him anymore. We felt bad because the scene was directed at us. He was showing off and marking what he wanted to claim as his, since we now have come to understand there was some jealousy directed at her relationship with us. He was also rather upset that she was leaving with us after the party and not staying. My long winded way of getting to the question ask this. What should we have done? Not being sure of any of the specifics of there arrangment we hesitated to speak up. But within 5 minutes of it being over, when we were giving her the after care (he started telling her he loved her and she told him to get away) and details started to fall we knew that we had been right in what we were thinking and feeling. No matter what I feel guilty for not speaking up and letting things just continue as they did. Do you think I should hacve acted, or just waited till the end? It was certainly a learning experience. I have never gotten into a pissing contest like that with another Dominant or ever thought of acting that way so the whole event caught me by surprise. Thanks for your time and thoughts K

spanklette -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 10:28:25 AM)
That's a terrible spot to be put in...but when you're watching a scene, specifically in a private setting you become a part of that scene. You are a participant, if not an active one. At any point, you have the right to step away from the scene if not interrupt it. In this case, had you guys stepped away the scene probably would have come to an end. If your gut tells you something is wrong, then something is probably wrong. I've certainly never regretted listening to my gut for the sake of mine or someone else's scene.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 10:29:12 AM)
A couple of things: 1) His stuff is not your stuff, i.e. the emotional baggade and how he chose to handle it that he brought to the situation does not have to be your concern. 2) Her stuff is not your stuff. She and she alone has to learn to say stop. If she knows that she cannot physically respond, put something in her hand that she drops in order to stop. Even slaves have the right to say no...there may be consequences for doing it, but they can still choose that option. 3) If there was no DM (private parties usually don't have them) and you knew that she hadn't agreed to specific things, by all means voice your concerns. A Dominant worth their salt will appreciate the concern of friends and explain what's going on. Always follow your gut. If they get mad, you still have the knowledge that you followed what you felt was right...even if it wasn't. You can offer a nurturing relationship for her in order to heal...and you can offer an emotionally safe place where she can explore why she doesn't respond and/or ways that she can respond in order to end the scene. But, in the end, her stuff is her stuff and she's the one who has to sort it. Master Fire

Level -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 10:35:35 AM)
What a horrible situation to be in, K. I totally understand what you did (and did not do), and what you're feeling. I think Fire said it well, their baggage is not yours, and she ultimately had the responsibility to speak up. I hope she learned from it, and I do not mean that harshly.

Caitriona -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 10:41:35 AM)
I am very sorry - for everyone involved. I think Master Fire had some excellent points, and I have made notes just in case I ever find myself in a similar situation. I hope that you (and yours) are able to help her heal. My thoughts are with all of you.

gretchenS -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 10:46:12 AM)
My Dom and I have discuss your situation. We both agree that it is in fact a very uncomfortable place to be. The line beetwen abuse and play can be very blury, so you might never know for sure exactely what is going on. If you feel that the situation is going out of the dominant's hands, you have to say something. There's no damage done if you tell him or suggest him to slow down, There could be a serious damage if you tell him to do it harder and faster. When I first attended a scene party, My Dom and I started playing with a flogger which was passed to a domme, and then to another dominant. Everything was great except by this last person who did something that shouldn't have done, which made me feel really uncomfortable. Unfortunately, my Dom wasn't close enough so I could complain and I was too new on public play to know exactely what to do. The domme saw what was going on and stoped it right away. If it wasn't for her, I don't know what I would have done to stop it.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 10:47:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam A couple of things: 1) His stuff is not your stuff, i.e. the emotional baggade and how he chose to handle it that he brought to the situation does not have to be your concern. 2) Her stuff is not your stuff. She and she alone has to learn to say stop. If she knows that she cannot physically respond, put something in her hand that she drops in order to stop. Even slaves have the right to say no...there may be consequences for doing it, but they can still choose that option. 3) If there was no DM (private parties usually don't have them) and you knew that she hadn't agreed to specific things, by all means voice your concerns. A Dominant worth their salt will appreciate the concern of friends and explain what's going on. Always follow your gut. If they get mad, you still have the knowledge that you followed what you felt was right...even if it wasn't. You can offer a nurturing relationship for her in order to heal...and you can offer an emotionally safe place where she can explore why she doesn't respond and/or ways that she can respond in order to end the scene. But, in the end, her stuff is her stuff and she's the one who has to sort it. Master Fire Geeze...ok, that really kinda sounded harsh. I totally didn't mean to minimalize your, or her, pain in the situation. Be kind to her and be kind to yourselves. It's HARD when the people we care about have been hurt...and we're doubting ourselves and how we reacted (or didn't). Have compassion for what went one...then, do what I told you. LMAO Master Fire

juliaoceania -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 10:47:15 AM)
Wow! Hindsight is 20/20, and you did the best you knew how with the information you had. If I saw that I would ask my Daddy if we could leave in his ear because it is a private house and no dungeon master to ask to help. That is all you can do, is not consent to be involved in a scene that looks bad... leave. Maybe I am wrong about that, but that is my opinion. At the end of the day I would hope my Daddy would not want to be friendly with one such as this, but that would be his choice.

raiken -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 10:50:26 AM)
i am sure you will receive many perspectives on this, so here is mine. i have been in the presence of situations like this, and have experienced this uncomfortable feeling. i believe that you did right (for yourself) by not interfearing in another's relationship, and allowing the participants to come to their own unbiased conclusions without outside interfearance. This insures that they must look to themselves for the issues that surfaced, and cannot draw others into it (such as yourself) or place blame or responsibility on anyone but themselves for their actions and choices. Coming inbetween two people who are personally involved, especially without an invite to do so, in times like that can be dangerously hair splitting, with inner conflicts of perspectives as to what is right and wrong beween two people concerning their relationship or scene. As long as no one was being brutallly abused against their will, which you stated that you had no way of knowing before hand anyway, i believe you did the right thing. It would be different if she were crying out to be released, and even then you had no way of knowing if this would even be a part of how they interact, or to what degree. i feel that it is also selfish and disrespectful on their part, to use other folks (in this case you and your lil one) in that way when scening, unless of course the other folks in attendance agree to be used as a part of the scene.

Silvermoon -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:02:38 AM)
Hmm I'm somewhat torn on this issue because it brings to the forefront a number of issues, I personally have voiced concern about in my area, or the general lifestyle. Some issues I'm torn between. I don't wish to argue with Master Fire Ma'am however... I've often said, that BDSM is a foundation and we are it's walls, working together we've the strength to hold up against nearly anything, if one should crumble we all should share the burden and spread it's weight. A private play party rarely has ESTABLISHED Dm's...but at what point did it no longer become our responsibility as lifestylers to not look out for other lifestylers? Now I'm not saying there is blame here on the parties watching the scene, but there is that lovely phrase "Better to be Safe than Sorry". I think we ALL need to look out for each other, and there's not nearly enough of that going around anymore. There's a million things that COULD have been done to avoid this situation (one being a personal rule, If someone's on the cross, there's someone ELSE behind it to watch facial expressions) But *hit, can and does happen. Ultimately I feel the blame is shared. While the majority of it it comes down to the parties doing an active scene in a situation such as this. How many times has it been discussed, the topic of safewords, and often how submissives/slaves/bottoms 'zone out' or are stubborn and refuse to, or forget to safeword? I honestly have to ask, how much of the responsibility of ending a scene should be the SUBS responsibility? As a Dominant are we not taught (at least most of us should have been) how to control ourselves, read our subs body language (flinching, depth and times of breathing to show mental/physical state), negotiate a scene before starting...and so forth. And further, do we need preach that our submissives should defer to us in all decisions and they should follow our lead? Many won't speak up for various reasons. That being said I've spoken up (mostly in local venues) about this 'need' people seem to have to 'show off' for other people. It's why for years I refused to do public scenes and why I'm thankful for DM's. There seems to be this need for some Tops to 'show off their skills and how powerful they are' and for subs to 'be the greatest at taking the highest amounts of pain or what have you'. I will gladly stop a scene if someone has concern, smile, thank them for caring..and continue. It makes ME feel safe, comfortable and cared about far more than annoyed at a few seconds pause. In the end, perhaps it's better that she knows now, while she had two persons there she can trust to help her after such a traumatic event. I know that this sounds harsh and I truly do not mean it to be. Believe me, I sympathize and empathize greatly with this. I hope, from the bottom of my heart, she is ok and will not suffer heavy emotional impact from this event. I hope that she can continue to count on your support. It seems that you care deeply or you would not have posted to the board. And that is a wonderful thing. So perhaps try to focus (as much as you can) on the positive. This fellow outted himself, for what's truly in his heart, and she learned who she can truly lean on. Experiences make us stronger, if we have the courage to stand up, learn, and move on from it. So in a nutshell, yes, speak up. It's easier to mend a friendship/relationship with an appology later and no harm done...than to mend the body and spirit for (possibly) weeks/years later from the trauma.

MsKatHouston -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:03:01 AM)
First, I very much agree with Master Fire. It was a terrible situation you were in and I feel for you. However, I am pretty much a stickler on not interrupting someone's scene unless I was in a position where it would be appropriate to do so. You did not know what was negotiated. If I was in the position, I would have done the same as you and would also have felt bad afterward. Be there for her now, help her get over it and try to assist in honing her ability to speak up for herself when needed. quote: From the moment we walked into the door things felt off. This is the only part I would think you may have done something on. Had you walked in and things felt off maybe a quick aside with the sub to see if everything was ok and then asked if there was anything you could assist with, perhaps a safety reminder. Or, you could have left because you felt uncomfortable. Neither is your responsibility to do so and well, hindsight is 20/20. There are particular issues that the sub, however, should have been responsible for. Some of the things you stated would have been red flags for me, the jealousy, showing off, upset for not staying...was this known before they started playing? If so, maybe it was the wrong time to play. Maybe she should have requested a DM or third party to intervene if necessary. But mostly, the safe word, asking to stop was an issue. For the dominant...I would have little respect for not stopping. Accidents happen but to play it off or to play at a pace that exceeded skill level so haphazardly was downright irresponsible of him. I do hope she has learned from this and will be able to take from it something positive. I wish all of you good luck in moving past this but I wouldn't beat yourself up about it either.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:05:25 AM)
I have to echo everyones' thoughts that this is a really difficult spot to be in, and I can find nothing negative in your reactions. However, personally, one of the things that I decided a long time ago was how (in theory) to react in a similar situation (and not just bdsm related situations). I have a couple of thoughts that bear on how and when I decide to "interfer" or interject myself into a situation. This is NOT a dig at you, PlayfulOne, but just some ideas about how to think of things if you are ever in such a quandry in the future. My first point of reference is: If I'm going to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong on the side of caution. If you ask yourself which is better, to be embarrassed because you interfered when you were uncertain, or to be embarrassed and have the negative consequences occur that you were concerned about ... well ... you're going to be embarrassed either way, but one is easier to live with than the other. My second point of reference is: The Abilene Paradox is a killer. The Abilene Paradox (and you can click on the link for more details) is simply the effect that a group often "goes along" with something that they ALL know is wrong, simply because no one is willing to voice an objection. If you are aware of the psychology of the process, and watch out for it in such situations, it gives you a little extra "moral courage" to take that stand, and be the one who says "Whooaaa, wait a minute.". Just some ideas, and I hope you don't take it in a negative light, as it is not meant to be so. Just food for thought. FHky

Wildfleurs -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:29:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne No matter what I feel guilty for not speaking up and letting things just continue as they did. Do you think I should hacve acted, or just waited till the end? It was certainly a learning experience. I have never gotten into a pissing contest like that with another Dominant or ever thought of acting that way so the whole event caught me by surprise. I think that at the end of the day you should not feel like anything that happened was your responsibility. Its unfortunate that it happened and that the dominant felt the need to prove something to you. Personally if it were someone that I considered a friend, I would have pulled the dominant in question aside when they paused for a moment. I believe my owner would have done the same since I've seen him do so. But either way, it certainly sucks that it happened. C~

CrappyDom -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:32:07 AM)
What you really need to ask is whether this person is actually someone you want to be involved in. They clearly cannot pick suitable partners, they have difficulty saying no and setting boundaries, they permit rather serious drama to exist in their lives.

LotusSong -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:36:47 AM)
I would have followed my gut. If it's not right.. it's not right. I would have taken me and mine and silently gotten up and left. If he was just "showing off".. that would have given him pause.. If it was an intentionally rugged scene as you described.. it would have been nice of him to take his guests aside and let them know what to expect and the submissive assure them it is indeed consensual. That is what I would have done.

losttreasure -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:37:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Wow! Hindsight is 20/20, and you did the best you knew how with the information you had. If I saw that I would ask my Daddy if we could leave in his ear because it is a private house and no dungeon master to ask to help. That is all you can do, is not consent to be involved in a scene that looks bad... leave. Maybe I am wrong about that, but that is my opinion. At the end of the day I would hope my Daddy would not want to be friendly with one such as this, but that would be his choice. Ummm, Julia.... I know you don't mean this how it sounds. You wouldn't walk out on a friend who might be in trouble, would you?

MASTERRocker -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:39:39 AM)
Being invited to a scene = means that you are participating - whether you agree or not. You are there to provide an audience and atmosphere for someone else. You do have a responsibility - (I know many will probably disagree with me on this) - to voice an opinion if you feel that it has gone south - and is abusive. We forget many times to regulate the SSC - Safe , Sane and Consensual. Being in the lifestyle; we at times need to safeguard against the extremes. Check to see that both are willing still to continue - if it is against your jusdement and tastes - walk and leave the scene - many times that will end it.

MstrssScarlet -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:43:30 AM)
I think Silvermoon was right on. I always discuss safewords (I use two - one to slow down and one to stop) with any submissive/slave before playing with them. However, I do not rely on that safeword alone. As already pointed out, some bottoms are stubborn about using their safeword or get so panicked that they forget that just one word will bring everything to a stop. If the bottom is flinching a lot or seems in distress, I will ask them if they're still ok. This can be done discreetly while changing floggers or checking their restraints. If they're not coherent enough to answer me, the scene is over. If they're in a position where movement is minimal (such as the stocks) and I can't see their face, I always have someone spotting from the front for me. They are watching them for the duration of the scene and I in turn am watching them. I don't find it to be a significant distraction. Just a glance every now and then and a signal (such as a nod of the head) and I know everything is ok. As dominants, it's our responsibility to learn to read body language and the signs of distress a bottom may exhibit. Mistress Scarlet

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 11:43:50 AM)
quote: What a horrible situation to be in, K. I totally understand what you did (and did not do), and what you're feeling. I think Fire said it well, their baggage is not yours, and she ultimately had the responsibility to speak up. I hope she learned from it, and I do not mean that harshly. Agreed

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Help Please (9/25/2006 12:17:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silvermoon Hmm I'm somewhat torn on this issue because it brings to the forefront a number of issues, I personally have voiced concern about in my area, or the general lifestyle. Some issues I'm torn between. I don't wish to argue with Master Fire Ma'am however... I can't see where your post was arguing with mine at all. We both said to speak up and follow your gut. Even if it did, feel free to argue. Open discussion is a good thing, as long as it's not flaming. There's always another helpful view. Master Fire

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