RE: Help Please (Full Version)

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mons -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 1:03:31 AM)

greetings
 
i see him as not a dom not a master from what i read he lose contol control of the whole thing he hurt her in ways many doms do not use to use a knife and to hit her face ius something very wrong. he was showing off for you and wow who was she to him a gfirlfriend who is submissive or someone he playswith? i found wriitng that so sad she may had be to frighten to say no and submissive please please watch how you play with
 
take care jane



FirmhandKY -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 1:38:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

As I stated in my first post, they were a focal point for the scene. It would have stopped if they left. The friend is an adult and should be treated like one. The time to step in was initially, when the vibe felt off. If you can't retain the ability to communicate effectively then another fail safe should be in place.
 
Without their intervention she walked away with a hard lesson learned. This is the other side of not being a "door mat". Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself at the detriment of a scene. Being able to communicate is not just about opinions.


1.  How do you know they (Playful and sub) were the "focal point" of the scene?  I got the impression that the sub was the focal point.

2.  What makes you think the "out of control" dom would have stopped after they left?  Perhaps he would have REALLY gotten angry for being snubbed by PlayfulOne leaving ... and taken it out on the now certainly helpless sub on the cross.

3.  It's great to theorize about "another failsafe" should have be in place.  It's nice to theorize about what the sub should have done.  It's nice to theorize about everything cooling off if they had left.  It's nice to theorize about maybe they shouldn't have gone in the first place.

But here is the reality:  They were there, things went screwy, and PlayfulOne had a decision to make right then.  Reality has a way of forcing you to make hard choices, based on incomplete and faulty information.  You do the best you can, with what you have.

I admire what PlayfulOne has done, by posting this topic.  He is attempting to work through the moral, ethical and practical consequences of his actions.  He is preparing for reality next time, rather than crying and moaning about "could'ves, would'ves, should'ves, and might-have-beens".

And that is what my first post tried to assist him in doing.  Giving him part of the framework that I use.

It looks like the thread is dangerously close to degenerating into a "blame the sub" and "walk away and let the lion feast" moral abrogation of self-responsibility. 

Too many people are kinda squirmy about the terms "judgement" and "judgemental".  Morals are so elastic that they seem prepared to sacrifice anything and anyone on the alter of being "non-judgmental".  Anything bad that happens to someone is their own fault because they are  "personally responsible".  ("Hey, he didn't have to get out of bed the morning he was shot  ...he's personally responsible for his own death!")

I think there has to be a balance between the ideal, and reality.  I think that you have to make judgements, and take moral stands.  Now ... where that stand is ... is worth discussing.


FHky



WhipTheHip -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 4:27:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LevelWhat a horrible situation to be in, K. I totally understand what you did (and did not do), and what you're feeling. I think Fire said it well, their baggage is not yours, and she ultimately had the responsibility to speak up. I hope she learned from it, and I do not mean that harshly.


It is funny that people here are quick to say I'm not okay, and bad mouth me any
number of different ways,  Yet, it it is my position that the top has full responsibility
to make sure a scene does not go wrong.  Submissives want to please, that is
their nature.  I would never do anything that scars a submissive, even if she
agreed to it.  To my viewpoint that is not sane.  Moreover, as a top it is my
responsibility to make sure I understand what my partner is willing to accept, and
what she is not willing to accept and what she is willing to consider.  If things
progress gradually enough, with enough discussion, there is little chance for
things to go wrong.  I may even stop during a scene to make sure things are
okay.  I would rather destroy the mood one evening than risk doing something
that might upset my sub.  I would never depend upon a safe word to end a
scene.  Many subs go into subspace, and can't use their safe word.  Subs
often place there emotional, physical, and mental welfare in your hands, 
and place their soul in your hands.  I am not going to violate that trust, I
am going to earn that trust, and never make her feel like she made a mistake.
 
Cheers,
Michael 
 



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 6:05:46 AM)

K, you did what was best in the situation you were in. IMO, you shouldn't feel guilty for other peoples actions. The sub is a grown woman, she should've said something if things went wrong. Hopefully, she's learned a lesson and will speak up if this should happen again. The Dom commited social suicide with this "scene" of his. As for you and your little one, as Julia said, hindsight is 20/20. Don't beat yourself up.

As for those that say you should've done something, it's easy for another to make such a judgement when they are not the ones who were in the middle of it. You did what was best at the time given the conditions.



RedSavageSlave -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 6:56:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Any Dom worth a damn would have had no problem letting a subs friends check on her during a scene as intense as what you describe.


Keeping in mind that I am taking this out of the context of the situation I do have to respond to this one statement separately.

Any dom worth a damn who has built a scene up to this intensity level would be highly upset to have "friends check on her" during the scene whether it is abuse or not... I have NEVER heard of a dom who thanked someone for stepping in and upsetting the balance of the scene because a friend was concerned.

Again, I KNOW I am taking the sentence out of context of the discussion as a whole, but lets not make sweeping statements like this because this particular one needed to be stopped.



Sensualips -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 7:52:43 AM)

quote:

Also as a Dungeon Master Should have stopped the play immediatly upon seeing the cuts and the welts as well as the uncontrolable shaking and other signs.



A DM stops play immediately upon seeing cuts and welts? That is simply ridiculous.  I have been at events where there is a strict "no blood" policy and a bleeding cut would require a scene to pause while that was taken care of.  It is annoying, but you know the rules up front and can adjust. Cuts and welts are a very typical part of a scene for some people.

When I bottom I routinely shake during an intense scene, or immediately afterwards.  That is an indication of the progression of my physical state, but not a sign something is amiss or a scene shouldbe halted by an outsider.



spanklette -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 11:28:40 AM)

No answer to this situation is going to be 100% right. I agree with you.
 
I just have a huge problem with people stopping scenes that they are uncomforatble with. The reality is that most scenes are consensual. We can't, as a group, start interrupting scenes because people didn't plan properly. This creates a situation where poorly planned scenes are rewarded with attention.
 
As flawed as this is, when I am in public I have to believe certain assumptions. The main assumption is that all of the scenes that I am witness to are consensual. If I didn't, I'd be walking around with a first aid kit all night asking, "Are you okay?" and so would everyone else.
 
The OP stated the scene was held off until they arrived. That makes PlayfulOne and his little one the focal point, for me.
 
I think that it is a huge mistake to perpetuate the opinion that someone should have stopped the scene. No one appreciates their space being invaded by concerned outsiders, especially outsiders who are "uncomfortable".

Personally, I have seen scenes progress farther than either participant intended. No one interrupted. No one had anything frothy and red gurgling from their lips. In the end, everyone learned a lesson, a tough one.

On that same note, I have seen a scene stopped due to health concerns. I didn't walk away because it made me uncomfortable, I dialed 911. This is the behavior that was expected of me and rightly so. He needed help and I gladly provided. No one left him convulsing helplessly on the cross.
 
As a submissive, I don't expect anyone to judge when I've gone too far except me. My Daddy does a wonderful job, but it still remains my responsibility. If she's not familiar enough with her own reactions, that doesn't put the onus on the observers.



juliaoceania -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 12:07:33 PM)

I agree with what you stated as far as my discomfort with something should not translate into interupting a scene. A few questions if I may, has anyone heard of accidents caused because a scene was interupted at the wrong time? I think I have read of such things. Also, at a dungeon if your scene is going to be heavier than average, the dungeon master does not know the players well yet, isn't there some sort of protocol of warning the DM about rough play that may cause others a lot of concern?

Another question would be, at a private party does the host take on the role of DM, and in a way does having that sort of responsibilty keep one from scening at their own party? In otherwords, how can you oversee others safely if you are taking part as a participant... and in this case might it not be wise to have a second responsible person at a party that can watch things while the host plays? Or am I taking things too seriously with these thoughts?



Gemslittlebear -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 2:28:57 PM)

ok let me rephrase this, there is welts and then there is going overboard, there is a difference between shaking out of fear and shaking out of joy. Most can tell the difference the sub, slave The parties involved and the Parties there watching.



spanklette -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 3:06:27 PM)

In my experience, I haven't seen many scenes interrupted...but I could imagine that interrupting at the wrong time could be detrimental to all involved.
 
The private parties I've been to have all included a "moderator" rather than a DM. They functioned quite the same way, except that many people took the role of moderator over the course of the evening. It's always worked well. Of course, these private parties only include a select trusted few.
 
Having DM's doesn't stop bad things from happening. People shouldn't depend on someone else to protect them. That isn't to say that DM's aren't necessary.
 
BTW, safety is not something to be taken lightly. It's always important whether in public or private to know where to turn in the case of an emergency. I don't mean to belittle the presence of monitors, at all. My point is that they can't be held responsible for poor decision making.

In the end, do what makes everyone feel as comfortable and as safe as possible. I've been to parties with no monitors and I've been to parties with more monitors than players. Bottom line, I didn't play unless I felt comfortable with a Top and that has nothing to do with the presence of a DM.
 
PS. Only the nice parts were in response to Julia.[:D] 




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 3:37:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemslittlebear
ok let me rephrase this, there is welts and then there is going overboard, there is a difference between shaking out of fear and shaking out of joy. Most can tell the difference the sub, slave The parties involved and the Parties there watching.

Shaking in fear is a bad thing?  Wow, I've had that wrong for years....



jamesthehumanrug -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 3:37:41 PM)

gems bear
NOPE; YOU KNOW ;YOU NEVER CAN TELL;[:@]

no; you can't tell what, another is feeling ;ever ;and there is no universal interpretation of expressions ;cross-culturally; except for one expression; and any actor who knows ;can imitate it ;and thats the straight across tite smile of teeth showing; and thats fear;
the other is a mix up of sex and pain expressions ;THE BMR (BASIL METABOLISM RATE) IS THE SAME;where ones breathing is increased ;and squinting eyes; and moans ;you cant tell if it is really sex or pain the person is feeling ,but ,you know its one or the other; and altho you cant tell sometimes; between a crazy person and an actor, cause ....
all crazies can be considered natural good-good actors ;this too can be imitated;
so -best bet is to be normal and say
"i cant read your mind";no one can read anyones' mind;(its impossible) and,"therefore:
;
you have to tell me" and, rely on that.....
the person ,just has ,to SAY......
(THAT'S SCIENCE.[8|])
(MMMM'[:o] .... i wonder what brilliant-slave did that song?.... :,'SHE  BLINDED ME WITH SCIENCE' ;....,
and ,got totally ripped![&o])



MistressTexas -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 4:02:07 PM)

Ahhhh Dammit, wheres MisPandora when I need her? Going by what the OP stated, It sounds like she was going into shock. In that case, yes I would have at least questioned her/the "dom" and maybe even checked her vitals. Stopping the scene would have depended on the answers to the questions. Why? because if her vitals/physical state indicate shock as opposed to subspace, it indicates to me that her body is starting to shut down and pull away from the pain. This in turn tells me that if she was unable to safeword before, she sure as hell won't be able to now that the pain receptors are taking a nap.

Yes folks, this is a bad thing.

To the OP: You did what you felt was right at the time. I agree with those who said trust your gut, and commend you for NOT walking away from such an intense scene. I have no doubt that it must have been brutal to watch. You provided solid aftercare, and gave her caring support when she needed it most. I believe you did what you could for her, and hope that you, and he have all learned a lesson for the future.



Emperor1956 -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 10:02:20 PM)

juliaoceania had some questions.  I have some answers (YMMV):

quote:

  A few questions if I may, has anyone heard of accidents caused because a scene was interupted at the wrong time? I think I have read of such things.


Well I've never seen an "accident", but I've seen detrimental effects on the players when their scene was interrupted by some event or intervention.  For instance, I have seen a submissive need A LOT of calming and "bringing down" when his Mistress was forced to suddenly stop a very heavy CBT/Suspension scene because of Her family emergency.  I knew these folk, and while he was very much a drama queen, I'm not sure his hour of post-truncated scene chills, crying, shaking, etc. were just drama.  Is that what you were thinking about?

quote:

  Also, at a dungeon if your scene is going to be heavier than average, the dungeon master does not know the players well yet, isn't there some sort of protocol of warning the DM about rough play that may cause others a lot of concern?


Absolutely.  When I've DM'd, if a scene was getting very heavy, I would check with the other DMs (by the way, here I mean it as "dungeon MONITOR", a much more accurate term  than "Master") and I'd find out if anyone knew the players.  If they checked out, fine.  If not, I might look for an opening (if the Top was changing implements, for instance) and make a quick, quiet inquiry.  Experienced players would often come to the DMs and say "we are gonna do...[fill in your kinkiest thought here].  Wanted you to know."  For instance, I have DM'd with scenes with a lot of blood, and usually, the Top will tell Me in advance what is gonna happen.

quote:

  Another question would be, at a private party does the host take on the role of DM, and in a way does having that sort of responsibilty keep one from scening at their own party? In otherwords, how can you oversee others safely if you are taking part as a participant... and in this case might it not be wise to have a second responsible person at a party that can watch things while the host plays?


The problem, julia, is that it IS a private home.  There are no protocols, no rules -- on a given Saturday night, the play party up the street might be SSC, moderated, and in all ways "appropriate" under common scene protocol, and the play party down the street might be a drunken, violent brawl with nonconsensual acts left and right.  (NO, I'm not inviting any of you to make a choice which one you want to attend!)  I would love to say "yes, when the host intends on playing there is a DM available" but I bet it ain't so.

Two other thoughts in this vein:  When I go to someone's home, I am first and foremost a guest and I will not be looking to bring a fight -- over politics, religion, garden varieties, or D/s behavior.  If I am going to play then I will probably hang back a bit and absorb the local culture, see if I'm comfortable exposing My girl and My self to this crowd, and I probably would not, first time, play as hard as I might in a known venue.  I would hope most people have this view.

Second, the really serious dungeon accidents I've seen took place in well monitored professional or semipro/public dungeons.  They were NOT the result of play that went too long.  They were the result of either inexperienced people thinking "see one, do one" and getting on a piece of equipment and not knowing what they were doing or of medical issues that the Top or bottom had not adequately disclosed or allowed their partner to prepare for.

E.



juliaoceania -> RE: Help Please (9/26/2006 10:15:51 PM)

My Daddy and I talked about throwing playparties in the future if we ever find enough people in the community to create a nice mix of neat people. I will definitely think about these issues before doing these things. I wonder about lawsuits at a private party, how one can protect themselves, does your home owners insurance cover this?....smiles

Yes, lots of food for thought, such as how do we want to approach hosting. I will definitely toss this by Daddy




MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Help Please (9/27/2006 6:37:33 AM)

All play-parties I've been to have you sign a disclaimer at the door and the host(ess) views your ID to verify your age and that you are who you say you are. I'm not saying that this exonerates them in the eyes of the law but this is what I've seen done.



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