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RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 6:38:31 PM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		For me, the answer could be "yes and no" to almost each and every statement made on this thread.  Why? Because every one has expressed "a different love, a different loving, and a different "way" to love.  For some it was more emotional and fluid, and for others it was deep and sublime, and then there were those statements that fell some where in between.  Diversity is beautiful, each different expression was unique and interesting.   i have enjoyed reading all of you thus far, thank you. *smile

(in reply to new2encounter)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 6:41:11 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: new2encounter
Are you all saying that we can not have a productive M/s relationship becuase of our complete love for one another?


Absolutuely not.  Contrary to the innuendo, I am not attributing relationship failure to 'loving too much.'  I love my girl, fiercely, and am deeply 'in love' with her.  For us, M/s illustrates 'how' we love each other.  The harsher I am with her, the softer she becomes, and it satisfies us both.

Like you, our relationship started vanilla.  She had never been exposed to the lifestyle, and I didn't want to base our relationship on M/s.  Over time, after we felt comfortable and secure enough, we gradually added Ds elements, until we arrived at the TPE relationship we have today. 


_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to new2encounter)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 6:48:17 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

Why would one equate submitting of the heart, as being vanilla, and why does it have to be either heart felt love or the other?  Why can't there be both love and the D/s structure?  i know many who have both.  Maybe i am missing something here...kind of dense today anyway from no sleep and being overworked. *grin
 
Could not Mastery be the blanket of the heart connection, like they are sort of layered beneath one another, with the over all being D/s first, than love beneath it. Isn't that what some folks refer to as having it all, in a well rounded relationship?  Just trying to understand and be clear.


if you desire to have a power structure,it's a good idea for the slave to be hopelessly in love with you. It gives you emotional leverage over her.

On the dominant side, you have to avoid being leveraged-so you have to maintain a degree of emotional self control that lets you use YOUR leverage-rather than losing your grip on it.
Not to be impudent..But do you not think that counting on leverage as a way to control a sub/slave is rather a poor way to Dominate said sub/slave?Loving IMO does not change who you are, wether it be Dominant or submissive.You are who you are leverage or no...Loving or no......Tempting

(in reply to Frank01)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:13:42 PM   
thisishis


Posts: 278
Joined: 5/11/2006
From: Southeastern MA
Status: offline
quote:

"A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit to His slave. A slave can only submit if she can master her Master's heart."
 
That's not so, in speaking of the relationship between Master and myself*.
 
A Master can love and be in love with their slave and express that love without giving in to the influence of that love.
A Master can love and be in love with a slave without having to compromise the basic dynamics of their M/s relationship.
A Master can love their slave and be in love with their slave while doing whatever it is they enjoy doing (and in some cases, what they do NOT enjoy ... as in punishments etc)with/to their slave, while knowing that their slave may not share their pleasure ... without the need to hold back from expressing that love.
 
As a slave i do not use the term nor think in terms of 'submitting'. To do so, for me, infers that i have some amount of thought of denying my Master's command. i'm a slave. i obey. Period. To say that i should master my Master's heart is crazy, to me. To fathom the possibility is, to me, equal to suggesting that i should manipulate my Master's heart to a likening of a puppet on a string .... to use Him to do my bidding, serve my pleaure, my desire etc ect. If He were to suddenly start doing all of that .... i'd have to wonder who the Master is and who the slave is in this relationship. i'd wonder why He is suddenly flipflopping our roles and doing my job/filling my shoes/kneeeling in what was agreed to be my place in this relationship during initial negotiation stages prior to being placed in His collar.
 
In this relationship, it's NOT all about me. It IS all about Him. If anyone will play the puppet, i implore ... and insist that it be me. THAT is what He and i signed up for.
 
It took me a while to understand that it is possible for the love to balance out while not taking away from His ability to sate His selfish desires. There is no need for Him to submit anything to me and i sure as hell don't want and don't need Him to .... the opposite would be true in this relationship. He can love me and be in love with me and still demand everything and anything of me, with a **minimal list of limitations.  His ability to do so is what keeps me happy, sated, grounded, and at peace and greatful to be His slave.
 
There have been many times that i have been commanded to do something which i do not enjoy and/or that i absolutely detest being expected to do for my Master. There have been instances during those times where the love was not staring me right in the face, rather something else  was ... of those times, there have been instances, when in complying with some of His more ***extreme expectations, that i have seen the love in His eyes. His love does not submit to anything.
 
His place as Master within this TPE relationship does not submit to my place within it as His slave.


YMMV aka Disclaimers:
*which is what i refer to from any example offered with this post. i do understand that there are others, who in their own M/s relationship, can say that it is so, for them).
**for the naysayers: barring death, certain acts of disfigurement and/or maming, and some unlawful acts
***according to our own definition of what is and is not defined as such .... YMMV


< Message edited by thisishis -- 9/26/2006 7:21:41 PM >

_____________________________

Sincerely, his

How I'm kept busy these days: http://modelmayhem.com/member.php?id=368120




(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:21:13 PM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

Why would one equate submitting of the heart, as being vanilla, and why does it have to be either heart felt love or the other?  Why can't there be both love and the D/s structure?  i know many who have both.  Maybe i am missing something here...kind of dense today anyway from no sleep and being overworked. *grin
 
Could not Mastery be the blanket of the heart connection, like they are sort of layered beneath one another, with the over all being D/s first, than love beneath it. Isn't that what some folks refer to as having it all, in a well rounded relationship?  Just trying to understand and be clear.


if you desire to have a power structure,it's a good idea for the slave to be hopelessly in love with you. It gives you emotional leverage over her.

On the dominant side, you have to avoid being leveraged-so you have to maintain a degree of emotional self control that lets you use YOUR leverage-rather than losing your grip on it.
Not to be impudent..But do you not think that counting on leverage as a way to control a sub/slave is rather a poor way to Dominate said sub/slave?Loving IMO does not change who you are, wether it be Dominant or submissive.You are who you are leverage or no...Loving or no......Tempting


Define leverage.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:25:01 PM   
gretchenS


Posts: 237
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

 I do not see these things as mutually exclusive. I don't see why you can't both give your heart AND be structured and strict. Parents do it all the time.


TNstepsout,

This is how our relationship actually works. This is exactelly what he's statement about us says. What he's really addressing to here is when a dominant is not capable of being strong with his submissive because he has fell for her and he's affraid that the dynamic might hurt her mentally or other ways. For example, I friend of mine introduced his 'nilla girl to the D/s dynamic, they were absolutey in love with each other and quite happy with the dynamic at first, and in the passing years he started feeling like he was hurting her by pushing her limits (she had lots of them) and being as dominant as he is, so he started looking for other submissives to play with, to what she agreeded. After a couple of months she said to him that she wanted to be 'nilla again, because she felt that the dynamic beetwen them was dead. For the sake of not loosing her, he agreeded. He never played again or do any BDSM or D/s related activities and he tryed to make her feel loved without the lifestyle aspects. Two months later, she dumped him. He was totally heartbroken, still in loved with her and craving to comeback. The truth is, he should have being more careful about her needs, which where indeed pushing her limits.

Some people can't have a D/s relationship with the love aspects involved. I SAID SOME!.

< Message edited by gretchenS -- 9/26/2006 7:27:28 PM >

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:27:59 PM   
thisishis


Posts: 278
Joined: 5/11/2006
From: Southeastern MA
Status: offline 		More food for thought without applying anything reference to the relationship of my Master and i:
There are many out there in Master/slave and D/s relationships who serve without love, without sex, without expectations or the presense of emotional ties etc ... who are in those relationships with nothing more than the intent to each receive satisfaction from being served and in serving.

< Message edited by thisishis -- 9/26/2006 7:28:57 PM >

_____________________________

Sincerely, his

How I'm kept busy these days: http://modelmayhem.com/member.php?id=368120




(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:28:52 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I think he's trying to say something like this:

It doesn't matter how much we love eachother- if I'm not the master, and she's not the slave, then the relationship won't exist.  M/s is not the icing on the relationship, it is the cake itself.

That doesn't mean love isn't a part of, in fact a very deep and integral part of, the relationship as a whole.  Simply that love is not the basis of the relationship.

Which is fine and dandy- but not what works for everyone.  M/s can be founded in love as much as it is founded in authority.  It just depends on the people involved.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to gretchenS)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:32:04 PM   
thisishis


Posts: 278
Joined: 5/11/2006
From: Southeastern MA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think he's trying to say something like this:

It doesn't matter how much we love eachother- if I'm not the master, and she's not the slave, then the relationship won't exist.  M/s is not the icing on the relationship, it is the cake itself.
Thank you. That sums up the recipe for this relationship quite accurately.
Couldn't have said it better .....

_____________________________

Sincerely, his

How I'm kept busy these days: http://modelmayhem.com/member.php?id=368120




(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:33:29 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Are we talking extremes here?  I know Master loves me but I do not consider him to be giving me his heart.  He gives me many things, but submitting something to me?  I don't think so.

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:44:29 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		thisishis - Thanks, you got it.

LA, pretty close - except that I would say love is the flour, M/s is the sugar.  Without one or the other, you don't have a cake - you have a pile of... well, god only knows.

Both aspects, the Ms and the Love, make us who we are.  Neither are we the other extreme - we don't get out of bed and immediately put on our leather outfits (actually, we don't even have leather outfits... hmm....)  She doesn't call me anything special like Sir, Master , Daddy in the course of the day.  We don't actually invest any large amount of time or effort in 'becoming' Ms - rather it's the closest thing we can use to describe how we interact.  We both understand what Ms means to us, and on what we feel is important. 

Anyway, I don't usually go to much length writing about how I feel, mostly because I don't feel anything.  ERM because I don't know how to address all of the voices in my head.  That is..  to say, I don't spend a lot sharing why I do what I do or feel how I feel to anyone besides gretchen and our cats.  We don't live in castle-realm, we're quite content right here.


_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 7:55:04 PM   
thisishis


Posts: 278
Joined: 5/11/2006
From: Southeastern MA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare

love is the flour, M/s is the sugar.  Without one or the other, you don't have a cake - you have a pile of... well, god only knows.

diatetic cake
 
Anyone realize how expensive that Splender crap is ??!!? Unreal. It's too expensive to live healthy these days.

_____________________________

Sincerely, his

How I'm kept busy these days: http://modelmayhem.com/member.php?id=368120




(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 8:58:40 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

Why would one equate submitting of the heart, as being vanilla, and why does it have to be either heart felt love or the other?  Why can't there be both love and the D/s structure?  i know many who have both.  Maybe i am missing something here...kind of dense today anyway from no sleep and being overworked. *grin
 
Could not Mastery be the blanket of the heart connection, like they are sort of layered beneath one another, with the over all being D/s first, than love beneath it. Isn't that what some folks refer to as having it all, in a well rounded relationship?  Just trying to understand and be clear.


if you desire to have a power structure,it's a good idea for the slave to be hopelessly in love with you. It gives you emotional leverage over her.

On the dominant side, you have to avoid being leveraged-so you have to maintain a degree of emotional self control that lets you use YOUR leverage-rather than losing your grip on it.
Not to be impudent..But do you not think that counting on leverage as a way to control a sub/slave is rather a poor way to Dominate said sub/slave?Loving IMO does not change who you are, wether it be Dominant or submissive.You are who you are leverage or no...Loving or no......Tempting


Define leverage.
An act of positional advantage...Tempting

(in reply to Frank01)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 9:22:47 PM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank01

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

Why would one equate submitting of the heart, as being vanilla, and why does it have to be either heart felt love or the other?  Why can't there be both love and the D/s structure?  i know many who have both.  Maybe i am missing something here...kind of dense today anyway from no sleep and being overworked. *grin
 
Could not Mastery be the blanket of the heart connection, like they are sort of layered beneath one another, with the over all being D/s first, than love beneath it. Isn't that what some folks refer to as having it all, in a well rounded relationship?  Just trying to understand and be clear.


if you desire to have a power structure,it's a good idea for the slave to be hopelessly in love with you. It gives you emotional leverage over her.

On the dominant side, you have to avoid being leveraged-so you have to maintain a degree of emotional self control that lets you use YOUR leverage-rather than losing your grip on it.
Not to be impudent..But do you not think that counting on leverage as a way to control a sub/slave is rather a poor way to Dominate said sub/slave?Loving IMO does not change who you are, wether it be Dominant or submissive.You are who you are leverage or no...Loving or no......Tempting


Define leverage.
An act of positional advantage...Tempting


And why is it wrong to use power as a tool?

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/26/2006 10:43:28 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:MASTERRocker
Again; open communication, respect and trust labels are nothing... the heart is everything. A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit to His slave. A slave can only submit if she can master her Master's heart."



Nay.

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/27/2006 5:16:00 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		Could someone explain to me why if my viewpoint is different from yours then I must be insecure??

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/27/2006 5:26:18 AM   
OhReallyNow


Posts: 249
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		this slave has submitted completly to Master
Master has take responsibility for this property as his own
 
yet, neither of us claim to 'love' each other. This slave respects Master, cares for him deeply, and is devoted to his happiness; yet there is no 'romantic' love between us. This slave is simply property, nothing more, nothing less.

_____________________________

~ When anger rises, think of the consequences
CONFUCIUS ~

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/27/2006 5:38:14 AM   
SassySue


Posts: 54
Joined: 2/12/2006
Status: offline 		 I believe that we as humans, are energy... unique energy, I believe that the D/s relationship is a natural extension of that energy.  To say that love doesn't / shouldn't enter into it is to muddy the waters.  Love creates it's own energy between two people, it can enhance as well as detract from a D/s relationship depending on the people involved. For me D/s is a spiritual path.  I think that the energy created within a D/s relationship is returned to the world .. call that god, goddess, whatever...when two unique energies form one..the sum is greater than the total of it's parts.. every time.  For me, love makes that energy expand exponentially.  What an incredible gift to give.

(in reply to Frank01)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/27/2006 5:43:58 AM   
RedSavageSlave


Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thisishis

quote:

"A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit to His slave. A slave can only submit if she can master her Master's heart."
 
His place as Master within this TPE relationship does not submit to my place within it as His slave.


YMMV aka Disclaimers:
*which is what i refer to from any example offered with this post. i do understand that there are others, who in their own M/s relationship, can say that it is so, for them).
**for the naysayers: barring death, certain acts of disfigurement and/or maming, and some unlawful acts
***according to our own definition of what is and is not defined as such .... YMMV



amen!

(in reply to thisishis)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: A Master is only a Master if His heart can submit..... - 9/27/2006 5:44:02 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Two months later, she dumped him. He was totally heartbroken, still in loved with her and craving to comeback. The truth is, he should have being more careful about her needs, which where indeed pushing her limits.

Some people can't have a D/s relationship with the love aspects involved. I SAID SOME!.


I know there are some couples that have had this problem. I guess my position is that if two people really and truly love and are devoted to one another, they should stick around and work things out instead of cutting and running. What it sounds like happened here is that he was MORE in love with her than she was with him. Another poster used the term "leverage". It sounds like she had more leverage because he wanted her more than she wanted him. So he became ineffective as the Dom.
But this has little to do with with dynamic and nothing to do with love. It's just a problem that occurs in some relationships, D/s or otherwise.

Really, I couldn't imagine being in a relationship with anyone who couldn't or wouldn't be willing to have an equal amount of emotional vulnerability. I couldn't respect him or her. But, that's just me.

(in reply to gretchenS)
Profile   Post #: 60
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