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RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 10:14:18 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta
for a Dom/me to own a slave completely, is it a fair expectation that the slave love him/her if they are able to?

I think expectations of love are always a recipe for disaster.

quote:

Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?
If they want to and it works for them. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to yaqeta)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 10:23:36 AM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta
for a Dom/me to own a slave completely, is it a fair expectation that the slave love him/her if they are able to?

I think expectations of love are always a recipe for disaster.

quote:

Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?
If they want to and it works for them. 


Expectations of emotional content come across as rather insecure to me. Better to see if it will be given, rather than using it as blackmail.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 10:40:35 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Soooo...now ALL Ds and Ms relationships are het relationships with Male Dominants and female submissives? *scratches head*

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
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(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 10:50:52 AM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

You are assuming that all Ds and Ms relationships are based on sexual orientations, meaning a pair of het people, a pair of gay people or a pair of lesbian people and so are assuming romantic love is ALWAYS an option. Romantic love and devotional love are different things. Romantic love is simply not possible in a relationship between people of opposing sexual orientations. Thus, requiring romantic love is simply not logical nor possible. Requiring devotional love certainly is and I'd say that, yes, devotional love is to be expected.

Master Fire



There is at least, a devotion to a person, an ideal, or a dynamic. I have seen many M/s things that seemed to be more about a mutual facillitation of one or all of these needs.

They were more objective than "girlfriend/boyfriend".

And many really don't care if there is a so called "complete" ownership, so long as the deal is being honored-they could care less.

< Message edited by Frank01 -- 9/29/2006 10:52:42 AM >

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 11:14:51 AM   
Argentopal


Posts: 379
Joined: 12/12/2005
From: Central Texas / Hill Country
Status: offline 		First and foremost, imho, it really does depend on the people involved, their desires, goals, and needs in the relationship.  My Master/Daddy and I will celebrate our 25 wedding anniversary next month and have been 24/7 Ds/Ms for  almost 10years now and moved to Daddy/babygirl one year ago.  Do I love Him more than imaginable? yes.  Does He love me? yes.  But even for us it is the trust that has enabled us to grow and evolve into something amazing( you would think I was silly and making up fairey tales if I wrote how I feel about Him). 

However, I just signed a new contract with a boy, for me, and I do not love him nor does he love me and we have discussed it and neither of us expects to love each other.  We expect to respect each other and to trust each other, we expect that respect and trust to grow and I understand that certain emotions will grow as we get to know each other better and better and as we share things.  But I do not expect or even hope that either of us will "love" the other any more that good friends love each other.  I see that as a good thing in our case.

MsOpal aka Daddy Argent's babygirl

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 11:57:07 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta

Yes, another spin-off *ducks to avoid flying shoe*

I know this general topic has been discussed to death, but I have a very specific question: for a Dom/me to own a slave completely, is it a fair expectation that the slave love him/her if they are able to?

I'm trying to be really clear here - I'm not asking about whether anyone in particular would/would not have an M/s relationship if they were/were not in love.  Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?


People strive for many things.  i don't believe that love is something i should have to strive for within an M/s dynamic, or in any relationship for that matter.  Speaking only for myself, love simply happens in the heart.  When love does happen, i have two choices.  i can decide to nurture and foster that love so it will grow, OR, i can decide to cut it off and not allow it to grow. 
 
i can decide to allow myself to be loved and love back, or i can decide to be selfish with my love, enjoy receiving and even taking the love of another, but not allow myself to love back.  For me, the second option reaks of selfishness.  Not only for the other person, but for myself as well, for if i choose not to love, i also deny myself of that experience.  You can go from there as to what may begin to happen when one loves and the other does not, or will not allow themselves to return love, within the context of a relationship.
 
i believe that the principle of unconditional love is based upon acceptance, tolerance and understanding of another person.  Unconditional love for myself, means that i love a person for all they are, and for all they are not.  It has little to do with fleeting emotions of passion, lust, or those that give a temporary high, performance base, or conditions.  It has everything to do with it being a healthy balanced relationship, or one that is toxic.  If healthy, i stay and allow myself to love and be loved.  If toxic, i leave, and perhaps may even still love that person from a distance, it depends on the chemistry and energy i share with another. 
 
If i have issues of insecurity, undealt with fears, emotional baggage and triggers, etc, then love may be seen as a risk factor.  If i am a mentally stable and fairly confident individual, i will not be threatened by allowing myself to freely love and be loved back.  Just my perspective.

(in reply to yaqeta)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 1:31:08 PM   
cherishableslave


Posts: 22
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		i so agree with this statement, i have to love my Master/Daddy to be his slave period. It's that simple no love no submission and there is love alot of it and it is growing everyday.


                                                               Sincerely Ryboom's Lil girl

(in reply to Shalyn)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 3:08:32 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

It's that simple no love no submission


To me it's not that simple.  Before you were in love, how was your submission?  Did you not submit?  Was it lesser?  How did your dom feel about having lesser submission?  I can submit without being in love.  I can do a lot of things without love.  It may be because I no longer hold that expectation that it *must* be love or it's not worthwhile.  But I am curious when people say they can't submit or be slaves without love.  Certainly they all don't fall in love at the first moment, although I think many have probably already showed some elements of submission in their behavior.


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to cherishableslave)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 3:12:41 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta

I'm trying to be really clear here - I'm not asking about whether anyone in particular would/would not have an M/s relationship if they were/were not in love.  Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?


For me all that matters for a slave is that they Obey my will.  Now what provides the motivation to demonstrations of obedience is another question all together.  For some "Love" is a important aspect to provide this motivation for others not so much.  I myself enjoy and desire the emotions that love between two and it has an important part in my M/s relationships.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to yaqeta)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 3:19:05 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

CHERISHABLE SLAVE:

It's that simple no love no submission



quote:

KATYLIED:To me it's not that simple. Before you were in love, how was your submission? Did you not submit? Was it lesser? How did your dom feel about having lesser submission? I can submit without being in love. I can do a lot of things without love. It may be because I no longer hold that expectation that it *must* be love or it's not worthwhile. But I am curious when people say they can't submit or be slaves without love. Certainly they all don't fall in love at the first moment, although I think many have probably already showed some elements of submission in their behavior.




I began to submit, first in small ways, then in more profound, to my Daddy before we even met in person. Did I love him? No. I liked what I knew of him quite a bit. I was infatuated with him. I felt compelled to submit to him (not an easy thing to pull off, mind you). I trusted him with the degree of submission I gave him, or rather, the degree he took (he pretty much did have me at "hello" whether I realized or not), and I saw the potential for something deep, like love, to develop.
If I had waited until it "was love", I don't know if we would have made it to love. Learning one anothers' rhythms within the D/s dynamic, for me, is part of getting to know one another. The only way to do that is to step out and submit.

I don't think submission should be put off until "it's love". It's sort of like saying "I will dance with you, but you can't dip me or twirl me until you commit to loving me."

I think you can learn and grow quite a bit from submitting to someone without love and I think you can learn and grow a lot from submitting to someone on your way to love, whether or not you make it there.

< Message edited by justheather -- 9/29/2006 3:22:32 PM >

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 4:51:46 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		I think love can interfere with owning a slave "completely". It introduces emotions that can make people do crazy things, and that irrational behavior reduces discipline. Furthermore, it links the motive for service to the emotion instead of service simply or the sake of dominant's desire.

I also think love can interfere with a dominant's behavior too. It isn't unusual to hear tales of unhappy masochists whose doms don't beat the shit out of them any more after they get all lovey dovey. I know I wouldn't challenge my girl so much if love was involved for fear she could stop loving me for being so rough on her.

Don't get me wrong, love is great to have in relationships, but I also think it impacts power dynamics and that impact isn't always a good thing.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 9/29/2006 4:58:19 PM >

(in reply to yaqeta)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 5:04:29 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

I also think love can interfere with a dominant's behavior too. It isn't unusual to hear tales of unhappy masochists whose dom doesn't beat the shit out of them any more after they get all lovey dovey. I know I wouldn't challenge my girl so much if love was involved for fear she could stop loving me for being so rough on her.


It could be said that power-exchange only relationships may be artificially stinted and interfere with a couple's experiencing a whole array of really awesome things.
The question is, what do you want?

As far as these tales of masochists who don't get beaten any more...the only times Ive heard such stories, the purported reason has been that the dom doesnt feel like he needs to beat her anymore to keep her happy so she'll stay around. That sounds more to me like laziness and complacency than the byproduct of love.
And I would like to be the first to offer up my testimony that the speaking of the L-word has not had a negative impact on the frequency, intensity or duration of the beatings at my Daddy's house. Although, sometimes life circumstances dictate that the dial on the kink-o-meter gets turned down.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 5:14:10 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta

I know this general topic has been discussed to death, but I have a very specific question: for a Dom/me to own a slave completely, is it a fair expectation that the slave love him/her if they are able to?
Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?


I have always thought that in order to own my pets completely, they had to be as emotionally bonded to me as tey were mentally. If that meant falling in love with me, loving me as a close and dear friend, or if it meant simply being dependant, it was a matter of how they handled the relationship and their own emotions. At least in my case, unless that deep emotional bond is there, I lose interest very quickly.

I know that loving my boy has not changed the dynamic of our relatonship in the slightest.  I do not change how we interact becasue I am worried he wont love me anymore, if he started loving me before, acting the SAME WAY isnt going to stop that. And yes, he is a little worried that he wont impress me and I will love him less.. but we are getting around that.

I do hope that somewhat answers the questions.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to yaqeta)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 5:16:25 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

As far as these tales of masochists who don't get beaten any more...the only times Ive heard such stories, the purported reason has been that the dom doesnt feel like he needs to beat her anymore to keep her happy so she'll stay around. That sounds more to me like laziness and complacency than the byproduct of love
I agree completely with this.  There is no way I'm going to do less to please my lover after I've fallen in love with him.   In fact the reason I will tend to avoid someone who's kink doesn't match mine is because I don't want to drift away from doing what I/we enjoy after conquering his attention.

As for being who I am, that only becomes more evident with time and comfort, not less.  For me time and love enhance the experience, especially if we've used the time to communicate our complementary desires and needs.  M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 5:38:53 PM   
Hotwife


Posts: 4
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline 		If they are truly giving everything of themselves, how could they NOT fall in love with Master?

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 7:26:58 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

As far as these tales of masochists who don't get beaten any more...the only times Ive heard such stories, the purported reason has been that the dom doesnt feel like he needs to beat her anymore to keep her happy so she'll stay around. That sounds more to me like laziness and complacency than the byproduct of love.

It seems that you just haven't heard about the time when the "L" word was the cause of diminished beatings and changes in the dynamic; I have heard about them and that is exactly why I mentioned it. Of course laziness and complacency like you mention crops up in a lot of relationships; no doubt that is another cause of it.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 7:28:28 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		I knew I was out of the masochist loop.
Darn it.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 7:44:24 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Soooo...now ALL Ds and Ms relationships are het relationships with Male Dominants and female submissives? *scratches head*

Master Fire



I think that it is common for people to voice these things from their experience. I often speak of het D/s relationships with male dom/female sub without even thinking about it. It is not that I am never mindful that others live a different reality than my own, nor is it that I feel that any other gender/orientation is inferior to my own, I just speak from my own experience and therefore my voice is that of femsub/maledom

I never mean offense if you catch that in my post

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 7:57:20 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yaqeta

Another way to put my question is, if a slave is to give themselves completely to a Dom/me, should they also strive to "give their heart" by loving their owner?


no they should not strive to do so but it will happen anyway

(in reply to yaqeta)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Ownership and love - 9/29/2006 8:50:38 PM   
charismagirrl


Posts: 297
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		Similar to justheather, before i met my Daddy/Master in person i was already submissive to him...instantly i was...without love....That was a different thing than how  much i have surrendered now...i was able to act submissive, genuinely but i hadn't surrendered to him.

At that point i would've (and did) still hung on tooth and nail and put my size 7.5 shoe down to say "i'm not gonna do this or tht " if it was against my limits....i found with love and surrender  those limits have changed to his limits for me.

i know others can do it without love, prefer it without love and if it aint broke for you-don't fix it ...

All said, my Daddy/Master owns me so doesn't he own my heart too? And the emotion that comes from there? Doesn't he own my mind? And the way those emotions manifest themselves into feelings?....he loves me soo very deeply and i love him desperately...the more my love grows for him...the more my trust grows...the more i am able to surrender to him. How could i deny him that/those part/s of me?

Personally,  i tried to submit a couple of times to men i didn't love or like (in that romantic way) and i was doing the robotic thing and couldn't let go or do as they wished because my heart wasn't in it.



_____________________________

For today i won't say but...
For today i wont say just...
For today i will simply obey....
For today i will trust that You are right...
For always i will be your imperfect slave

http://www.mycollarspace.com

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 40
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