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Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 4:17:24 AM

NorthernGent

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Unimagineable 10 years ago but you heard it here first.

With the Labour Party about to eat itself in a battle of New Labour and Real Labour elements and the Conservative Party offering nothing more than the usual tough on law and order, tough on slogans, tough on the causes of slogans etc we are in for an emergence of the Liberal Democrat Party.

Now, what do they have to offer. Well, they look harmless enough and if you ever watch Question Time they always seem less aggressive than Labour or Conservative speakers. They have a genuine environmental programme unlike Labour and the Conservatives (with the exeption of Cameron who thinks getting his photo taken in Greenland is an environmental policy, strange man). They make sense on many human rights and social policy issues.

However, underneath the harmless exterior lurks a beast!

They are unconditonally committed to free-market economics. The problem here is that in such a world how does a Liberal Government keep a check on business interests and thus adhere to the social policy they put forward? It doesn't add up.

However, what I will say is this, a few years ago I could never have imagined voting for any of the three parties other than Labour because of the core principles under-pinning each political party. But, as Labour are no longer the political party I bought into a long time ago, I'm prepared to have a look at Lib Dem policy documents to understand how they propose to work this miracle of feeding the five thousand (was it 5,000, maybe 5 million) with half a fish and a slice of bread. The point is, if someone as staunch as myself is prepared to consider the Lib Dems then they could be in for a right old time.

In terms of the Conservatives, I would rather hack indiscriminately at my knackers with a scythe than vote for that lot.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 4:56:27 AM

meatcleaver

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Power brings with it reality checks and the LibDems would have to adjust their policies should they gain power but they are not in the pockets of big business yet because they don't have big business backers but I'm wondering how uch they will compromise should a realistic chance of power attracts big business. Their European policy should aid them in controling big business if they can make alliances in Europe with the right parties because Europe is the key to controling big business or not. At the moment the EU is siding with big business but that can change if there is enough EU governments from the larger countries with the will to check big business. They would have a ready allie with France but would the Libdems comprise Atlanticism for it? When it comes to the crunch, British governments always choose America.

At the moment I can't think of a LibDem that gives out the aura of authority to be a good government but I can't say Labour has either but they have been the government for the last nine years. I'd give them a chance because of the lack of alternative given by the other two parties but I'm not full of confidence. The real problem with British politics is the political and election system and would they tamper with that once it has delievered them into power?

(in reply to NorthernGent)

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 5:19:18 AM

NorthernGent

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In terms of British Governments choosing the US, what it comes down to is this - historically, we have never had anything like the same level of Government intervention in the economy as the Europeans and this is why British Governments lean towards the US i.e. because at heart we share adherence to free-market economics.

In terms of the Lib Dems I can't believe that a political party underpinned by free-market economics could set up shop with the current European form of economic Government (although, gradually, Germany is lurching towards the Anglo-Saxon model of Capitalism forced upon them by globalisation i.e. they're undergoing labour market reforms and looking at the pension system which is almost unbearable to the extent they're proposing to give both partners something like full pay for 7 months off work to look after new born children).

Because of the above, there is one area you hit the nail on the head and that is if we want a form of Government that can act as a check to business interests then it is not going to happen with a British Government and the EU is a better bet simply because, at heart and historically, contintental Europeans buy into the notion of social provision far more than we do.

In terms of Lib Dem prospects, they certainly don't have the profile but then neither do the Conservatives anymore. Today's politics is absolutely dominated by Blair and Brown. With the Labour Party about to hit the self-destruct button (inevitable really in a battle of style over principles) I can genuinely see more people taking notice of them (especially as Labour and Lib Dem do share some similar values).

My other problem with them, adding to the free-market economics comment, is they're too middle-class for my liking - you know the types, go to outer-mongolia for a few months come back with a few bands around their wrists and claim they're in tune with the starving around the world while bleating on about multi-culturalism from the comfort of their surburban dwellings fenced off by social mobility borders. Realistically, they're just not my cup of tea, but I'm interested in this juggling act they propose so I'm willing to have a look.

Back to the point, I genuinely feel they will become a real alternative for the reason you mention - the lack of alternative and real politics given by the other two parties.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 5:44:29 AM

meatcleaver

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Germany is certainly having some realities to face up to in the current climate of globalisation with companies like Volkswagen making losses because of the high cost of labour, a greying population and pension costs that are going to go through the roof. However, there is a general sense that Germany belongs to all Germans and not just to the rich and powerful which helps in seeking solutions through working together rather than confrontation though that doesn't always work. Germans also have a willingness to invest in their products and people and don't see short term financial acrobatics as immediate solutions unlike Britain and America. I've always thought Britain has more to learn from Europe than it does from America and maybe the LibDems are the party to do it. The other thing I like about many European countries is that they don't automatically view quality of life with income. Sometimes a slower pace, social cohesion and an active social life are worth forgoing a few extra Euros by spending half ones life at work and not having the time to live.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 6:14:31 AM

pedomania

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Nay Lad, the Limey lib dems are getting more seats in the Mother fucker of parliaments,but by my reckoning, it will take them another 200 years to gain power. They will have to cease being prejudiced against faggot barristers and Alchopop addicts first though. I recall hearing that over 30 years ago, A former Faggot leader of the then Liberal Party,before the merger with the disgruntled socialists, called he Social Democrat Party took place,saying to his Party at their conferance, when they had 6 seats in Parliament," Go back to your constituancies and preper for Government". lol. What a tosser he turned out to be.

< Message edited by pedomania -- 9/30/2006 6:18:49 AM >

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 6:28:25 AM

NorthernGent

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Another issue with Germany is the strength of the unions and strict labour laws. They are having similar economic problems to Britain in the 70s in that they can't lay people off and redirect labour to into new industries - the result being that either the Government subsidises industry or business are bankrupted. Obviously, there is a balance to be achieved but the harsh truth is that in a global business world Germany just can't compete while having such rigid labour laws.

Interesting concept you mention about Germany belonging to Germans. They do have a strong tradition of social welfare and even is far back as before the First World War German society held a firm belief in social provision. The British attempt to improve education around the 1880s was built on the German model which was streets ahead and just before the outbreak of War 34% of Germans voted for a Socialist party in their elections compared with 6% of Britons (Niall Fergusson - The Pity of War). So, they do have the tradition that we simply do not.

In terms of who we have more to learn from, well, ultimately, it depends on your values and principles. If you value social provision then yes, I'm struggling to see what we can learn from the US form of Government. However, there are things that the US does better than Europe - for example, undeniably, continental Europe has a real problem with extreme politics - around 1997 Jean Marie Le Pen got something like 20% of national votes (2nd round?) and this to me is a very scarey scenario. I'm not an extremist, I believe in balance and this is the one issue I have doubts on in terms of Europe.

On the quality of life point, this is all tied in with rampant consumerism. As a nation we're prepared to work ourselves into a frenzy for what? A flasher car, a bigger house etc. I couldn't agree more that income does not in any way, shape or form equate to quality of life. We are more superficial than continental Europeans and in this respect we could learn a lot from Europe.

On balance, there is probably a middle ground to be found between France and Britain that would be a decent place to live in and I suppose that middle-ground is alive and well and called Sweden.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 6

RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 6:35:03 AM

EnglishDomNW

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The Lib Dems won't ever achieve power in the UK. There are simply too many entrenched supporters of the two major parties who won't change their allegiance for anything. I think Kennedy was a better option than Campbell, if only so we could imagine having a ginger-haired alcoholic running the country for a while. Imagine the PPB's

"I love you. No, mate, like I really love you, gerruz a wee dram wid ye?"

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 7:28:31 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Another issue with Germany is the strength of the unions and strict labour laws. They are having similar economic problems to Britain in the 70s in that they can't lay people off and redirect labour to into new industries - the result being that either the Government subsidises industry or business are bankrupted. Obviously, there is a balance to be achieved but the harsh truth is that in a global business world Germany just can't compete while having such rigid labour laws.

Interesting concept you mention about Germany belonging to Germans. They do have a strong tradition of social welfare and even is far back as before the First World War German society held a firm belief in social provision. The British attempt to improve education around the 1880s was built on the German model which was streets ahead and just before the outbreak of War 34% of Germans voted for a Socialist party in their elections compared with 6% of Britons (Niall Fergusson - The Pity of War). So, they do have the tradition that we simply do not.

In terms of who we have more to learn from, well, ultimately, it depends on your values and principles. If you value social provision then yes, I'm struggling to see what we can learn from the US form of Government. However, there are things that the US does better than Europe - for example, undeniably, continental Europe has a real problem with extreme politics - around 1997 Jean Marie Le Pen got something like 20% of national votes (2nd round?) and this to me is a very scarey scenario. I'm not an extremist, I believe in balance and this is the one issue I have doubts on in terms of Europe.

On the quality of life point, this is all tied in with rampant consumerism. As a nation we're prepared to work ourselves into a frenzy for what? A flasher car, a bigger house etc. I couldn't agree more that income does not in any way, shape or form equate to quality of life. We are more superficial than continental Europeans and in this respect we could learn a lot from Europe.

On balance, there is probably a middle ground to be found between France and Britain that would be a decent place to live in and I suppose that middle-ground is alive and well and called Sweden.

The Germans do have serious union problems and like Britain the unions are the problem, neither serving their members or able to compromise for the good of the country, they are more interested in their own power. The only thing going for Germany at the moment is the quality of their goods, whether they remain such high quality when they are forced to outsource is another thing.

As for extremists, that is largely down to the election systems of particular countries. Le Pen achieved what he did because the left was seriously divided, not because of the overwhelming support for Le Pen. Much of Le Pen's vote was protest votes because the government is unwilling or unable to tackle the country's problems. In Germany, extremists have to reach a threshold before they can get into office and some have local seats much the same as Britain's BNP has. Holland's so called extremists were not as extreme as they were portrayed in Britain. Fortuijn was not racist as such, he was just against more immigration, saying 'Holland is full' we look after everyone here but no more and attracted large support from ethnic minorities apparently. Believe me, from Europe, Britain doesn't look so benigh.

Much of Britain's apparent individual wealth has much to do with credit, the boom is a bubble. In Europe people are far more conservative with spending and as a result they don't have to work all hours god sends to pay the bills.

Have you been to Sweden? It's boring. It has everything but if only they could overcome the boring factor, it might be a place worth living.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 7:34:24 AM

Lordandmaster

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Yeah, nothing like a war in Iraq, a religious right wing, corporate crime, and voter fraud to liven up a nation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Have you been to Sweden? It's boring. It has everything but if only they could overcome the boring factor, it might be a place worth living.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 8:06:59 AM

NorthernGent

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Never been to Sweden but boredom is a personal state of mind so I'll reserve judgement. I will say if that is the worst insult that can be thrown at the country then they must be doing something right. I do know someone who lived there and he had only good times.

To say the unions were the problem in Britain in the 70s is not calling it right. They could see traditional industry going down the pan and ultimately they were proved right when communties were left to rot with the closure of these industries. They had a duty to themselves and their members. The problem with Britain was a much wider problem i.e. the loss of Empire and industrial might coupled with the effects of nigh on bankruptcy after WW2. Put simply, Britain was struggling to get back on her feet due to wider economic issues.

On the BNP, they've never had 1 MP. Ultimately, if we wanted BNP MPs there would be a groundswell of opinion that would at least aim to cause change to the electoral system. As there is no such thing, it's fair to say they have no significant backing.

Every country has protest voters and political infighting so regardless of the reasons 20% of the French vote is an issue in anyone's book.

I could cite Austria and the coaltion involving the far-right Freedom (the irony of it) Party that was voted in 2000. The link below is a look at Europe's extreme parties (including Britain at the bottom).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,,711990,00.html

Some of these parties have actually formed coalition Governments so it's fair to say that extreme politics is significant in continental Europe.

Back to the Lib Dem point of posting, I can genuinely see them taking support from Labour over Iraq. In terms of the EU, it is not a vote winning issue (unlike say 1992), it's old hat, so their stance on Europe is largely irrelevant in terms of vote winning.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 10

RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 8:23:03 AM

LadyEllen

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I would love to see a LibDem government - but by 2015? I think probably five to ten years too soon to be honest. It will take much more than nine years to build the kind of reputation and to assemble enough people of the right calibre to form an effective government that would be worthy of power. They have lots of good people and that is growing and their reputation is growing as a possible alternative, but it will take time. Alongside that process of growth in themselves, they also rely on the steady decline of reputation of Labour and Tory, which as they decline will become less and less of a draw for the best and brightest who currently back them.

LibDems have a lot of good policies which are welcomed by a huge proportion of the electorate, but for some time yet as English I believe said, there are far too many entrenched supporters of the two current major parties for the LibDems to have any chance except perhaps as power brokers in a hung parliament; literally, one could put a turd up for election in some constituencies and as long as its sprayed blue or red according to popular local taste there, it would be elected. Indeed, this is one of the key problems with Labour and Tory alike, it would seem, and it will be their downfalls.

One of the key policies LibDems have is to switch from the current "first past the post" system of election, to one of proportional representation (PR), and it is simply inconceivable that the LibDems would ever change that, even if elected via the current unfair and unrepresentative system. How unfair and unrepresentative? Well, the exact figures I dont have to hand, but the current Labour government was apparently elected on less than 40% of the votes cast, in an election in which just over half the electorate participated. Why do people not vote? Because the current system makes it not worth voting for many, whose view will count for nothing in their constituencies, where the blue or red turd will be elected regardless. Add to that the cynicism with which politics is now regarded in the UK, and it is a recipe for such minority governments as Labour now to do as they please and be fairly sure of nothing more than nuisance protest against it.

PR may well result in a myriad of small parties entering parliament and holding power in hung votes, carrying influence beyond their size and denying the so called strong government (dictatorship in all but name, often), that the current system provides for. But, that is the nature, or at least should be, of representative democracy - everyone gets a voice and a say. Inconvenient perhaps for some interests in this country, but far fairer.

E

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 8:28:54 AM

NorthernGent

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I believe it was 35%.

In terms of why people don't vote - another discussion for another topic. Same with the merits/limitations of proportional representation.

What I would like to know is how do the Lib Dems intend to reconcile free-market economics with social provision?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 8:56:02 AM

EnglishDomNW

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It's almost 25 years to the day since Steel told the party faithful in Llandudno 'Go back to your constituencies and prepare for Government'. Half of the candidates have died of old age while they were preparing.

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"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 10:39:55 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, nothing like a war in Iraq, a religious right wing, corporate crime, and voter fraud to liven up a nation.

Danes might wish Sweden was involved in Iraq at weekends when Copenhagen seems to be invaded by the whole Swedish nation whose sole aim appears to getting as pissed as they can before they they have to go back to their dry politically correct country where they can happily commit suicide because they are so depressed. LOL Some people's lives are just too sanitized for their own sanity.

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 10:59:50 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

On the BNP, they've never had 1 MP. Ultimately, if we wanted BNP MPs there would be a groundswell of opinion that would at least aim to cause change to the electoral system. As there is no such thing, it's fair to say they have no significant backing.

Every country has protest voters and political infighting so regardless of the reasons 20% of the French vote is an issue in anyone's book.

I could cite Austria and the coaltion involving the far-right Freedom (the irony of it) Party that was voted in 2000. The link below is a look at Europe's extreme parties (including Britain at the bottom).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,,711990,00.html

Some of these parties have actually formed coalition Governments so it's fair to say that extreme politics is significant in continental Europe.

The right in Europe is not a coherent block and never will be because many of the parties are reactions to other Europeans as opposed to none Europeans. Belgium Vlaamse Blok although it is racist, hate their fellow French Belgians even more than Osama bin Laden. Austria's freedom Party is more fiercely anti-East European than anything else. The support for the right in many countries is more about nationalism than racism though they will use whatever popular issue they can to get votes. However, the strength of the EU is that each country polices each other and can be ostracized and taken to the European Court if it implimnents racist or even nationalist policies.As long as the German right is insignificant and that only rises to number it has because of the problems of unification and the less educated east Germans.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

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RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 12:10:08 PM

NorthernGent

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Had another quick browse of the link and what I see are the phrases "anti-semitism" and "Islam is backward" so racism is certainly an issue with these parties.

In terms of the Belgain far right party you mention, they advocate the return of all non-european immigrants to home countries as per the link below. Not the sort of politics we should be queuing up to get involved in.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3994867.stm

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 16

RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 12:22:02 PM

NorthernGent

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Swedish nation whose sole aim appears to getting as pissed as they can before they they have to go back to their dry politically correct country where they can happily commit suicide because they are so depressed. LOL Some people's lives are just too sanitized for their own sanity.

Suggesting depression in Sweden is caused by social provision or a sanitised society is well wide of the mark.

As per the link, the cause of this depression is a mystery and there is an argument to say it is at least partly hereditary.

http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/News____14345.aspx

Anyway, back to the Lib Dems, does anyone know how they intend to do the balancing act?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 17

RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 12:29:46 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Had another quick browse of the link and what I see are the phrases "anti-semitism" and "Islam is backward" so racism is certainly an issue with these parties.

In terms of the Belgain far right party you mention, they advocate the return of all non-european immigrants to home countries as per the link below. Not the sort of politics we should be queuing up to get involved in.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3994867.stm

If Britain had a proportional representation system you would probably find a bigger % voting for the BNP than now. Britain's electoral system hides a lot of extremism.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 18

RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 12:35:08 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Suggesting depression in Sweden is caused by social provision or a sanitised society is well wide of the mark.

Maybe it is herditary why Copenhagen's streets are full of Swedish drunks at weekend or maybe it is Sweden's strict drinking laws and the price of alcohol there that makes a ferry over to Copenhagen to get blathered, cheap at the price. But if you have never been to Sweden you won't know how boring it is. It certainly competes with Switzerland for bourgeois boredom capital of the world, though as to its contribution to world culture, I think I prefer Abba to the cockoo clock.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 19

RE: Lib Dem Government by 2015 - 9/30/2006 12:36:17 PM

NorthernGent

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Look at the whole system rather than just the small details. We do not go in for extremist politics, we never have done and this is shown in our Governments of the past. Look at Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria etc and historically and today they are inclined towards extreme politics. The electoral system is merely a system, if we wanted far right parties to have a say in Government then we would have provided the system to support this.

Like it or not, continental Europeans have a significant race issue borne out by the Governments they elect to represent them.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 20

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