RE: Iraq: For Solutions only

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WyrdRich -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 3:31:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich Might get it from somebody else Sinergy, but my only reservation about just getting the hell out immediately is the message it sends; "The USA is unwilling to sacrifice and can be beaten by unreasoning barbarity." That message would inspire the Death Cult to do very foolish things. Hello A/all, How many soldiers have to die before the US is willing to make that same statement that you just made, that was given as a reason to keep us in Indochina for 14+ and 55,000+ deaths? Sinergy Yeah, that occured to me while I was typing it, but I'll stick by the statement anyway. I said it was a reservation, not an absolute. I'd imagine the same kind of reasoning went on in the old USSR once they figured out Afghanistan was never going to cooperate. And the Soviets were playing a lot rougher than we are willing to do in Iraq. The message has already been sent anyway. The Beirut pullout and the Blackhawk down fiasco said it pretty well. This one would be bigger, but not a new event. Hell, until we can get past this 'party before country' shit, it is pretty much true. It's going to be a whole lot worse both here and there before it gets better.

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 4:11:19 PM)
Rich: I did not realize I was getting too heavy. I was simply pointing out that when a person takes the oath and joins the military they are not absolved of personal responsibility for their actions. I also pointed out that they are not paid very well and the paultry amount they are paid the govt. shakes them down for a big part of it. Up until the end of the Spanish American war they got a piece of the action. Bottom line...getting out of Iraq is easy...we just leave. That is not going to happen because the people who run the government are making too much money by us being there and putting a demopub in the white house or filling the senate and house of representatives with dempubs wont change anything. The farce that the world will think us weak if we leave and that our leaving will embolden the "death cult" doesn't hold any more credence now than it did in the Viet Nam war. Most of the world thinks we are bunch of international thugs now. If we leave and create a power vaccum who cares...it is their country let them work it out. We left Viet Nam and guess what the power vaccum sucked Colonel Sanders and Ronald McDonald right into downtown Hanoi....so much for the doom and gloomers. thompson

WyrdRich -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 4:47:49 PM)
Thom, sounds like crossed wires in communication. The original reference was to a soldier "taking responsibility" for saving his own ass by deserting. "Death Cult" is a term I've become fond of lately. "Islamic-Fascists" is apparently politically incorrect now. I was using "Islamic crazy people" but someone on here compared them to the Cult of Shiva and I like this better. No matter what we call them, they aren't going to go away no matter what we do in Iraq.

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 5:37:16 PM)
It strikes me that there is no shortage of fools willing to die to make rich people richer. It makes no difference whether it is Butch O'Hare (named an airport in Chicago after him) or Mohamed Atta (who knows what they will name for him. Here is an interesting link concerning who and how money is made on a war. HTTP://www.goldismoney.info/forums/t66815-exelent-article-on-rothschild-history.html thompson

MASTERRocker -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 5:49:34 PM)
So... let me understand this.... American and Canadian soldiers are fools???????? Is that what you are implying??????

Sinergy -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 6:35:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee Remember this little shit? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega The CIA's bum boy in Panama. Major supplier of white powder capital for covert ops by the Greatest Democracy on Earth. At least 500, perhaps 3,000 Panamanians killed and 20,000 to 30,000 rendered homeless when the US went in to arrest their own little monster (seeing a patern here, Popeye?). Promises by the USA to repair the damage and make compensation never honoured. Yadda yadda.... Hello A/all, I was reading a book recently, might have been Gregory Palaste's "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" that stated that Reagan's invasion of Panama coincided (oddly enough) with a time period where both China and Japan were negotiating with Noriega to rebuild the Panama Canal (at their cost) so that modern size cargo ships could use it. The net financial cost to the United States, were this to happen, would be catastrophically bad. Almost all cargo going between Asia and Europe, sails into west coast ports, is railed to the east coast (or vice versa), put on ships, and sent on it's merry way. US companies make huge amounts of money doing this. While I know that Noriega was painted as the bad guy. I find it amusing that the wildly popular (in his own country) Chavez is being painted as the bad guy by the US, at a time when oil supplies from the middle east to the United States are in jeopardy and we could use a steady supply of oil from Venezuala. Regarding your oil comments, WyrdRich, when Monkeyboy was selling his war he took great pains to explain to all of us that oil had nothing to do with why he was invading. Something about Al Qaeda and 9/11, if I remember correctly. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

juliaoceania -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 6:38:25 PM)
Another factoid I read in a book called Snow Kings about the Andean drug trade mentioned that the flow of drug traffic doubled through Panama after Noriega was ousted..... G.O.D was at stake ya know.

WyrdRich -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 6:39:06 PM)
I'd go ahead and chuck that book in the trash Sinergy. Bush the First invaded Panama, not Reagan. December 89.... Really screwed up my plans for the holidays. Pineapple face made it easy too. He went on TV to say that a state of War existed between the two countries.

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 7:27:16 PM)
Master Rocker: No I am not implying anything....I am saying explicitly that anyone who goes and gets shot at to make rich people richer is a fool. Canadian,American,British,German,French etc...Please disabuse yourself of the notion that somehow it is patriotic to go kill people to make rich people richer. My team, your team, their team. You notice that none of Bushe's kids or Cheny's are in the military. George Bush was in the national guard at a time when even jesus christ could not have gotten in the national guard and there is no record that the draft dodging punk could even make his guard meetings.

Sinergy -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 7:28:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Have you read about war in Papua New Guinea? Back in the old days, when there was literally no technology beyond stone implements, men fought wars over two things: pigs and women. The men often wore bones through the nose and elaborate headdresses in order to impress each other. Peace treaties were brokered when one tribe decided they were getting their asses kicked, and, guess what, the spoils were calculated in pigs and women. Today things have changed a little. Men still fight wars over two things: pigs and women. They still wear bones through the nose and elaborate headdresses. But now they all run around in little Adidas soccer shorts. Ah, globalization. quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Anyone who does not understand that we are there to f**k their women and take their dope is just ignoring the facts of this (or any other war for that matter) war. People dont kill people. Stone implements (or Adidas shorts) kill people. Just me, could be wrong, etc. Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 7:41:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich I'd go ahead and chuck that book in the trash Sinergy. Bush the First invaded Panama, not Reagan. December 89.... Really screwed up my plans for the holidays. Pineapple face made it easy too. He went on TV to say that a state of War existed between the two countries. Hello A/all, I may have my ex-presidents wrong, but the book made a cogent analysis of what the United States is doing foreign policy-wise. I am slightly shocked that the Wimp would actually have the cajones to invade, but then I realized other people were dying for it and he was in no personal danger. Is somebody saying "A state of war exists between our countries" an excuse to level the entire weight of the US military on them? Secondly, did you hear him actually say it or was it provided for you by Faux news? The problem with that logic (allowing people to pick a fight with oneself) is that eventually the person being challenged meets somebody more insane, or better at fighting, or both, than one is. Apply this to sovereign nations. We go around picking fights we will eventually find somebody who will hand us our hat. Since the stakes are worldwide annhilation of the human race (nuclear, biological weapons, etc.) is this really a game we want to be playing? Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 7:45:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Master Rocker: No I am not implying anything....I am saying explicitly that anyone who goes and gets shot at to make rich people richer is a fool. Canadian,American,British,German,French etc...Please disabuse yourself of the notion that somehow it is patriotic to go kill people to make rich people richer. My team, your team, their team. You notice that none of Bushe's kids or Cheny's are in the military. George Bush was in the national guard at a time when even jesus christ could not have gotten in the national guard and there is no record that the draft dodging punk could even make his guard meetings. Hello A/all, While I totally agree with the comments about Monkeyboy and Shotgun, as you pointed out they were never actually "in" the Military. I take exception to referring to people in the military being foolish. Prior to Monkeyboy being handed the keys to the candy store, the military was a viable option for people to get a Real Job, learn skills, make something of their lives, with a steady paycheck and great benefits. A person with no other options could do far worse than to be involved in the US military prior to the Simian In Chief. However, once they are in the military, they have no choices, no options, etc., apart from death or desertion. The ones who are fools are the clowns who stole the last election and are working to steal the next one. Great article in Rolling Stone by RFK jr., about Diebold. Just me, could be wrong, etc. Sinergy

WyrdRich -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 7:54:14 PM)
Saw it on the dayroom TV on CNN. This was before the advent of Fox news. I remember laughing about what an incredibly stupid thing it was to do... I probably should have checked the alert roster before snickering. Just remember now, there are plenty of places in the world where reading a book like that would get you imprisoned, tortured (the for real kind) and shot in the head. Down the Revolution!

juliaoceania -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 8:01:44 PM)
quote: Just remember now, there are plenty of places in the world where reading a book like that would get you imprisoned, tortured (the for real kind) and shot in the head. Down the Revolution! There was a time when a librarian could be forced to give up records to the fact you read such a book and then the tyrant of that country could have you declared an enemy combatant... On edit I really could not help myself Rich... your post just screamed this response...smiles

Zensee -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 8:06:51 PM)
I didn't mean to redirect this thread into a discussion of Panama. I was just trying to make a point to Popeye that running away from the messes you create isn't a solution, just avoidance. And that seems to be a patern here. I see two types of responses in this thread, ones that try to tackle the thorny of what's right for the region, the people and might lead to some stability - the others wonder how can the USA get out with as much of its money, people and reputation intact and while not carrying its ass in a bag. Perhaps I misunderstood the original challenge but a solution is more than just looking for a hole in the fence and running for it as fast as you can. 0

Sinergy -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 8:20:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich Saw it on the dayroom TV on CNN. This was before the advent of Fox news. I remember laughing about what an incredibly stupid thing it was to do... I probably should have checked the alert roster before snickering. Just remember now, there are plenty of places in the world where reading a book like that would get you imprisoned, tortured (the for real kind) and shot in the head. Down the Revolution! I just want to be free to ride my machine and not be hassled by the Man. Just me, etc. Sinergy

SirKenin -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 9:12:54 PM)
I can not believe there are still people retarded enough to blame Bush for this whole mess. Right from the get go he had next to nothing to do with it. The Senate voted to send your men to war. An overwhelming 77 to 23, which means the majority of Democrats as well as the Senate was equally divided at the time, voted in favor of the war. I can not believe that some Americans can be so ignorant as to not understand their own political system. All Bush does is sign the papers and speak to the cameras. That is about it. This strikes at the very core of your country. At least if you are going to bitch you should make some kind of effort to know what you are talking about. If you want to turn the situation around, vote a new Senate. And it obviously has to be a select few Democrats that do not support the war.

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 9:22:38 PM)
Sinergy: I am not sure I understand your logic. If Bush &co. send young people out to kill people so the rich can get richer then that is bad and I can refer to the military as fools. But if a demopub does it then it becomes some sort of bootstrap enterprise for the lowest economic fraction of our country. JFK sent me to Cuba to kill people for $72 bux a month. Then he sent me to Dominican Republic to kill people and then he sent me to South America to kill people. then LBJ sent me to Indochina to kill people but by then I was getting $123 a month for the job. Then they sent me to Central America to kill people. When I got out the GI bill was paying less than $200 a month...you cant go to Harvard on $200 a month. If you want to raise the economic status of the lowest economic fraction of this country send them to school not to war. It is way cheaper. Going into the military and killing people to make rich people richer is foolish and anyone who thinks otherwise is just deluding themselves. If you go in the military you are explicitly agreeing to kill people. Under criminal law if you are part of a gang that sticks up a liquor store and kills the clerk everyone is guilty of murder or is an accessory to murder, the guy who pulls the triger, the driver, the lookout, even the guy who provided the gun if he knows it is to be used in this crime. So everyone in the military from the broom pusher to the staff planner to the grunt who pulls the trigger to the guy who counts the bodies is guilty. If we are attacked I do not have a problem with vaporizing everyone of the intruders...but that is not the case, not now ...not then. thompson

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 9:43:18 PM)
Sir Kenin: I am a bit curious. Were you in a coma or in the shithouse smoking dope when Bush &co started this war. He lied long deep and again to congress and the American people about the justification for the war. Shotgun Dick was on meet the press the other day and Tim Russert asked him that since we now know that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq would he would he have acted differently had he known it then. Shotgun Dicks answer was that this is and always was about regime change and "weapons of mass deception "or no we would have followed the same course. FYI: it is the house of representatives that the constitution give the sole power to declare war not the senate....the senate may only concur but it is the president who goes to the house and request a declaration of war and presents his case with "8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a diagram on the back of each and every one" (just like alice's restaurant) thompson

juliaoceania -> RE: Iraq: For Solutions only (10/3/2006 9:47:00 PM)
quote: I can not believe there are still people retarded enough to blame Bush for this whole mess. Right from the get go he had next to nothing to do with it. The Senate voted to send your men to war. An overwhelming 77 to 23, which means the majority of Democrats as well as the Senate was equally divided at the time, voted in favor of the war. I can not believe that some Americans can be so ignorant as to not understand their own political system. All Bush does is sign the papers and speak to the cameras. That is about it. This strikes at the very core of your country. At least if you are going to bitch you should make some kind of effort to know what you are talking about. If you want to turn the situation around, vote a new Senate. And it obviously has to be a select few Democrats that do not support the war. I suppose you do not understand how it worked, there was no declaration of war.. there was only a "resolution" which Bush had promised he would go through the UN and make a coalition like the first gulf war before he used it.... Now was he a lying sack of shit when he said that he was going to attempt to find a diplomatic solution or at least get major support for his war? Oh hell yes he was a liar! Does this absolve those who voted for the resolution... absolutely not! I will not vote for anyone who voted for it... period. But make no mistake... there has been no declaration of war, and the congress should not be funding one... they are mostly republicans though

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