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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/5/2006 9:56:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Atheism and other forms of godless spiritualities will always be inherently superior (oh please bring up Stalin like I know you want to) to theistic philosophies simply because they don't have the luxury of defending their beliefs because "my god said so".



And yet statements like that one always make me think, how is your ungod superior to their god...it just really makes me shake my head... Just the fact you used the word "superior" to describe your belief system puts you in the same "my belief system is better than your belief system" bullshit worldview...



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/5/2006 9:58:45 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Zenrage, our govt. should be fixing the economic desolation in our own country caused by things like "NAFTA".
Those people need to fix their own economic desolation.
Socialism never works.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/5/2006 10:03:13 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Given there is an enemy, people in the US military will defend me while I sleep. 


So, for the first time in 60 years the conservatives have picked something that would actually shoot back given a chance, Muslim Terrorists.



Yes, Im sure all those people in Panama, and Grenada, and Bosnia, and Vietnam, and Korea, and... were simply cleaning their weapons and had a problem.

I know you have been fed the line by Faux news that Islam is to blame, but the vast majority of the followers of Islam a) dont live in the middle east and b) dont view the United States as the Great Satan and c) dont want to wipe out our standard of living.

How do I know this?  They live in Indonesia and make the shoes (Nike, Adidas, etc) that you are probably wearing.

My question to you is more fundamental in nature, but I suspect you wont answer.

Why did we invade Iraq again?

If Monkeyboy had any military left, we would be invading North Korea as we speak.

Sinergy

edited to change wear -> make

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 10/5/2006 10:04:22 PM >

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/5/2006 10:58:24 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		For the record I think Sinergy has some serious issues but his arguments in this thread are spot on.  There were large Christian and even Jewish settlements and villiages spread throught the middle east until relatively recently.

America created the radical Muslim fundamentalism.  The Iranian fundamentalists came from out support of the shaw but was unable to spread due to the fact they Persian Shia are not the majority in the ME.  WE stired up muslim fanatacism in order to gain recruits and money to fight the Russians in Afghanistan.  We pushed the Saudis to support Wahabi schools all over the ME and we forgot to tell them to stop when the Russians left.

Of course the fact that we support every brutal dictator in the ME doesn't help matters either nor does the fact that every time they have had a democracy  we have overthrown it.  Some people I guess find that irritating.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/5/2006 11:13:41 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

The Iranian fundamentalists came from out support of the shaw but was unable to spread due to the fact they Persian Shia are not the majority in the ME. 


That is the "Shah"  or "Shaha" of Iran, not the "shaw"

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/5/2006 11:17:27 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Its also not "they Persian" either...if you look at my overall syntax I am tired and just not paying attention. 

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/5/2006 11:29:08 PM   
bills944


Posts: 122
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
The Bush/Cheney Police State Is Upon Us By Steven Z
10-4-6 Have you noticed the Military Flag on Police Officers' Sleeves?

Most people may think nothing or disregard the significance of the GOLD FRINGED military flag on a police officer's sleeve. However, let's examine just what this means. To start with let's go back to a history lesson on Who is Running America?   http://www.barefootsworld.net/usfraud.html

For a comedic relief version, hear it from George Carlin: Who is Running America? http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=935607276

After reading the information at the link - Who is Running America's extensive summation, you will understand that all "U.S. citizens" are Statutory Creations and are contractually (i.e., under Contract Law) considered to be - Chattel Property or Indentured Servants of the private Federal corporation known as The UNITED STATES, which conducts all its business under Private International Law (i.e., Admiralty / Maritime / Commercial Law) and land owned or controlled by the aforesaid private corporation is under martial law,       because of the War and Emergency Powers Acts -                 - Senate Report 93-549.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/5/2006 11:38:39 PM   
bills944


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Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

   That's nice Bill, and yet those links work, you haven't been taken away in one of Homeland Security's unmarked white vans and aluminum foil is widely available.  Or are you actually an agent of Thought Police trying to entrap dissidents?



Olbermann’s Special Comment: It is not the Democrats whose inaction in the face of the enemy you fearBy: John Amato @ 6:30 PM - PDT  
Keith hits another one out of the park. Video - WMV   Video - QTOlbermann: And lastly tonight, a Special Comment, about — lying. While the leadership in Congress has self-destructed over the revelations of an unmatched, and unrelieved, march through a cesspool… While the leadership inside the White House has self-destructed over the revelations of a book with a glowing red cover…The President of the United States — unbowed, undeterred, and unconnected to reality — has continued his extraordinary trek through our country rooting out the enemies of freedom: The Democrats.  http://crooksandliars.com/

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 1:18:09 AM   
bills944


Posts: 122
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		PLAY Help Hastert Hide The Perv!...
http://helphastert.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 3:16:47 AM   
bills944


Posts: 122
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Bush says he can edit security reports



By LESLIE MILLER, Associated Press WriterThu Oct 5, 4:06 PM ET President Bush, again defying Congress, says he has the power to edit the Homeland Security Department's reports about whether it obeys privacy rules while handling background checks, ID cards and watchlists.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061005/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_privacy_1&printer=1;_ylt=AmMtt32MRa5zTm8kNvyPOvQGw_IE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 5:29:26 AM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Given there is an enemy, people in the US military will defend me while I sleep. 


Oh please. Since the end of WWII the conservatives in this country have been trying to objectify "evil" for the sake of "protecting family values". They've taken aim at communists, socialists, hippies, rock and roll, disco, marijuana, homosexuals, AIDS victims, the homeless, heavy metal, Dungeons and Dragons, Spongebob Squarepants, movies, rap, television, liberals and the Teletubbies. Basically anything that belongs to a subculture is fair game. There is nothing valuable in witch hunting the wrong cause for the sake of "family".

So, for the first time in 60 years the conservatives have picked something that would actually shoot back given a chance, Muslim Terrorists. And they had to attack us before they would do so. Now are we supposed to support the government in its actions because they finally got something close to right? I don't think so. As for the troops. Screw them (and I've had two friends there and back and a cousin over there now). If they aren't smart enough to realize that Bush and his cronies are leaving them out there to die just to avoid taking blame for the inevitable outcome of a pullout of Iraq, they don't deserve to come home. Harsh, damn straight. Inappropriate, hell yes. But maybe a high enough death count on our side will be just what it takes to teach America, once and for all, that it can't trust a government that shoots first and asks questions later.

Another religious apologist, sinergy? And yet you act so much smarter than that. Good and evil are subjective terms created for politicians by politicians. As such, those who use religion and other forms of magical thinking to support beneficial actions only pave the way for those who use it to justify the malicious and abusive events. It just depends on which side of the fence you're on and isn't amazing how many people on both sides think "god" is on their side?

Atheism and other forms of godless spiritualities will always be inherently superior (oh please bring up Stalin like I know you want to) to theistic philosophies simply because they don't have the luxury of defending their beliefs because "my god said so".


Straw man argument.

The fact that I know quite a bit about religion and religious history does not make
me an apologist for religion.  The logic is similar to my knowing quite a bit about abusive relationships and crimes of violence perpetrated against women, but this does not make me an abuser or assaulter of women.

Fundamentalists (not just religious) have a much longer history trying to do those things almost anywhere, not just this country, since long before World War 2.  There have been any number of atheists in history who were just as awful to other people as religious fundamentalists are.

I am not sure what the Stalin comment referred to, but you brought it up ao perhaps you can clarify what you are thinking.  I was thinking more along the lines of Pol Pot or Mao ZeDong.

The problem is intolerance towards people who dont think the way a certain person thinks, not religion. 

Besides which, I dont personally blame the person in the military for following orders.  I blame the nitwit that Dumbfuckistan elected who gives them their orders.  Your arguments about the people in the military are very similar to those who blamed the ones coming home from Vietnam. 

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

edited to add the Dumbfuckistan comments

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 10/6/2006 5:32:28 AM >

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 6:00:05 AM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Atheism and other forms of godless spiritualities will always be inherently superior (oh please bring up Stalin like I know you want to) to theistic philosophies simply because they don't have the luxury of defending their beliefs because "my god said so".



And yet statements like that one always make me think, how is your ungod superior to their god...it just really makes me shake my head... Just the fact you used the word "superior" to describe your belief system puts you in the same "my belief system is better than your belief system" bullshit worldview...




There are three possibilities:

1. God exists
2. God may exist
3. God does not exist

1. God exists. This requires evidence that god exists. There is no such evidence outside religious faith. This statement is false.

2. God may exist. To claim that god may exist requires the assumption that God could exist under the right circumstances and that there is evidence to support that under these circumstances, God exists. Regardless of what knowledge may exist in the future, there is no such evidence now. This statement is currently false.

3. God doesn't exist. This requires no evidence because to assume it is false would be to state that one of the other statements is true and must have evidence to support them - which they don’t. Ergo, by default and until evidence exists to show otherwise, God does not exist.

The notion of "God did it" is not a default for a lack of scientific understanding and religious faith is not a substitute for real empirical evidence. Critical thinking is always superior to "letting things slide" philosophically.

popeye1250, you are confusing Communism with Socialism. Socialism does work as long as there is a system of political checks and balances in regard to how it is applied.  With a good system of checks and balances, along with having multiple political parties, as many European countries have, the social responsibility promoted by adding elements of socialism to a capitalist society are very beneficial. Communism is as economically naive as Libertarianism is socially naive. Pure Capitalism only promotes long term economic and social devastation and can not work under any circumstances.

Sinergy, I never said Islam was the cause, only the catalyst. As with all abrahamic religions, once it brainwashes followers into believing the world's good comes from the "one true god" then they can just as easily be fooled into thinking that their "one true god" will allow them to take abusive and malevolent actions without posthumous retribution. Religion can only be viewed as benficial if people keep it strictly to themselves. Unfortunately, no religion promotes the idea of not using their faith to determine course of interaction between people of different philosophies. Thus we have the problems we have today.

Religions brainwash people into believing they have something called a soul and that soul has value to mystical powers beyond the grave - which conveniently enough, no one can return from and verify. So, "just in case", billions of people flock to these snake oil salesmen that tell them if they do certain actions and point their fingers at other political enemies who hold different philosophies they will be entitled to a posthumous reward system.

Well, here's my answer to that nonsense. I am putting a 5 million soul bounty on the head of each individual who makes life difficult for anyone else using religion as a justification. Specifically, Pat Robertson, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Fred Phelps, Any politician voting against stem cell research, Roy Moore, Scott Minnich and all other Creationists and all Muslim Extremists. Also any modern day "faith-healing" televangelist who tells people that believing in God will make their economic or social lives better before they die. This bounty will be paid in full to any angel, god, demon or devil who shows authenticity of their existence and direct evidence that they were responsible for the deaths requested.

I sent that last bit to Fred Phelps via his website. I have yet to hear back from him.

< Message edited by ZenrageTheKeeper -- 10/6/2006 6:08:05 AM >

_____________________________

If Men never thought with their penises, all you girls would still have cooties.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 6:35:56 AM   
bills944


Posts: 122
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		THE ANSWER IS
3. God doesn't exist. This requires no evidence
but evidence exists

Watch The Elegant Universe 
 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html 
The Elegant Universe homepage

To view any part of this three-hour miniseries, choose an episode from one of the three columns below and select either QuickTime (full-screen option available) or RealVideo to begin. If you experience difficulty viewing, it may be due to high demand. We regret this, and suggest you try back at another time. Note that NOVA programs are not available for downloading due to rights restrictions. 




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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 6:47:25 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Atheism and other forms of godless spiritualities will always be inherently superior (oh please bring up Stalin like I know you want to) to theistic philosophies simply because they don't have the luxury of defending their beliefs because "my god said so".



And yet statements like that one always make me think, how is your ungod superior to their god...it just really makes me shake my head... Just the fact you used the word "superior" to describe your belief system puts you in the same "my belief system is better than your belief system" bullshit worldview...



Julia:
Let me ask you this.
Who is the ethically superior person?
The religious person who does the "right thing"  out of fear, because if they do not, god will fuck over them.
or
The athiest who does the "right thing" because it is the right thing.
thompson

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 7:13:26 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Where are these dangerous places and who are they protecting me from while I sleep?

What exactly is there about WW II that you feel needed our intervention?



I am not sure how to answer the first question.  I suppose I could talk about the Civil War, but the problem I have with that is that I can argue both sides of the issue.

Given there is an enemy, people in the US military will defend me while I sleep.  You may not have the highest level of respect for people who put their own personal safety ahead of the safety of the body politic, but I do.  I was in a store once and a soldier shipping to Iraq the next day was trying to buy 2-24 packs of beer, but his paycheck had not been deposited.  I told the clerk to put it on my tab.  The guy asked how he could thank me, I replied to him "Come home safe, all of you."

At the tail end of World War 2, after Russia had destroyed Germany's military ability to conduct war, the denoument would have been the soviet juggernaut invading and conquering most of Europe.  Perhaps this would have been best for everybody. 

Perhaps we could have simply allowed Hitler to conquer all of Europe and everything would have ended up hunky dory.  I am not sure it would have been in the United States best interest to allow Japan to control all of Asia, although I could probably argue convincingly why it would be wonderful thing.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy


"The Civil War" ????? I do not understand your reference.

To point out that someone is being a fool does not mean that I have no respect for them.  It means I think they are being a fool.  I love and respect my sister but she was a fool to marry the asshole she eventualy devorced.

"Given that there is an enemy"   there is no enemy, that is my point.

The chances of Hitler having won WWII are non existant.  While I realize that most Americans believe that WE won WWII any serious student of that conflict knows better...at best we were a minor player.
Although as a minor player we did wind up with most of the chips.
thompson

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 8:29:49 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Atheism and other forms of godless spiritualities will always be inherently superior (oh please bring up Stalin like I know you want to) to theistic philosophies simply because they don't have the luxury of defending their beliefs because "my god said so".



And yet statements like that one always make me think, how is your ungod superior to their god...it just really makes me shake my head... Just the fact you used the word "superior" to describe your belief system puts you in the same "my belief system is better than your belief system" bullshit worldview...



Julia:
Let me ask you this.
Who is the ethically superior person?
The religious person who does the "right thing"  out of fear, because if they do not, god will fuck over them.
or
The athiest who does the "right thing" because it is the right thing.
thompson


That is a false dichotomy, many religious people do the right thing because it feels good. To measure ratios is impossible because you would have to go inside of them and weigh their heart conditions... unless you are a superior being yourself, I doubt you can do this.

It nevert ceases to amaze me how judgmental Atheists are, projecting their own sense of superiority on the religious... As an anthropologist I see very little difference between many (not all) Atheists and religious zealots... and No I do not do anything because a superior being might punish me. That is outside my personal understanding of The Sacred.

The ethically superior person does not need this issue to make them feel ethically superior

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 9:06:33 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Atheism in the case of Heathens is usually judgemental given the course of history and the slaughter by christians................

We are unlikely to buy the God of Peace lie again.

Just musing and not having any direct bearing on Iraq. Or fat girls for that matter, and no directed attacks against specific persons.  Pretty much a throw away post, I suppose.

Ron  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 9:40:29 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Ron,

Most religious people are not Christians..smiles.

I agree that religion has been used as a force of violence... but usually there is an economic motive that truly started the conflict. Very few wars are truly over religion... that is just part of the rationalization process to move in and steal what someone else has...... Atheists cam use the same thinking process "Look at us, we are so rational, and we are so wonderful , and those zealots are bad unethical people we need to fear... lets go take their shit and kill them all"... same thing in my mind... and it HAS happened.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 12:07:00 PM   
bills944


Posts: 122
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		The athiest who does the "right thing" because it is the right thing.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/6/2006 12:09:01 PM   
bills944


Posts: 122
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		 YouTube - Amy Goodman on the Colbert Report, 10/5/2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JifRVpY3Fo

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Profile   Post #: 180
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