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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/2/2006 10:40:27 PM

Amaros

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Yeah, put me don in the base lusts catagory too - but a meat market? I don't need 'em all, just one.

I don't think porn is all that bad either necessarily, people classed as sexual deviants have been persecuted throught the history of recent Western Civilization, particularly the last 1500 years - is the fantasy of chastity and purity any less delusional than the fantasy of sex without commitment or consequence?

As far as I can tell, it mainly leads to hypocrisy and self hatred, a whitewash that makes even average sexual desires all the seamier and more ignoble, and turns sophmoric hijinks into human tradgedy - we got 1500 years of torture, war and and oppression.

Speaking of which, I was forced to be regaled by Rush Limbaugh today defending the House Chairman on Missing and Exploited Children from charges he pandered to minors, on the grounds that Clinton had extramarital sex - that is one fantasy of chastity and morality that's worn so thin I can see it's rotting intestines.

Porn is just the pendulum swinging the other way for a change. Your grandparents probobly got their sex education watching farm animals copulate - which might not be a bad idea for a sex education video now that I think about it - where's lordandmaster when you need him?

Funny though, I know one Canadian artist who had a story censored because it showed pigs copulating in one panel - the repressed fantasy becomes the neurosis, no one is immune.

I was kind of hoping to get into holographic memory theory and eidetic imagery, then branching into reaction formations. Ah well, maybe tomorrow.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/2/2006 10:42:31 PM >

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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/2/2006 10:46:19 PM

dombill32

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People who spend to much time obsessing on fantasies they have and come to site like this to get them fulfilled end up looking for a person to do the acts of lifestyle and not a person. It lead to selfishness and a lack of understanding.

The fantasy people tend to be lazy (the one line emails and bow to me at the 1st contact, etc.) They dont understand that it takes alot of hard work by both people for this to work, and making scenes happen that might fit someones fantasy takes good planning and knowing the person you are with.

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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/2/2006 11:09:49 PM

roughleather

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Porno isn't the problem. Online is the problem.

I'm in SF, where there's an active kink scene. People actually do this stuff here. And it's not that big a deal. Classic SF scene: Bondage a Go Go, upstairs dungeon, some guy is flogging some girl tied to a cross. There's a dungeon monitor. All this is so routine that the bored dungeon monitor is playing Solitare on her Palm Pilot.

What I read on CollarMe seems to be mostly off in never-never land. 24/7 slavery. "Lifestyle" domination. Online "Financial domination" (or "suckerdom"). The whole online "Gorean" thing. Reality check, people - that's just not what really happens.

Compare what people talk about on CollarMe with what people talk about on Tribe's "SF BDSM" board. CollarMe is mostly fantasy. On Tribe (and Free-association.net, where some SF people from Tribe, fed up with the censorship, went), it's more about practical issues. Volunteers needed for play parties. BDSM singles dinner mixer. The "no talking in the dungeon" rule at the Citadel. Classes in rope techniques. Upcoming parties.

What's so wierd is that the whole "online thing" has taken on such a life of its own, and people act as if it's real. Worse, they then confuse the online world and the real world. I just had a very confused date with someone who'd ODd on romance novels and online BDSM, and she freaked when confronted with a fetish wear store.

So get out more. If you're near a big city, find the local kinky clubs and go. Get a close-up look at the reality. It's not really that scary.

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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/2/2006 11:43:35 PM

LASub4Real

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros
Porn is just the pendulum swinging the other way for a change. Your grandparents probobly got their sex education watching farm animals copulate - which might not be a bad idea for a sex education video now that I think about it - where's lordandmaster when you need him?

Yes, but the whole point is that pornography IS pure fantasy, right down to the aribrushing!
At least the farm animals weren't puppets! Which is why some of our grandparents actually had a better idea of sex than some of us!

LAsub

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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/2/2006 11:50:57 PM

justheather

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Porn is, indeed, a weak, empty subsitute for the real thing. (If that's the role it plays in someone's life, a subsitute.)
If you are in a position to be discussing why your interpersonal relationships are so much more fulfilling than porn, I think the most appropriate response would be to count that among your blessings.
Making lists of all the people who are "ruining it for those of us who are real" is one recent trend that is really really getting old.

Edited to add this is a FAST REPLY, not meant for anyone in particular.

< Message edited by justheather -- 10/2/2006 11:51:30 PM >

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/2/2006 11:57:40 PM

becca333

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Maybe WIIWD is just the same as every other part of life - lots of people getting on with things happily, and a certain percentage of jerks, losers, timewasters, selfish creeps and a few scary psychos.

Pretty much describes the whole human race, really.

Wow, deep!

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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/3/2006 12:11:09 AM

TreSwank

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In all actuality, alot of men watch pornography BECAUSE it detaches them from a woman's uber-emotional psyche.

When I spent a six-month period doing part time work at a gay bar in New London, I noticed a HUGE contrast in the way that gay men dealt with their sexuality. In the gay world, hookups would often happen within five minutes of meeting.......with VERY LITTLE sparse conversation: blowjobs in the bathroom, glory-hole fellatio, sex in dark corners (I'm being totally serious here). The reason that things were like this, was because MEN ARE MEN, and don't have the psychic scruples that women do when the sex monster is involved. I guarantee that if 80% of straight women were willing to blow a total stranger though a hole in a bathroom stall, or take it in the ass from a man that they've barely spoken to for four or five minutes, instead of having to make a fellow run through the "impress me because of my biological need to find suitable DNA for reproduction" game for a simple, one night stand, pornography would be virtually nonexistent - with the exception of those few, unfuckable individuals out there. I'm aware that lightning fast hookups do occur in the straight world (fancying myself as a moderately good hookup artist, due to my wonderful ability to lie through my teeth while making the most bitchingly earnest-looking direct eye contact), but not NEARLY often enough. Sometimes men just want to fantasize about the new secretary that will suck their balls dry within thirty seconds of meeting, instead of having to find common points to talk about while nursing that Jack and Coke. Since that kind of shit doesn't happen too much in the real world, men will ALWAYS love porn. Jesus Christ, I watch a bit of S & M porn on a semi-frequent basis, and would probably watch more of it if I didn't have to work, or go out on the occasional poon-tang quest.

I know that this is off topic from the original post, but this thread made me think of a gal acquaintance who just couldn't understand why men loved pornography so damn much.

< Message edited by TreSwank -- 10/3/2006 12:39:35 AM >

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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/3/2006 7:39:02 AM

Amaros

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I think that's pretty insightful treswank, male sexaul behavior tends to be more overt and it's encouraged by the culture of instant gratification, whereas a similar earthiness in women has been traditionally discouraged. Instead, a sort of "purified" abstraction of a feminine ideal is held up as an example, while women themselves, who naturally cannot live up to this ideal, either learn to live with being so imperfect, often at the cost of their self esteem, or become neurotic trying.

In fact I'm not sure how much of this is innate, and how much is cultural - in other cultures higher degrees of sexual aggressivness in women is tolerated without comment.

The "look but don't touch" element of American sexuality - Cheesecake, the big cock tease, sets up the perfect conditions for pornography to flourish - and a lot of other less desireable things. The obsession with pedophilia for example is much less prevelant in Europe, as far as I can tell, and seems uniquely American, another reaction formation against sexual repreassion, and it would be interesting to see how Rape and Domestic violence statistics compare as well.

Freuds theory of diverted cathexes held a lot of traction throughout most of the Twentieth century in America, with brief departures - the postwar periods following WWI the twenties and Thirties, and WWII notably - the latter however, turned into a bizzarre drug culture, and I'm not talking about the hippies, I'm talking about cocktail party culture, and heavily sedated housewives (Stepford syndrome) which the baby boomers turned on it's ear, restoring a bit of normalcy in the wake.

Pornography is a mediator in this, IMO, by providing a fantasy outlet for sexual aggression, and easing the frustration of the compulsion for the seemingly unattainable - in porn, women are typically enthusiastic, loving, and appreciative of male sexuality, and in the famous Playboy study done in the Eighties to counter the Reagan DOJ attempt to criminalize pronography, men who consumed porn were found to have more respect and less aggressive attitudes towards women.

I think it probobly represents a healthier balance of the actual natural degree of sexual attraction that exists between men and women.

At the same time, the repression also seems to encourage more aggressive types of porn itself, rape and forced sex fantasies, etc., which may have some slightly different effects on expectations, but still far short of the compulsion enabler (poor impulse control) that some try to make it out to be - I still believe repression itself the most focal role in that via reaction formation.

I don't think it's a coincidence that androcentripetal agrarian/pastoral civilizations where women are simulataneously worshipped in abstraction and degraded in practice also tend to be the martial and militant.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/3/2006 7:40:44 AM >

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RE: An Education on Fantasy. - 10/3/2006 7:40:14 PM

Amaros

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Then there is creative visualization, which is a utilitarian form of fantasy.

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