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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 8:29:58 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Besides the last time I checked it's not a crime to "offend" people.


lol not its not a crime, but people have gotten so worried about offending people that they supress their real thoughts to a point where they even lie so as not to offend.  I mean this is basically how we are raised ..."If you cant say something nice, dont say anything at all"....I think theres a when and a how to phrase things for the sake of someone's feelings, then I think theres a line where I'll be damned if Im going to type 50 different qualifiers in order for someone to understand the difference between fact and opinion.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 10/7/2006 8:31:26 AM >


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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 8:38:26 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

becca....I understand too....I made this post awhile back:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_82721/mpage_1/key_disclaimers/tm.htm


Nicely stated.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 8:53:54 AM   
LadyHugs


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Dear Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
This is a good topic, even though its been hashed over many times in the past, present and will be in the future.
 
The generalized question, is how far does one individual have to compromise their true feelings, in order to maintain peace and or avoid salvos of accusations of being a phony or 'not this or that.' 
 
Majority of individuals just want to be accepted for who and what they are.
With the popularity contests, cliques and circles which excludes those who just don't bend over backwards to kiss the rear exterior regions.  People have experienced being black-listed because they don't conform to some founder's groups idea of what is or what isn't true (in their mind's eye) and not necessarily for behavior and or attitude that is a real risk to life,limbs and safety as we know it as safe, sane, consensual, risk awareness, consensual kink.
 
I do agree, that some individuals have a deliverly like a wrecking ball and have every 'intent' to incite those to anger.  Some make sport of this and some behave in such a manner as to test the most patient of all of us.
 
Some though, do put a lot of thought into their words and make every effort to identify their own view of things.  Yes, I do get teased by using the phrase; 'my mind's eye I see' -- But, it does focus on what my logic and my mind sees.   Visual as we all are, our eyes do influence or logic and sometimes leads to assumptions or faulty judgments.  Knowing that most people will agree to such; it invites others to share what they see through their mind's eyes.  Often, I do take great consideration to what is said and will inquire futher and deeper; as I do want to understand and exhaust my questions with answers.  It is the seeking of knowledge of all, to which should never stop out of fear, for being embarrassed by others or humiliated, being subjected to unkindness because they may not see what others may see.  We all can use knowledge and sharing is how we replentish knowledge and or maintain it.  So to, we all need to understand that we will never please everybody, every time and every where.  But, it is always best to stay focused on issues and not the person themselves.  Indeed, there will be individuals who will make it personal--but, then such individuals may not be able to contribute to the topic so, they have to attack the person.  Once wise of such; it doesn't take a brain trust to figure out that there is a personality clash.  It just makes it more difficult to stay on course with the topic at hand.
 
In writing in text, often the reader will project their state of mind, state of mood, state of knowledge into things.  People will jump to conclusions and make things out of words that did not exist with the original poster's 'spirit of intent.'  There are words and or statements that can be read two ways or more; depending on who says them and if there is a previous personal conflict.
 
It is difficult not to post something in anger.  It can be managed though, if someone chooses.  In my case, in my mind's eye--I post as if I was speaking to all of you personally and or in an assembly, such as a presentation or workshop.  I do admit my prejudices and or bias up front, even put on notice I may or may not have a 'history' with an individual.
 
With the lack of physical interaction, people judge us for what words we use.  Certainly, grammar, spelling and such is the last of my concerns but, my focus is on the message the person is attempting to bring to focus and to invite comments, observations and experiences.
 
Although some topics are not as inviting or causes much debate and or never seeing a resolution; so is life.  There are times where there is no correct or false answers and some that have all sorts of additions or conditions.  But, in my mind's eye, it brings the topic to a point of focus as to ask ourselves what it means to us.  If it helps just one person-it is worthwhile in my mind's eye.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:05:37 AM   
Arpig


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If you are sick of being PC, then don't be. Type what you want to and if it offends or upsets somebody, well bugger them, you are not responsible for their happiness or their degree of satisfaction with their collarme experience.


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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:15:28 AM   
degradess


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Hell , yeah.   I am so sick of PC.  Some might call me tactless or anti-social or whatever.  I'm past caring about pleasing everyone.  If they don't like it don't talk to me.  Most of the civility of "society" is just a cover for the more primal stuff underneath anyway.  Let's all take off our masks and be real for once.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:24:11 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Surely a statement like "XXXX squicks me out" is going to be interpreted as a personal comment?


No, but saying "XXXXX is gross" might.  The example you have used makes it about you. The example I used (and is often the way opinions are stated) makes it about anyone who does it.



I understand what you're saying here, I really do.  When we rephrase it as "In my opinion xxx is gross"  or "xxx grosses me out", instead of "xxx is gross", it does sound a little less caustic.  But for heaven's sake, when someone says "ewww liver and onions is gross"  dont we already know that its the opinion of the person making the statement?  Words like "gross" "fun" "cool" "disgusting" are all adjectives that we use to describe something the way it seems to us.  It is impossible for anyone to state as fact that "liver and onions is gross", because the taste of liver and onions is subjective.  So as reasonably intelligent people we automatically know that when someone says "liver and onions is gross", they arent labeling liver and onions, but describing it, as it tastes to them. And I think what Becca is saying is that among reasonably intelligent people there should be no need to say.  "I have no problem with other people who eat liver and onions but I think its gross".   This is not to say that certain things should be put more politely to spare a person's feelings.  Its just to say that when someone states their opinion on something like whether or not xxx is cool or gross, it goes without saying that its merely their opinion....well, in my opinion anyway. lol


No, liver and onions actually IS gross! 

Marie, you make a great point.  In fact you have created an example that makes perfect sense, and I appreciate it!  Maybe it's because liver & onions tends to be universally accepted as gross, that the example works?  Or because eating liver & onions is not a personal and intimate act shared by two or more people, which has meaning in their relationship, and therefore stating that the performance of that act is gross, does not upset them?

I dunno.

But you have made the best argument and analogy so far, and I will remember it the next time someone calls out that a BDSM act is "sick." 

I still believe, however, that if someone wants to be understood, then it behooves them to speak in a way that is most widely understood.  Otherwise, we're all just regurgitating our opinions for our own benefit only ("I'm gonna say this because it's what I think, and if you don't like, agree, or understand me - tough!"), and where's the art of conversation in that?  My position on this is not about political correctness (personally I can't stand most political correctness), but more about wanting to be understood so that the conversation is a sharing of ideas, rather than a bunch of Q & A for the sake of clarification.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:28:34 AM   
angelic


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i personally don't think there is anything wrong with being more careful in this forum of what we say.

i think many times 'we' forget there is another living, breathing, feeling, person the other side of the screen.  For example, i have read some pretty strong things one person has said to another here and i always wonder if those things would be said in the same way to the same person if they were sitting across from each other.  Here, in this forum, we have no idea what the other person is feeling on the other side of that screen.  We can't see their tears, their anger or disappointment.  All we see are their words.  So our words here have to be 'spoken' in a kinder gentler manner.

i know there are thoses out there that are of the opinion, "i don't give a frank fuck"... because it is only words.  As i said above, i doubt those same people would be so cold and callous in real life. 

i think it's ok to be a bit more pc here.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:31:30 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Surely a statement like "XXXX squicks me out" is going to be interpreted as a personal comment?


Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. it'll be labled as a JUDGEMENT!!! 

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:34:21 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Surely a statement like "XXXX squicks me out" is going to be interpreted as a personal comment?


No, but saying "XXXXX is gross" might.  The example you have used makes it about you. The example I used (and is often the way opinions are stated) makes it about anyone who does it.



I understand what you're saying here, I really do.  When we rephrase it as "In my opinion xxx is gross"  or "xxx grosses me out", instead of "xxx is gross", it does sound a little less caustic.  But for heaven's sake, when someone says "ewww liver and onions is gross"  dont we already know that its the opinion of the person making the statement?  Words like "gross" "fun" "cool" "disgusting" are all adjectives that we use to describe something the way it seems to us.  It is impossible for anyone to state as fact that "liver and onions is gross", because the taste of liver and onions is subjective.  So as reasonably intelligent people we automatically know that when someone says "liver and onions is gross", they arent labeling liver and onions, but describing it, as it tastes to them. And I think what Becca is saying is that among reasonably intelligent people there should be no need to say.  "I have no problem with other people who eat liver and onions but I think its gross".   This is not to say that certain things should be put more politely to spare a person's feelings.  Its just to say that when someone states their opinion on something like whether or not xxx is cool or gross, it goes without saying that its merely their opinion....well, in my opinion anyway. lol


No, liver and onions actually IS gross! 

Marie, you make a great point.  In fact you have created an example that makes perfect sense, and I appreciate it!  Maybe it's because liver & onions tends to be universally accepted as gross, that the example works?  Or because eating liver & onions is not a personal and intimate act shared by two or more people, which has meaning in their relationship, and therefore stating that the performance of that act is gross, does not upset them?

I dunno.

But you have made the best argument and analogy so far, and I will remember it the next time someone calls out that a BDSM act is "sick." 

I still believe, however, that if someone wants to be understood, then it behooves them to speak in a way that is most widely understood.  Otherwise, we're all just regurgitating our opinions for our own benefit only ("I'm gonna say this because it's what I think, and if you don't like, agree, or understand me - tough!"), and where's the art of conversation in that?  My position on this is not about political correctness (personally I can't stand most political correctness), but more about wanting to be understood so that the conversation is a sharing of ideas, rather than a bunch of Q & A for the sake of clarification.



Yah...I agree and I think its really best to take in on a "case by case" incidence.  I think we generally use our common sense radar to sort of sense when it's necessary to go the extra mile in an effort to communicate and when it just doenst matter.  I think when genuine understanding is sought after,  people will adjust the way they say things in order to elicit a productive response.  I just think some take it too far and actually want to find a reason to feel insulted when we dont preface everything with a qualifier.  I would also add that I dont see this nearly as rampant in real life as I do on message boards and chatrooms.

And yes, liver and onions is gross and anyone who doesnt agree is just plain wrong.  Lmaoooooo

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:38:21 AM   
Amaros


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At the same time your right to express your opinion may be screwing up the group dynamic and fostering animosity - all I have to do to test this theory is label somebody in a general sort of way - "anti PC'ers are a bunch of self centerd fakes" and watch everybody claiming to be tired of PC  go flame on.

The map is not the territory, you are not what you do - contrary to, and with all due respect to those who "are".  When you catagorize others however, you politicize, when you politicize, you're gonna start shit.

Hate the act, not the actor, or hate the game, not the player, as they say in da hood.

Make the distinction is all, otherwise, it get's personal, whether you mean for that to happen or not - if you do mean it to get personal, then don't whine about it when the feedback gets all up in your face.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/7/2006 9:47:02 AM >

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:39:21 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I would also add that I dont see this nearly as rampant in real life as I do on message boards and chatrooms.

I think that has to do with the eye contact, body language, and vocal inflections when there is face to face contact.  When communicating in the written word only, more careful communication is sometimes required to relay the same point.

(Now, notice I said "I think" rather than stating this as universal fact, lol)

quote:


And yes, liver and onions is gross and anyone who doesnt agree is just plain wrong.  Lmaoooooo


LMAO I so agree.  My brother actually ordered this in a restaurant once.  I looked him square in the eye and said, "You are one sick bastard."

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:45:04 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Ummm, no, you don't pretend to respect everyone.  Looks like you didn't understand what I said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
"Except for a few of the totally weird ones"?  Either you respect everyone or you don't.  You can't have it both ways.


There are actually very few people I respect, some I have no respect for at all, and the rest I treat with respect until they show me which box they fit into...
So yes you can have it both ways...

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:56:08 AM   
angelic


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And there are those here that simply enjoy argument and debate.  So with every thing they post, regardless of the thread, they come across as assholes...
(or drama queens)

< Message edited by angelic -- 10/7/2006 9:57:59 AM >


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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 9:59:18 AM   
LordODiscipline


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LA -
I very often find what you say exact and directly on the money -
 
But, in this instance I agree with Becca...
 
The fact is, by stating "your"opinion, you are not dememaning anyone else. Qualifying it at every step is simply enabling the over sensitive towards continueing their personal issues with life in general...
 
I do not qualify mine in any way because of this... I am not here to make other people "not feel bad" due to their overly incorrect interpretation - I am here to express my opinions, learn about others and their opinions (thereby changing mine where required), and to share ideas.
 
If someone believes I am demeaning/condemning their kink by stating "Anal Insertion of Gummy Worms squicks me" - that is their issue to deal with.
 
I do not have to qualify that beyond making my statement and moving on...
 
~J
And before anyone gets a nit up their nanny: Of course I know that inserting Gummy Worms anally is non-concensual confectionary abuse and I would never do it - it is just for illustration purposes only!

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 10:25:32 AM   
Amaros


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I got kicked off a website once for quoting an anti-PC argument that used the N word, adn the argument, as I've maintained all along, is simply a dispute over common courtesy vs. habitual speech patterns - the argument this guy made was that to expect him to refrain from labelling people he didn't know in slanderous and defamatory terms was "immature" - don't know how he was raised, but inthe world I grew up in, name calling was not considered definitive of mature behavior.

I also got in trouble once for using the word "Negress", which actually has kind of erotic connotations for me, and I wasnt' aware it was on the banned list - "negro" simply being the Latin word for "Black".

For the record, "nigger" is the noun for of the Old English word, "nig", which means to scratch and scrape (to earn a living), i.e., to nig, from whence we also get the word "niggle", to haggle or harrass in a petty way. It's a name that White Appalachian farmers referred to themselves by, and was originally applied to African Americans as a token of solidarity, since in the beginning, Black slaves and poor whites, many indentured servants, were in the same boat - racisim had to be invented in order to head off the increasingly common bi-racial rioting that was occuring in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth centuries. The "peculiar institution" consequently became peculiar indeed, as historically, American slavery was unique in it's need to reduce human beings to the status of inhuman animals, both linguistically and physically, in order to justify itself.

The whole thing is the result of an economic imbalance - there were many more have nots than haves, and the haves were nervous about beign outnumbered - divide and conquer - it worked, and is still working in many cases.

It would be nice if some of these words were defused, this one is largely defused amongst the hip-hop generation, but there are still people around who have witnessed family members arbitraily mob lynched, and worse - it's still an open wound, and it's worst excesses are not beyond the reach of living memory.

As used among African Americans, amongst the older generation, it retains some of it's original meaning, albeit in the perjorative sense, either connoting a base "hustler", or petty selfishness, while in the younger generation, it's mostly a figure of speech.

In short, a little understanding can go a long way - good communication requires some effort, and semiotic sloth is not a virtue, you're just being lazy.

Not every politically incorrect statement is intended to do harm, but you need to find some way of communicating that, it's a simple matter of common courtesy and respect - I'm sorry, everyone is sensitive to being pigeonholed or summarily dismissed, it's a form of social death, and there are real actual stresses involved, that are empirically and demonstratively damaging to mental and physical health - it's a risk we're all gonna have to dance around for a while.

PC disclaimer: Anyone offended by my quote of the N word is entitled to a free shot, spit it out, don't be shy - stressing anyone is not my intent.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/7/2006 10:33:25 AM >

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 10:46:39 AM   
Amaros


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To put it more into the context of the OP, golden showers may seem "gross", and somebody who want's to piss in your mouth, or get theirs pissed in might prompt one to call them "sick" - urine is sterile, of course, and so it really isn't "sick", whereas shitting in somebodies mouth is, and can make you, sick - if you're into that, I reckon being called "sick" might be part of the charm.

In light of that, within a lifestyle that turns a lot of the normal rules of civility on their head by definition, it's really all about making the distinction between those who wish to avoid being labelled for their pecadillios, and those who crave it.

If you don't wanna get colon-reamed and skull fucked twice before breakfast, by all means say so! Throw up of something - be gross! Be disgusting! And hope that doesn't make it an even bigger turn on...

I really don't think you need to be ridgidly PC in a one-on-one where you can control the direction and flow of the conversation.

Rules were made to be broken: but you have to know the rules in order to break them without setting off a shitstorm.


< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/7/2006 10:49:57 AM >

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 10:53:38 AM   
popeye1250


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Amaros, wasn't it Hillary Clinton who first coined the phrase "politically correct" in public?

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 10:59:13 AM   
pinkee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

I thought she was tired of working her Pubococcygenus muscles - squeeze this lemon bitch, I'm thirsty!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

PC is really just about not saying the N word, and very little else, hardly objectionable to any rational person with the slightest vestige of moral integrity, but it's come to identify a whole range of things people find offensive, from the reasonable to the ridiculous.

Personally, I promote e-prime, an NLP thing I think - it arose from linguistics anyway - that simply involves avoiding all forms of the verb "to be" when referring to somebody: i.e., "you are a pervert", vs., "you resemble a pervert at this moment".

A subtle distinction, perhaps but a profound one - an attack on identity is a personal attack, whereas an act is just an act, that need not become politicized in order to express one's personal feelings concerning it.



Amaros, i agree with Your post, both the one quoted here and Your subsequent one.  i remember the civil rights movement....marched, i am proud to say....and completely agreed that use of the "N" word, as well as the word "boy" when referring to a grown man....should be abandoned by every thinking person immediately.  To a degree, it was the arrogance of youth, and a product of the times, but i will say i have never waivered in that respect.
 
However, the "PC" atmosphere which now prevades workplaces, universities and other groups is annoying as hell.  i do not object to the use of the word "his-tory" on the grounds that it s'how diminishes women.  i do not think professors should be abandoning the Classics on the grounds that they were (mostly) written by white Men.  i do not think a full grown adult, in the workplace, should be permittted to complain because one of his/her coworkers emailed an off-color joke or a sexy cartoon.  Yet i know a unionized state employee with civil service protection who lost his job for that very reason.  To say the least, things have gone too far, and this country needs to regain the practice of civility, not timidity due to threat of suit, etc.
 
pinkee 

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 11:37:17 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline
The fact is, by stating "your"opinion, you are not dememaning anyone else. Qualifying it at every step is simply enabling the over sensitive towards continueing their personal issues with life in general...


LOL the idea that *I* am enabling people to remain oversensitive with my posting style is quite amusing.  I think my history speaks directly opposite of this.  I can't tell you how many times I've been told I'm insensitive and just being mean without offering anything of real value in my postings.

I understand that people feel trapped or confined occasionally in having to make caveats in their language.  It would be a great world in which we could all gather round and truly be amused by our differences more than anything.

But since we don't live in that world, I simply find it practical and prudent to be careful (NOT pandering)  in my words as much as possible.  Not that it matters- plenty of people take things personally and in a very defensive manner anyway.  But I continue to do so because I know it's the right thing to do.

I don't do things so that they won't offend, I do them because I feel it helps me communicate my feelings in the best way possible.

And on the liver and onions thing- I completely agree, however my mother loves them!

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/7/2006 11:46:33 AM   
Amaros


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It's a reaction formation to the excesses of the past - not all that long ago, harrassing women was de rigeur  - applying "correction", i.e., beating your wife and children to a bloody pulp on a regular basis to maintain your authority was expected, and I'm not talking about the lifestyle, but in ordinary vanilla marriage - this was true in many cases less than 50 years ago, and there are a lot of people around that still remember it, you might well remember it yourself - reaction formations will typically swing too far in the opposite direction, which I think happened in the late Eighties with PC, and it's currently in the mediation stage, i.e., feeling around to figure out what is acceptable and what isn't.

As attitudes change, so do the rules, it may take a few generations.

Affirmative action, for example, is annoying to many, but for generations African Americcans were actively discouraged from joining the middle class on and equal basis, and hence never formed a healthy middle class culture. Affirmative action makes up for this by seeding a middle class culture amongst African Americans: their children will be bettter able to get higher education and qualify and compete for for jobs on an equal basis, consolidating these gains, until eventually there will be no more need to have blanket affirmative action, it can be adjusted and fine tuned to fit specific circumstances. It might take three or four generations or more to accomplish this, but each generation should be more self sufficient than than the last, and it doesn't have the same potential for becoming an open ended entitlement like welfare became - it operates according to market dynamics, in order to mediate past market distortions.

As for those who feel persecuted, no middle class White kid with the resources to attend University  has been flatly denied this opportunity - they may have to wait a year or go to another college is all - you might more legitimately gripe about the back corridor admissions of the trust fund babies of alumini who typically take precedence over everybody, affirmative action or otherwise, with grades that wouldn't get them into beauty college, and half of whom end up crack skels or heroin addicts.

It's not about equality, it's about equality of opportunity, and the very same argument can and does apply to women. Institutions might be slower to react, and in fact, in publicly supported institutions, or those accredited by the government, which is a publically funded institution, like colleges and universities, necessarily have to take the lead in mediating these predjudices via language and behavior - public institutions like the government expressly derive their authority through representing and protecting the less powerful from predation by the physically or socially more powerful.

Annoying, yes, but the alternative may be, and has been, much worse than you might imagine - at one time women were thrown in prision for having children out of wedlock, married women were littel more than domestic slaves, animals bred literally to death and treated with cold contempt - while a divorced woman had little option but to continue serving as a domestic slave for sustenance wages, or becoming prostitute to survive.

That might sound like a lot of fun to some people in here, but the difference is, you have options that they didn't, whether you choose to exercise them or not, and PC is part of the reason you have those options.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/7/2006 11:58:36 AM >

(in reply to pinkee)
Profile   Post #: 60
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