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RE: Sick of PC - 10/8/2006 8:30:50 PM   
Iskander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aine

It's understandably odd for those of you that do not live and have not lived in America.  While you may consider it as apointof segregation, and while some may mean it, namely sects of people like the KKK, most of us do NOT  take offense to it.  Isn't that what really matters here?

We're extremely multi-cultural and we're proud of that.  We celebrate our heritages.  I celebrate the fact that I come from Irish lineage.  And Italian lineage.  It's not a way to separate ourselves, it's a way to embrace both things, that we were born in America, but come from different places and we try to share that with others.



I didn't mean to offend with my post, segregation was maybe the wrong word, I know it's (mostly) not used to offend or keep a section of the population in a 'second class citizen' state of being...
I've just always been puzzled by this use, even 'irish-american'.. We're pretty big on multicultural society too, (we have the largest greek community outside of athens right here in melbourne). I've just found here people would just refere to themselves as greek, or irish or martian, there is no need for the '-australian' qualifier to know that they are also proud to be aussies...
At what point/generation does one draw the line? like someone 5th generation american born, who's never had any contact with the country of origin and it's culture are they still say 'african american'?

I'm not knocking the habit, just trying to understand the hows and why's of something that is uniquely american...

Iskander...



(in reply to Aine)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Sick of PC - 10/8/2006 9:03:42 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aine

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It was called "Ice Age Columbus:  Who were the first Americans?"

I watched the first hour.  Basically they were saying that there is evidence that people from now middle Europe crossed over into now East coast/Mid Atlantic around 17,000 years ago, making people habiting the Americas about 5,000 years earlier than previously thought (the ones who came from now Asia into now Canada/West coast).




I saw a show similar to that some years ago and they found after taking DNA samples from ancient bones thousands of years old that about 40% of the DNA samples had Celtic/Irish DNA in them.
Seems the Irish really got around!
Listen to some Native/American flute music then listen to some Irish flute music.
Same for the drum/ bodhrein.


Plus there are plenty of people that may confuse current Irish folkrock for current American Country music.  Heck, my boyfriend did.  It's great speculation that that is where country got some of it's roots.



Aine, that's exactly where "Country" music's roots are from!
Scots/Irish music.
And if you look at a lot of the Surnames in the South they're Scots/Irish.
So I guess after those shows us people of Irish lineage can now call ourselves "Native Americans."
DNA doesn't lie! They use it as irrefutable evidence in a court of law.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Sick of PC - 10/8/2006 9:21:43 PM   
becca333


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Read 'The Seven Daughters of Eve' - using mitochondrial DNA they can track everyone back to the source.  We're all related, so what does it matter what branch of the family got somewhere first?

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Sick of PC - 10/8/2006 9:34:27 PM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aine

It's understandably odd for those of you that do not live and have not lived in America.  While you may consider it as apointof segregation, and while some may mean it, namely sects of people like the KKK, most of us do NOT  take offense to it.  Isn't that what really matters here?

We're extremely multi-cultural and we're proud of that.  We celebrate our heritages.  I celebrate the fact that I come from Irish lineage.  And Italian lineage.  It's not a way to separate ourselves, it's a way to embrace both things, that we were born in America, but come from different places and we try to share that with others.



I didn't mean to offend with my post, segregation was maybe the wrong word, I know it's (mostly) not used to offend or keep a section of the population in a 'second class citizen' state of being...
I've just always been puzzled by this use, even 'irish-american'.. We're pretty big on multicultural society too, (we have the largest greek community outside of athens right here in melbourne). I've just found here people would just refere to themselves as greek, or irish or martian, there is no need for the '-australian' qualifier to know that they are also proud to be aussies...
At what point/generation does one draw the line? like someone 5th generation american born, who's never had any contact with the country of origin and it's culture are they still say 'african american'?

I'm not knocking the habit, just trying to understand the hows and why's of something that is uniquely american...

Iskander...



My question is this:

Do they naturally FIRST call themselves Aussies?

Or by their natural heritage?

I certainly don't go around calling myself an Irish American before I call myself an American.  It was just a point lol


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/8/2006 9:45:02 PM   
spanklette


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~fast reply~
 
I realize that this is a little off topic, but for those interested...there is a documentary called "The N Word". It's a very informative docuamentary for those interested in multiple views of the way that the word has morphed into a slang term.
 
Okay, back to the PC topic. Sorry for the interruption.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/8/2006 9:54:53 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander
I'm not knocking the habit, just trying to understand the hows and why's of something that is uniquely american...

Iskander...

It really is just that- an American cultural quirk.  Probably partially due to how the society and overall culture has been shaped over the past 300 years and its overall present identity built on the idea of total immigration to somehow make an amalgam of international cultures who feel tightly bound to their "new world."

It is "very American" to highly value being "American."

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/8/2006 10:15:23 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Read 'The Seven Daughters of Eve' - using mitochondrial DNA they can track everyone back to the source.  We're all related, so what does it matter what branch of the family got somewhere first?


Oh? If that's the case where do I go to get some of that "Affirmative Action?"

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/8/2006 10:38:57 PM   
becca333


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Another country?

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 8:14:29 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander
I'm not knocking the habit, just trying to understand the hows and why's of something that is uniquely american...

Iskander...

It really is just that- an American cultural quirk.  Probably partially due to how the society and overall culture has been shaped over the past 300 years and its overall present identity built on the idea of total immigration to somehow make an amalgam of international cultures who feel tightly bound to their "new world."

It is "very American" to highly value being "American."


Good answer, I think, cultural diversity, as opposed to racial identity is just that: it's a way of preserving cultural identity in homogenizing culture, which happens to be predominantly English/German - there are a lot of Germanic undertones to the dominant culture, a certian chauvinistic jingoism, unfortunately happens to be part of both English and German cultures.

Maintaining cultural identities, and preserving culturla diversity within the dominant culture, can help mediate some of the underlying tensions, and promote tolerance and acceptance - if the Irish or Scotch can preserve the aspects of their culture that they cherish, so can the Native Americans, and that allows some of those cultural values that migh otherwise vanish without trace, to percolate into the common culture.

It's really not much different than Europeans, it's just that our cultural borders are more fluid: i.e., there is a distinction between Serbs and Germans, and Afrikaner connotes a distinction between White South Africans and Blacks, or at least is seems so to me, but I'm no expert.

There are some distinct demarkations in terms of neighborhoods in larger cities here, but it would be hard to find a particular state, or even city where one culture predominates over another in any highly visible way - save perhaps Texas, which has a very distinctive Anglo-Saxon/Germanic culture - (an Anglo Saxon tendency to lump together in under almost slumlike conditions, even when surrounded by open land, and a punitive, almost sadistic legal culture, reminicent of both Anglo-Saxon medival despotism and Teutonic strictness) but even that has been somewhat mediated in recent decades, and a certian degree of liberalism is evident even in some smaller communities - liek everybody else they have eperienced the demographic changes brought about by proffessional migration from urban to rural areas.

Minnesota is full of Swedes and Norwegians (where my paternal immigrant ancestors are from), California full of Oakie refugees form the dust bowl (Anglo-Saxon, mixed), etc., but even in these places, there is a vibrant cultural diveristy openly evident.

In other words, our divsions tend to be cultural rather than geographic - ulike the French, who are from France, the Swedes, who are from Sweden, etc, to say in America you are from Chicago for example, conveys a certian amount of information about your cultural identity, in terms of how Chicagoans act (tough, don't take any shit, but generlaly freindly, or at least neutral - think Sam Spade), or New York (pushy, verbal), but nothing really about your subculture: a Black man from Chicago doesn't act significantly different from a White guy from Chicago, with minor deviations, i.e., either might be yuppies, or hood rats, republican or democrat, independent, etc., which are still more layers of identity.

So if you hyphenate, you are simply adding a bit of extra information concerning your cultural identity, which mostly might boil down to whether you prefer lefsa, motza, or tortillas, and it's not all that common to hear and individual hyphenate; it's generally reserved for groups, and group activities: Irish-American parades, etc. - come to think of it, I've rarely head anybody describe themselves as X-American, it's usually an abstraction used in the third person.

Is that uncomplicated enough for you Iskander? Lol.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 8:35:42 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I DID look up the etymology in OED.  It says this:

quote:

Prob. an alteration of NEGER n., after classical Latin niger (see NIGER n.1); cf. earlier NIGRO n., NIGRITE n.1 Cf. post-classical Latin niger black person (1582 in a Spanish colonial source). Cf. also Swedish niger (1758), prob. a borrowing from English (although this may perh. represent a borrowing of NEGER n.).


Then it lists a bunch of examples, and goes on to say:

quote:

For coincidence of the word in some dialects with NIGGARD n. cf. forms and etymological note s.v.


Did you get that?  COINCIDENCE?


As for LOD's question about "Negroid": that's a much later word.  "Negro" entered the English language from Spanish in the sixteenth century; "Negroid" was derived from it, and isn't attested before 1844.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

As for the etymology, look it up in the OED.



Did you look up "nig"? Niggard is another derivitive, consistent with the connotations of hardscrabble stinginess, it's a good word, applies to republicans.

On the other hand, the Niger river (Portugese, the meaning of which is unclear, though it does connote to "dark", and perhaps was named in reference to the local inhabitants) was a location very much central to the slave trade, and it may well be that both etymologies are correct. My take on it was the result of cultural anthropolgy of the Appalachians, based on oral rather than written traditions, and I'm sorry, I can't cite it, it's been too long.

Similarly, it sounds close to Negro - ever see the Lenny Bruce bit about Lyndon Johnson trying to pronounce negro? And there is no question the word been heavily syncretized, and taken on a lot of idiomatic baggage - to the point that it's pretty much moot what it might have originally meant.

All I know is that if I use it, I risk using it in the presence of one whose Grandfather might have been lynched for not taking his hat off in front of a White man, Great Grandmother branded, beaten, bred, traded, etc., and I might be dredging up memories that perhaps are better left out of polite conversation.

Again, it's never caused me any significant problems interms of communication to avoid it's usuage.

The other problem is, as some people argue, "it's just a word", and hearing it occasionally won't hurt you - but if everybody starts saying it again, like the Magpies they are, it rapidly becomes a din, and what may be charmingly straightforeward in a specific context, becomes Procrustrian oppression to anyone sensitive to it.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/9/2006 8:53:31 AM >

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 8:48:52 AM   
Amaros


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Joined: 7/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika

I found this statement comical for many reasons. Who was here 1st? Wasn't it the Native Americans, so by your own statement UNLESS your Native American your not a REAL American? 


I watched a show on the Discovery channel last night, and it appears that Europeans crossed an ice bridge into North America long before the Asians crossed the land bridge, and were assimilated into that later wave of migration - there are apparently DNA markers in Native Americans that are also found in European populations.

I'd hate to see that turn ugly in a political sense: what it means is that yes, we are all brothers and sisters.

It seems to me, you and me,
Are chasing something.
What it is does anybody here want to know?
It seems to you, you and me,
Are forgetting something,
When love is so easily forgotten.
And if I pick you up, will you drag me down?
If I run to you, will you turn around?

Rise and fall turn the wheel 'cause all life
Is really just a circle.

Big Head Todd and the Monsters


I guess my point wasn't along these lines though, if it's been proved, then it kind of backs up my point in the first place.  To the one  who responded to me:

I never said one thing about American Indians.  Hell, I can definitely see how they could be implied, as that is the point that has been implied for generations, I will take what Amaros has said and elaborate more on my original point.

I'm Irish American.  I'm of Irish blood, I'm second generation IrishAmerican.  But are the Irish pure blood?  Nope.  I've got European blood in me too.  How many of us are pure of blood?  How many of the humans are or ever were pure blood?  We're still finding out who was where first.  I never once said I knew who was where first, so leave the American Indians out of it.

Thanks.



I'm assuming you're addressing Pheonix and Nika along with me - if you were born here, you're native, the rest is conversation. The Dine (Navajos), have earned their place in the dominant culture with blood, Dine windtalkers saved countless live in WWII, and it's hard to find a Dine who hasn't served in the Marines - no doubt true for all NA tribes.

As for the European migration, it's mostly  a matter of circumstance: the ice bridge was the result of glaciation, and appeared first; the land bridge to Asia appeared later on as the glaciers retreated, and has nothing to do with how much ambition anybody may or may not have possessed, and they were all on pretty much the same level technologically and culturally.

There is also mounting evidence that Africans colonized South and Central America from the sea before everybody else, also evidence that the Chinese might have landed from time to time, as well as the Phonecians, etc.

Those people got around: HG (hunter gatherer) culture is based on mobility, and it's the mobility stressor that largely drove human evolution under rapidly changing climatic conditions, aeons before these migrations took place.

(in reply to Aine)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 8:59:57 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I DID look up the etymology in OED.  It says this:

quote:

Prob. an alteration of NEGER n., after classical Latin niger (see NIGER n.1); cf. earlier NIGRO n., NIGRITE n.1 Cf. post-classical Latin niger black person (1582 in a Spanish colonial source). Cf. also Swedish niger (1758), prob. a borrowing from English (although this may perh. represent a borrowing of NEGER n.).


Then it lists a bunch of examples, and goes on to say:

quote:

For coincidence of the word in some dialects with NIGGARD n. cf. forms and etymological note s.v.


Did you get that?  COINCIDENCE?


As for LOD's question about "Negroid": that's a much later word.  "Negro" entered the English language from Spanish in the sixteenth century; "Negroid" was derived from it, and isn't attested before 1844.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

As for the etymology, look it up in the OED.



Did you look up "nig"? Niggard is another derivitive, consistent with the connotations of hardscrabble stinginess, ungenerous. It's a good word, applies to republicans.

On the other hand, the Niger river (Portugese, the meaning of which is unclear, though it does connote to "dark", and perhaps was named in reference to the local inhabitants) was a location very much central to the slave trade, and it may well be that both etymologies are correct. My take on it was the result of cultural anthropolgy of the Appalachians, based on oral rather than written traditions, and I'm sorry, I can't cite it, it's been too long.

Similarly, it sounds close to Negro - ever see the Lenny Bruce bit about Lyndon Johnson trying to pronounce negro? And there is no question the word been heavily syncretized, and taken on a lot of idiomatic baggage - to the point that it's pretty much moot what it might have originally meant. At some point, it came to apply specifically to dark skinned people of African extraction - no pun intended.

If I could become darker skinned through genetic engineering (GE), I would - it's stylish, and it  goes with everything.

All I know is that if I use it, I risk using it in the presence of one whose Grandfather might have been lynched for not taking his hat off in front of a White man, Great Grandmother branded, beaten, bred, traded, etc., and I might be dredging up memories that perhaps are better left out of polite conversation.

Again, it's never caused me any significant problems interms of communication to avoid it's usuage.

The other problem is, as some people argue, "it's just a word", and hearing it occasionally won't hurt you - but if everybody starts saying it again, like the Magpies they are, it rapidly becomes a din, and what may be charmingly straightforeward in a specific context, becomes Procrustrian oppression to anyone sensitive to it.



< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/9/2006 9:01:01 AM >

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 10:05:52 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Why did you feel the need to post this twice?

Anyway, if you had read what I said, you would have seen that the similarity with the words "nig" and "niggard" is a COINCIDENCE.

Maybe you can look up "coincidence" while you're looking up "nig."

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 10:32:54 AM   
Aine


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Amaros

I wasn't in any way trying to disagree with you on any point.  I may not be eloquent in my posts, and I admit I'm not always clear, but I was -agreeing- with what you were saying.  I may not have the words you do to express it, but that was my point in the first place.  You just have a better way of saying it.


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 11:25:39 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Why did you feel the need to post this twice?

Anyway, if you had read what I said, you would have seen that the similarity with the words "nig" and "niggard" is a COINCIDENCE.

Maybe you can look up "coincidence" while you're looking up "nig."


Not sure why I posted twice, it was unintentional, I'll delete one - oops, too late.

I don't wish to argue the point further, untill I can do some real research on it, have it your way, I stand by my original post, with the qualifications stated in the follow up. Your argument has, as yet, failed to convince me otherwise. There sometimes very large distinctions between oral and written histories - written histories are full of errors and mistranslations, whereas original meanings are often retianed in oral traditions for ludicrously interminable stretches of time. "No" is Vedic, and it meant no long before the written word was invented.


< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/9/2006 11:28:31 AM >

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 12:56:45 PM   
popeye1250


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Amaros, wouldn't donating used underware and moldy shower curtains to charity and taking a tax deduction for said items be considered "niggardly?"

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 1:01:11 PM   
Amaros


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Hey, you can use them for paint rags and drop cloths - ewww.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 1:06:59 PM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aine

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It was called "Ice Age Columbus:  Who were the first Americans?"

I watched the first hour.  Basically they were saying that there is evidence that people from now middle Europe crossed over into now East coast/Mid Atlantic around 17,000 years ago, making people habiting the Americas about 5,000 years earlier than previously thought (the ones who came from now Asia into now Canada/West coast).




I saw a show similar to that some years ago and they found after taking DNA samples from ancient bones thousands of years old that about 40% of the DNA samples had Celtic/Irish DNA in them.
Seems the Irish really got around!
Listen to some Native/American flute music then listen to some Irish flute music.
Same for the drum/ bodhrein.


Plus there are plenty of people that may confuse current Irish folkrock for current American Country music.  Heck, my boyfriend did.  It's great speculation that that is where country got some of it's roots.



Aine, that's exactly where "Country" music's roots are from!
Scots/Irish music.
And if you look at a lot of the Surnames in the South they're Scots/Irish.
So I guess after those shows us people of Irish lineage can now call ourselves "Native Americans."
DNA doesn't lie! They use it as irrefutable evidence in a court of law.


The blues and country both pretty much seem to derive from Appalachian folk music, mixed with other popular musical forms - both reduce composition to the basic I-IV-V formula - the tonic, sub-dominant and dominant, the intervals with the strongest resolutions.

Country typically accentuates the sixth tone, Blues the flattened Seventh: otherwise they are both nearly identical compositionally and even thematically.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 1:56:51 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Yeah, of course.  No "argument" is ever going to convince you, because you're convinced of what you're saying, even if no one else in the world accepts it.  But at least don't ask people to look up etymologies in OED when those same etymologies refute what you're trying to say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

I don't wish to argue the point further, untill I can do some real research on it, have it your way, I stand by my original post, with the qualifications stated in the follow up. Your argument has, as yet, failed to convince me otherwise.

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RE: Sick of PC - 10/9/2006 3:43:13 PM   
redpetals


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I  don't watch much tv.
I get my info from books or I do my own research on this internet.
Before this I used the library.
Lots of times I even double check book sources .
I have heard mistakes made on the History channel.
So it's nice to see that you have "established" something as fact.


_____________________________

Love is a verb.

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