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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 9:16:00 AM   
Bearlee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee
When the abuse keeps happening, time after time; it's time to step back and ask yourself 'what am I doing wrong'.



  I couldn't agree more!!!

(in reply to Tikkiee)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 9:20:43 AM   
darkinshadows


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I really wanted to support cassandra here really.
 
I understand that there are many, many factors that can contribute to people who end up in repeating abusive relationships.  However, cassandra is correct that it is down to personal responsibility... no matter what occurs in the past.  It is up to the individual to take control of their life and their situation - no amount of advice or 'protection' offered is going to change that.
The only person to change, is the person themself.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 9:23:12 AM   
Iskander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
People with emotional trauma are usually not able to see reality for what it is. People with radical chemical imbalance (depression, etc ...) usually don't know they have it.



Thats what medical PROFESSIONALS are for, unskilled interference (yes thats what it is) can be equally harmful...

Iskander..


(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 9:37:28 AM   
caitlyn


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General response ...
 
'Physician help thyself', is a cruel notion. The faster we are rid of it, the faster a clearer understanding will manifest.
 
That's my last two cents ... peace all.

(in reply to Iskander)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 9:53:31 AM   
Iskander


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I didn't say anything about help thyself, I was saying that people with mental issues, or trauma need professional help..
Unless you are able to distinguish between PTSD, the 2 types of bipolar, major depression, manic depression, drug dependance, delusional disorder, OCD, DPD etc... AND know how each should be 'treated' then the best and only advice you can safely give is 'seek professional help.. Simple really...

And what clearer understanding will manifest? about what exactly?

Iskander...


(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 10:31:46 AM   
Tikkiee


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I can understand Caitlyn's position on this; so with resepct to her, I will agree to disagree

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 11:01:56 AM   
caitlyn


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Rock on, fellow Texas girly!

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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 11:46:21 AM   
Iskander


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I understand her questions too.. even though they seem more like statements as she already knows the answers and seems pretty set on keeping those answers...

First question, does the 'lifestyle' attract abusers?
Well everyone agrees yes...

Second question, is it our responsibility?
Feelings are mixed here, but the majority said 'ultimately no'..

So then she raises the issue of mental capability or the lack thereof, should such people be helped?
As I mentioned, yes they should be helped, but in a professional capacity, a fragile mind can just as easily 'snap' from poor help as it can from abuse, so end results can be the same, a person who's more fukked up than when they started... I've seen it happen often enough.. And when it all goes horribly wrong, more often than not the person that tried to help ends up with feelings of guilt..
So tell me who gains from all this 'do-gooding'?

By all means if someone feels the need to do something then do it, but don't make it everyones issue by saying that 'our lifestyle' gives abusers validation and a place to 'hide', thats just crap...

Iskander...


(in reply to Tikkiee)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 11:54:09 AM   
Tikkiee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander

I understand her questions too.. even though they seem more like statements as she already knows the answers and seems pretty set on keeping those answers...

First question, does the 'lifestyle' attract abusers?
Well everyone agrees yes...

Second question, is it our responsibility?
Feelings are mixed here, but the majority said 'ultimately no'..

So then she raises the issue of mental capability or the lack thereof, should such people be helped?
As I mentioned, yes they should be helped, but in a professional capacity, a fragile mind can just as easily 'snap' from poor help as it can from abuse, so end results can be the same, a person who's more fukked up than when they started... I've seen it happen often enough.. And when it all goes horribly wrong, more often than not the person that tried to help ends up with feelings of guilt..
So tell me who gains from all this 'do-gooding'?

By all means if someone feels the need to do something then do it, but don't make it everyones issue by saying that 'our lifestyle' gives abusers validation and a place to 'hide', thats just crap...

Iskander...



Iskander. Would you like to know what attracted ME to this? Pain. I was dead inside, and the pain allowed me to know that I was still alive. The more pain, the more alive I felt.
 
It is only recently ( in the past several months ) that I have come to realize that I don't need physical pain to feel alive. I did not come to this conclusion on my own. Between therapy, and some extremely patient and loving people, I have come to realize that my desire for pain was nothing more than an attempt to hide from that which brought me there.
 
So yes, I understand where Caitlyn is coming from; and though I may not agree with it, I can respect her outlook on it because I have been on both sides

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 12:17:45 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRadiance

This is a companion thread to the last one I posted about what is considered sick.
 
My curiosity lies as to what can a Dominant request of a sub- that is "outside" of the realm of BDSM?  As long as the Dominant gives the order- isn't it a BDSM activity?

 
Not necessarily.   Unless you've entered into a negotiated Master/slave relationship with no hard limits, there's always a point at which Dominant says "Do it" and the submissive says "Not likely".  It can be a form of BDSM play OR it might be something new within the D/s relationship OR it might be the dominant deciding that he is going to "take control" of an aspect of her life that has been off-limits.  At all times, like it or not, the submissive is still responsible for her own well-being, no matter what has been promised/negotiated/etc..  The submissive is supposed to be an adult.  I know there are those who wish to abdicate any responsibility but those who do so without ever retaining the sense to look out for their own safety and well-being have a problem.  Being a submissive and yielding control does not mean abdication of preservation of self.  MOO

 
quote:

I also want to clarify my personal position here- so that I can be properly flamed and crucified-

It is my position that to turn a blind eye to something that is potentially harmful, illegal and dangerous- whether or not it is between consenting adults- especially when one of those adults may have no alternative- is the same in my mind's eye to ignoring/condoning child abuse as "the way those people do it".

 
Again, there is always an alternative.  As someone noted, someone's ways are going to be noted along the way.  Deviations from those ways should be noted and considered.  Living the life of D/s and BDSM is one thing...not being mature enough to look at each thing along the way responsibly...yes, even more so than those involved in so-called vanilla relationships, given the easier capacity for play to slip into abuse...is another.  Yeah, there are things I just don't get.  But stepping into a vanilla situation where abuse is clearly going on and stepping into a D/s BDSM scene where the lines aren't as clear is two different things.  And at what point do we decide that something is sick?  There are people on here who wear diapers and soil them...my opinion?  Ewwwwwwwwwwww.  There are people on here who cut to bleed another...my opinion?  Unhealthy and ewwwwwwwwwwwww.  There are people on here who get into scat play...my opinion?  Stinks, unhealthy, and ewwwwwwwwwwww.  But you know what?  Those are my opinions. 
Beating someone such that they are left crippled?  Yeah, that's wrong.  Sadly though...unless you know what has been negotiated and are close to the situation...you don't know until the beating is over that it is going to happen.
 
quote:

I know I am in a minority here, but I must wonder if BDSM is  about bonding of the dominant to the submissive, or a "lifestyle" that houses and validates abusers and deviants, and gives them affirmation and acceptance no matter what they may do.

 
D/s and BDSM are two different things.  There are plenty that practice D/s with no physical BDSM involved.  Is there emotional abuse going on in some of these relationships?  Most likely.  Can you stop it?  Maybe by being a friend and helping the abused one get help.  Do you know how difficult that is to do with vanilla couples, let alone D/s couples?  As for BDSM play...the perverts and abusers and deviants that you speak of are of a matter of degree.  Many in the vanilla world look at what we do...those "normal" BDSM players among us...and consider us "sick abusers, perverts and deviants"; my ex is one who does.  Even if you find one that everyone considers outside the norm, how are you going to police them other than doing what people do in the vanilla world and turn them into the cops?

 
quote:

Yes, it is up to us as individuals to judge what is best for us and ours. However, I do not seek out the company of, nor do I condone the activities of those who have no concern for the welfare of those in their charge.
  

 
Nor do I.  However, what you see as no concern for the welfare of those in their charge is always your own perception.  And until the day when I see something other than abuse as described by the authors such as Devon and Miller and Wiseman, et. al...I am not going to step in and declare myself to be judge of what they do.  Have an opinion about it, as noted above?  Sure.  And when my opinion says "that is clearly recognizable abuse" or "that is clearly dangerous and harmful", then I will speak up.  And probably be slapped down.  But in this area, I agree with you...we all have a point at which we will say something.

 
quote:

 
Does anyone besides me feel that this type of total acceptance and all-inclusion lures predators to the lifestyle? 

 
No more so than any other area of life...just more noticeable due to the publicity attached to some spectacular cases which...if you look closely enough...you will see that the predators used BDSM as a means to an end for themselves alone, not as an open, chosen way of practice in their life.

 
quote:

Please- I am not attacking anyone here, so please try not to take this post as a personal affront.

 
I didn't.  Hope you don't.

 
 
 
 
 

(in reply to WhiteRadiance)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 12:25:41 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander
I understand her questions too.. even though they seem more like statements as she already knows the answers and seems pretty set on keeping those answers...


With respect ... you are widening my meaning well past it's intent ... for example, I never asked a single question, so I have no idea how you understand questions I never asked.
 
I responded to a specific statement by Cassandra, with a statement of my own.
 
She and I don't agree ... and why should we? She has her experience and I have mine. She articulated her scenario, and they are quite different than mine. That we don't agree, is completely logical and to be expected ... considering that our experiences were not the same, why should we be expected to have the same opinions about them.
 
She takes ownership of her past difficulties, and I admire her for it. In my case, understanding that matters were beyond my control, and that I wasn't to blame, was the right path. Cassandra's method would not have worked for me, nor most likely would mine have worked for her ... which is amazingly, why we don't agree.
 
Some will relate to her path, which I would bet, is the reason she posted in the first place ... ditto for me - some will relate to mine, which drove my response.
 
In truth, it is better that we don't agree, as this gives more options.

(in reply to Iskander)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 12:29:06 PM   
raiken


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

I'm with you on this.  The Feeder/Feedee fetish comes to mind.


Along with the enablers and co-dependants, the perpetual victim mentality...the abusers who turn on the cloaking device...
 
Then there are the healthy feeders and feedees...fetish or no...those who mutually benefit and find mutual fulfillment.
 
There are the light and dark sides to every single activity that includes humanity...we have it all and then some.
 
i believe it is all about the perspective, and what life experiences that have led one to their current vantage point.


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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 1:03:00 PM   
juliaoceania


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I agree with both of you.. and yes that is possible

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 4:53:16 PM   
amlonging


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My curiosity lies as to what can a Dominant request of a sub- that is "outside" of the realm of BDSM?  As long as the Dominant gives the order- isn't it a BDSM activity?


I would like to respond to this statement.
In my opinion a D/s relationship would be outside the BDSM realm, which I consider the kink of a D/s relationship.
If the Dom gives me an order to guy grocerioes...He aint going with me this time....does that give me the right to shop at Victoria secrets for that new bra I have been begging for?  NO!
This is totally outside of BDSM, but still within the D/s control and obedience relationship I am bound to. 
I think we confuse BDSM with D/s.

(in reply to WhiteRadiance)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 7:23:02 PM   
WhiteRadiance


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I am not overly concerned about potential abuse to submissives who lay themselves in the hands of whomever happens to come along.  I lack sympathy for those who continue to make poor choices. 
 
What I REALLY detest- is the fact that in this "lifestyle"-and particularly on these boards-people defend the toothless, dirty, drug addicted, idiot losers, the shit-rollers, puke-drinkers, diaper-wearers, or those who expect their subs to shit in front of people of suck off xxx.. all of this is acceptable behavior!  So these folk- who are moral degenerates, IMO~~ are accepted as "normal and good" in these groups and circles.  This all-inclusive attitude will be the downfall of the "lifestyle".  I do not go to parties to watch someone take a dump.  I am not a Mistress to mentally warp my sub. To say it isn't done- and cannot be done, is incorrect. 
 
Why do you think there are dungeon monitors at play parties, people??
 
I would sincerely LOVE to see a group of KINKY AS HELL people who had some sort of idea what discrimination is- and that it CAN actually be a GOOD thing. Yes- an elite group of kinky people.. LMAO.
 
(hearing it now- "who's to say what is elite?"  "who would determine which activity would be acceptable or not?")
 
Three people with some sense would sit down and figure it out. ;)
 
 
Thank you all for your input. :) 
 

_____________________________

Staci

The drop of rain makes a hole in a stone not by violence, but by often falling.



(in reply to amlonging)
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RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 7:34:12 PM   
Iskander


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Oops.. looks like I got you and the OP mixed up... Sorry bout that.. *wipes egg off face*

Though part of my response and IMO the most important part did stem from a statement you made regarding mental issues...
As you say, what works for one person, doesn't work for another, which is exactly the reason someone unskilled trying to help can do more harm than good sometimes...

This wasn't aimed at you either, you did bring up a very good point with it, I (poorly) used it to point out to the OP why sometimes these abuse situations are beyond our ability to fix... You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped...

Appologies again for the mix up...

Iskander...



(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 8:02:59 PM   
Iskander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRadiance
What I REALLY detest- is the fact that in this "lifestyle"-and particularly on these boards-people defend the toothless, dirty, drug addicted, idiot losers, the shit-rollers, puke-drinkers, diaper-wearers, or those who expect their subs to shit in front of people of suck off xxx.. all of this is acceptable behavior!  So these folk- who are moral degenerates, IMO~~ are accepted as "normal and good" in these groups and circles.  This all-inclusive attitude will be the downfall of the "lifestyle".  I do not go to parties to watch someone take a dump.  I am not a Mistress to mentally warp my sub. To say it isn't done- and cannot be done, is incorrect.


Did someone take a dump in your coffee? Geez...
I watched 'The notorious Betty Page" last night, interestingly in the court scene they were saying the exact same things about her pretty tame bondage shoots as you are spouting now...

Who gives a shit if someone wants to wear diapers etc?! Get off your high horse, morals are totally subjective..
If someone takes a dump at a party they leave it there, why do you insist on taking it home and rubbing our noses in it?

Stop talking about 'the lifestyle' as if it's something special and sacred... There is no one 'lifestyle'.. mine is not the same as yours, or anyone elses.. and you know what... if there was a downfall of this so called 'lifestyle', I would still continue to do what I do.. Just like some people collect butterflies, some collect nazi memorabilia and others collect snowglobes, but none of them collect because others do or don't...

I think you should just be more careful who you hang out with...

Iskander...


(in reply to WhiteRadiance)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 8:25:50 PM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRadiance

What I REALLY detest- is the fact that in this "lifestyle"-and particularly on these boards-people defend the toothless, dirty, drug addicted, idiot losers, the shit-rollers, puke-drinkers, diaper-wearers, or those who expect their subs to shit in front of people of suck off xxx.. all of this is acceptable behavior!  So these folk- who are moral degenerates, IMO~~ are accepted as "normal and good" in these groups and circles.  This all-inclusive attitude will be the downfall of the "lifestyle".  I do not go to parties to watch someone take a dump.  I am not a Mistress to mentally warp my sub. To say it isn't done- and cannot be done, is incorrect. 
 
Why do you think there are dungeon monitors at play parties, people??
 
I would sincerely LOVE to see a group of KINKY AS HELL people who had some sort of idea what discrimination is- and that it CAN actually be a GOOD thing. Yes- an elite group of kinky people.. LMAO.
 
(hearing it now- "who's to say what is elite?"  "who would determine which activity would be acceptable or not?")
 
Three people with some sense would sit down and figure it out. ;)
 
 
Thank you all for your input. :) 
 


Since when does being toothless mean you're a bad person?  Could just mean you're old and need dentures.

Dirty as in .....like roll around in the mud, dirty?  Because most of us are in some way considered "dirty" for our tastes.  That means you too, hun.

Drug addiction....That's a whole other thing altogether.  Addiction and use are two different things.  Which has already been discussed in correlation to BDSM activities in other threads.  And since when is Drug Addiction automatically related to BDSM?  I sure as h-e-doublehockeysticks don't think so.

Shit-rollers....does that go hand in hand with the dirty comment? Again,while it's your opinion, and you're more than welcome to it, scat play while some into BDSM are into it, it's not necessarily a strictly BDSM activity, more of just a fetish.

Puke drinking.....now that is something I've NEVER heard in correlation to BDSM. And I hope I never do.  That just fucking squicks me out.  That and the fact that I've spent the last day puking my guts out kinda puts the idea of puking WAY down on the list of fun activities.  Let alone drinking it.  I'm with ya there that it's gross, but again it's NOT a BDSM activity by definition.  I've seen vids of guys drinking it for money at parties.  A BDSM party perhaps? Nope, just your average frat function.

And as for the shitting in front of other people, and perhaps even sucking people off in the process....it's all personal preference, and maybe I'm being a positive polly on this one, but I would think that most anyone that didn't agree to this and discuss it before hand would certainly speak up for themselves and say No Effin Way Dude!  And if they don't, shame on them for compromising their self and their comfort levels.  And on the other hand.....some people enjoy doing that kind of stuff.  You may think it's gross, which is fine, it's not my cup of tea either, but going on what you said in your OP...you don't want to come off like you're attacking people, in this one, you are in a way.

Just because you don't like those particular things doesn't make the people who do "warped".  I like to call these people....."creative".  *giggles* 

And there is such a thing about play parties, especially the more private ones...I'm going strictly on what I've heard from those that go to them and those that host them.  Things are usually pre-disposed as to the general activities.  You have to know your Audience, right?  Therefore, I'm rather comfortable saying that those that are responsible in those situations, make those invited aware of the evening's activities and from there, those that are invited are able to make an educated decision to go, or not to go.  That is the question, now isn't it?

I wouldn't expect to go to a dungeon without researching those involved and the activities involved, that way I knew what I would need to prepare for and make the choice to go or not.  That is the responsibility of the Audience that I referenced earlier.

But, that's just MY opinion.

And yes, that IS why there are monitors at dungeons, generally to uphold the RULES of the House.  If ya don't like how kinky they are, don't GO.  Simple as that.

And as for discrimination.  That's YOUR responsibility when dealing with other people.  Find out what these people are into and if you're squicked, WALK AWAY.


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to WhiteRadiance)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/10/2006 8:49:12 PM   
caitlyn


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No worries ... I sort of thought that might be the case.
 
This topic does come up now and then, and you can almost formulate a picture of the posters life experience, just by how they respond.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? - 10/11/2006 12:32:11 AM   
closertonova


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Now honestly i have been taken advantage of, abused as some might call it, but by the time i got any warning signs i was out of town with this person, i had made things safe, i had tried to keep someone else there with me, common protocol with me meeting new Doms, I had my cell phone and i had the address with a friend just incase. Now i am a smart person, but on occasion abusers and violaters are more intellegent then most, this was a man who had a submissive i got along famously with, had friends that i could trust, had a great presence. He had offered me friendship on legit levels. He checked out rather well and i actually pride myself on my ability to screen out the people out to hurt me. But as a Dom he exerted power past my level of comfort, now to him i couldn't say no and have it stick. I did all i ever could have, i checked refrences, talked for hours, set clear boundries, set up a safety net all for a meeting with a new friend, he was friendly the first few times we met. Was i a victim? how could i not be, i take no blame for the event, i had gone above and beyond, but yes there are people out there that will take advantage. Do i think most preditors can be screaned, YES! do i think all can? i sadly know some slip through cracks. the only thing i can ask that may have helped me at this time would be to have Dominant friends. Have someone who could stand up and not give an inch when he began demanding miles. Can Doms do that? Make friends in the comunity and look out for them with no motive except care and concern? Can subbies talk amongs ourselves honestly about what made us uncomfortable about Doms we have known? Some one else had to have run across this guy before and had a bad experiance, is it a dark secret? Don't deam those victimized as fault, and yes i am a live and let live kind of person but i wonder if a person like that, currently accepted in the comunity can be black listed, sure if it was only me, one bad situations may happen, what if hes left a trail of girls, isn't it someones responsiblity to get smarter then the smart abusers???

PS i have not let the person withing miles of me since, if he can force me into things i do not wish in person he will never see me in person.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 40
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