RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women

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LadyEllen -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 8:54:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissyRane chocolate??oo Can I do the licking?? I promise to be gentle[:)] Whats with all this assertive behaviour? Thats a male thing you know! LOL! E

wild1cfl -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 8:54:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: starshineowned Greetings..~smiles~ Has no issue's with Dominant women until the point they cross the line and try to act like Men or compare themselves equally to Men. Females are not equal to Men. Men are not equal to females. Were different for many reasons..the main one that sticks out is survival, and thankfully has carried us this far. That reason doesn't seem as needed these days as it once use to..but if all forget that reason..eventually it will come back to bite us in the ass. Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin While I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it. My wife is a Very Dominant woman, I am a very Dominant man. What we have together is a marriage of love and commitment and coexistence as equal partners. What we have in D/s is a coexistence as equal partners with a submissive partner. If we disagree about what should be done with the submissive partner we talk about it and come to a decision that suits both of us. She is no less than I am and I am no less the She is. We both have found a way for us to coexist in every part of our relationship.

mnottertail -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 8:57:31 AM)
Seriously (but only briefly) I can see where an Alpha Woman would not be too keen on sharing territory with another. Certainly, it is far more obvious when this is among men by and large. But it is not a totally unexpected type of incedence. Ronne

MissyRane -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 8:59:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse But of course! yayyyyyyyyy thank youuu! quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Whats with all this assertive behaviour? Thats a male thing you know! LOL! E well you see..if I hadn't asked..I wouldn't have gotten to know!!! As if I was gonna miss this kind of an opportunity!!!![:D][:D]

LadyEllen -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 9:02:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissyRane quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse But of course! yayyyyyyyyy thank youuu! quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Whats with all this assertive behaviour? Thats a male thing you know! LOL! E well you see..if I hadn't asked..I wouldn't have gotten to know!!! As if I was gonna miss this kind of an opportunity!!!![:D][:D] Yeah, well move over then! LOL! E

LaTigresse -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 9:08:37 AM)
I had better order more chocolate!

mnottertail -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 9:21:31 AM)
Voice over (Gotterdammerung in the backround) And now, another little known horror of our society............ Women who dislike chocolate.... It doesn't occur in the population in large numbers, but as you are about to see, it is a disgusting and empty life, fraught with peril, continue at your own risk... Our story takes us to the slums of Calcutta, where MaryAnne originally from Gumshoe, North Dakota lies prostrate on the dirty street..........

HalloweenWhite -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 9:41:01 AM)
A woman who is not strong, whether she's Domme or sub isn't worth bothering with much-women should have an inner streangth,self confidence, pride etc. because she is a human being and worthy of respect, I too loose a lot of respect for women who condemn other women for not being as soft on men as they themselves are (because that's all it is-soft). Men are no more diserving of respect than women and women are -no less- diserving of respect than men;we all live on the same planet and we're all made of the same stuff. P.s I know your post was about BDSM but I think that women panicking about how other women relate to man is a really common thing. HalloweenWhite.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 10:52:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Acting like a man, to me denotes weakness and lack of confidence in onesself as a woman - it is attempting to conform and definitely submission to the male model and male rules in a male system. Remaining true to onesself, refusing to conform and submit to the male way of things, to me denotes strength and confidence. As I see it, the former is a handicap on women achieving, the latter is an enormous advantage to women achieving as women. Okay, and again I ask, who decides what kind of behavior is "acting like a man" or "acting like a woman"? Who gets to be the Holy Arbiter? I find that I deeply resent it when someone tries to limit what I can achieve or how I can act based on their notion of what is "proper" for my gender. I do what I do the way I am best at doing it. People who want to stick their noses in my business and tell me that this way of doing things is too male or too female or too whatever else are extremely annoying, the more so because I don't quite get their motivation. quote: What all this means, is that there are male and female parameters in which the vast majority find themselves. It is not wrong to be outside these parameters, but the parameters are there. When a woman acts like a man, what I mean by that is that she deliberately and against her own nature, adopts the parameters on the male side of the gender line - this cannot be healthy. If a woman naturally acts like a man, then that is OK, just as it is OK for a man to act like a woman if that is his nature. But for the majority, it is natural to be male or female in gender and for this gender to be in agreement with their birth sex. The parameters differ significantly by culture. And who gets to decide whether someone is acting naturally or deliberately deciding to go against their own nature? Don't people just point fingers, whisper and judge if they see that someone's behavior isn't conforming to what they think is proper for their birth gender? In my opinion, it's the finger pointing and whispering behavior that is offensive, not the individual who appears to be acting in a way that their culture doesn't happen to approve of for their gender. What about gender questioning and genderbent people who aren't all the way on the transgender end of the spectrum, but who don't feel strongly identified with either gender role? I guess we're always going to be judged as "unnatural" or "acting against our natures" by others who think it is right and proper that everyone should be stuck solidly in a gender role. Or maybe I should say a gender rut, because that's honestly what it feels like to me from my own perspective.

LadyEllen -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 11:50:09 AM)
Hi Najak I'm clearly not expressing it well enough, but I'll try again. Its OK to be yourself and do what you will. Its not OK to be someone else to do what you will, if you're being someone else because its thought that the qualities of the someone else are necessary for you to do what you will. Everyone has certain qualities, everyone is different. Even within sexes and genders, everyone is different and has their own qualities. Anyone with the right combination of qualities for a certain task, is well suited to that task, regardless of their sex or gender. Who gets to say which qualities are male or female in character is our culture. I appreciate the anthropological studies that have shown different demarcation in other cultures compared to this one, but this is the culture we live in. That all qualities are found to some extent in all sexes and genders is apparent - but in our culture, some qualities are judged male or female regardless, because of the Christian model which lingers in the culture. I strongly disagree with this culture, but it is the one in which I live. So what is meant by "acting like a man", is behaviour ascribed in our culture to that which "ought" to be right for a man as opposed to a woman, according to the cultural model, based on those qualities determined by our culture to be male. This in itself is not wrong. However at the same time, there are definite differences between male and female in general, from which it can be said that there is indeed a male pattern of behaviour and a female pattern of behaviour. Where I have a problem, is where women engage in a male pattern of behaviour which is against their true individual nature, because they are under the impression that they must do this in order to compete with males. As for the reaction of the culture to those who breach the gender divide which the culture itself throws up - yes, there is often victimisation. Especially prevalent in our culture is victimisation of males who exhibit natures or behaviours normally ascribed by the culture to be female. The same thing happens in reverse to females, but from my observation this is not as extreme; a boy becomes a cissy/fag/nancy/whatever and is tormented endlessly for such "deviant" behaviour, whilst a girl is simply a tomboy - an almost acceptable status. In adulthood it is notable that men who choose to be nurses, are also considered cissies/fags/nancys/whatever, whereas the woman who goes into business generally does not draw such namecalling, but is reviled if she is successful by competing in a male role by throwing away her femininity and ergo "acting like a man". As for those who do not conform to one sex or one gender or the other, then in a world which sees only male/female they are going to always have such problems from the ignorant people who victimise those who do not conform. TG people too, for expressing a gender not in accordance with their birth sex. Sadly, thats the culture we live in. Yes, there are some gender differences which arise from sex. Yes, many gender differences arise from cultural influences. Yes the culture reinforces those gender differences, ascribing some qualities to male and some to female - wrongly. Yes, the culture victimises those who do not conform - wrongly. But that is the paradigm in which we live and so the paradigm in which the discussion is held. It is no problem to breach those gender differences which arise from culture. The problem arises when one goes against the gender differences which arise from sex. I still dont think I got it right. E

sophia37 -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 3:30:29 PM)
sometimes its more interesting to just listen to other peoples views. Ive gotten past the point where I think anyone wants for me to agree or disagree with their opinion. People just like to talk. Your opinion, my opinion, what does it matter. So I dont usually walk away from those "conversations" feeling one way or another. The world goes on the same.

feylin -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 5:12:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisPandora quote: ORIGINAL: feylin I, for the most part, do not like dominant women. Well pardon me for questioning the obvious -- why do you come here to the Mistress boards then? Because I'm obstinate. <winks> Terribly manly of me. More seriously, I should not have made it so wide open but should have narrowed it down to "Dommes I have actually met." My bad.

Lashra -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 5:36:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra quote: ORIGINAL: starshineowned Greetings..~smiles~ Has no issue's with Dominant women until the point they cross the line and try to act like Men or compare themselves equally to Men. Females are not equal to Men. Men are not equal to females. Were different for many reasons..the main one that sticks out is survival, and thankfully has carried us this far. That reason doesn't seem as needed these days as it once use to..but if all forget that reason..eventually it will come back to bite us in the ass. Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin I hunt, fish, lift weights, have done martial arts and have had a few physical confrontations with men. I didn't start the fights but I did finish them. Am I bragging? No. I merely stating that not ALL women will back down, most will but not all. Some of us enjoy doing things that men do and feel quite at ease doing it. I know most men are bigger and stronger but not always, its all very individual. Most of the men that I've gone hunting or fishing with never had a problem with my gender because it was understood that I could easily take care of myself. Though with that said, they were protective of me and funny thing, I was of them. Its called watching each other's back for the good of the entire group. Have a good one, ~Lashra I have to ask, what does any of this have to do with Dominance? I hunt and fish as well as any man I have ever partnered with. I have lifted weights with the best of them. I can set up a camp faster than most men I know. I can turn a pile of fallen trees into a face cord of wood at the same pace as any man. I can swing a hammer and an axe. If I have to get into a physical confrontation, I would choose to do it with a man over a woman any day. I can support a family. I can hold my own in Corporate America. I can supervise and manage employees of both genders. But none of these things make me a Dominant woman. None of these things make me supreme or superior. They don't imply Dominance....they imply that I'm capable. I don't understand why conversations regarding Dominant women turn into discussions of abilities and equal rights. I further don't understand how women who talk of equality of the sexes can go on to say how offended they are when they see women in positions of submission....but they have no issue with men in those positions. If you truly believe in equals, doesn't that effectively negate Dominance and submission which is an UNequal dynamic? It has to do with what starshineowned stated if you read her quote, it wasnt about dominance it was about women who can/cannot do the same things as men. I was giving her examples of things women can do just as good as men. Gender has nothing to do ability. I don't understand women who say other women shouldn't be "ruining things" by loving their independence and wanting to keep/further their rights. Didnt' we live without rights for long enough? I think so. Yes everyone should be equal by LAW. In relationships this can happen if the people involved want it too. Some prefer in their relationships for one person to have control and if it makes them happy go for it. The topic has gotten off track it seems there are some who wish to view it as male bashing in which it is not. It is about some women who don't like dominant women who don't need a man to control them and about some women who think we don't need rights. Have a good one, ~Lashra

Lashra -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 5:38:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse In my opinion, neither dominance nor submission is or should be gender specific. There are a few dominant men I quite respect and enjoy, a few submissive men I also respect and enjoy. In addition there are a few submissive women and dominant women I also enjoy and respect. It is the person, the individual human being that I am interested in. Regardless of gender, sexuality, or how they identify in WIIWD. I respect ANYONE that has the courage to be themself while allowing others the same freedom, and not pass judgement on what that is, or should be. This is EXACTLY how it should be. Gender hasn't a damn thing to do with dominance/submission. I respect people who are true to their own individual natures. There are some however who don't see things this way and want to pass judgement onto others as if they have a right too. They try to force their opinions onto others and when they can't they get all pissy about it. To them all I can say is you can kiss my butt [:)] ~Lashra

Lashra -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 5:40:06 PM)
LadyEllen, I love your picture it is very nice[:)] ~Lashra

perverseangelic -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 5:46:09 PM)
I still want to know who is defining what traits are "feminine" and which are "masculine." Also, who is defining what makes us male or female? Heck, for simplicity's sake, lets ignore emotions and personal identification and focus solely on the mesurable differences in physical form. Is it biology? Primary sexual characteristics? Well, modern medicine can change those. As soon as someone has surgery, do they automatically switch over to another gender's set of stereotypes or correct behavior? How 'bout chromosomes? If so, where do intersexed individuals stand? Heck, even avoiding intersexed individuals, where do individuals with chromosomal variations stand? My old roomate was XO. She identified female, but her chromosomes were not what we traditionally call female. There are certainly enough individuals with chromosomal variations for this to be a problem. I do -not- think that men/women/other genders are the same. I mean, one look at people who identify as different genders kinda figures that out. There are differences in neurochemstry as well. However, from what I've read, those neurochemical differences cross gender boundaries, and often relate to sexual orienation as much as to chromosomal gender. That is, homosexual men have drastic similiarities in brain chemistry to straight women. Sure, there can be some generalizations made about men and women within a given culture. Within that culture there are behavior patterns that have been trationally associated with different genders. Those generalizatons often have some basis in historic precident. I honestly have very little patience with biological determinism because there are far too many flaws in the biology. The more we learn about human bodies, the clearer it becomes that gender is -not- as easy as looking for sticking-out bits versus sticking-in bits. Until someone can come up with a clear definition of what determines gender that takes into account modern science and all the permutations that occur it is impossible, to me, to say that one gender should behave one way and another should behave differently.

AquaticSub -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 7:24:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: starshineowned quote: "Until equality for all is achieved, the world will remain fragmented and inhumane." If you could Ma'am..give this girl alittle more insight as to what exactly it is you feel is currently un-equal in our society? Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin There is always the fact that there is still is a pay difference and that women aren't always given jobs they are qualified for that men are. BDSM is great. But it doesn't belong in the workplace. Unless you are a professional sub/dom. And then you are a lucky bastard. :-)

AquaticSub -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 7:28:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I personally find the Gor books repulsive on many counts and the women who follow that cult I just don't even consider them women to be honest. Thats probably wrong of me but that is how I feel. When I hear those men call those women beasts and the women just smile and giggle, I wonder whats wrong with them? I guess they don't read the parts about how many female slaves it takes to be worth one plow animal. Don't they find that just a bit degrading? or is that what they want, to be thought of as nothing more then a service animal? I dunno different strokes for different folks I guess. I know one thing as far as I am concerned I am equal to any man here on the planet Earth and deserve the same rights as they enjoy. ~Lashra I can never understand Gor because I find it hypocritical. In the books it speaks of force collaring and how great it is. How many slaves chose their masters? How many slaves would really serve some random guy who just grabbed their hair and slapped a collar on them? Really, come on raise your hand. How many women would give everything to whatever guy happened to be strong enough to strap a collar on your neck and force his way into your gentials? Cause that's a really stupid way to enter a relationship.

AquaticSub -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 7:30:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: starshineowned These issue's..abortion..non-equal pay are being addressed. Acheiving equality for everyone in everything is pretty much a pipe dream of utopia. It's just not ever going to happen. Aside from that..those in-equalitys always seem to be the fault of Man..when infact there are probably just as many women out there against abortion as there are women who feel they have the right to have one because it's their body. Probably just as many women out there that don't feel a women should be paid the same as a Man in jobs that are indeed very physically demanding because aside from a few anomalies in this world..pound for pound a women is indeed physically inferior to a Man. Does believe though that everyone should have the opportunity to atleast try. If they do succeed..great..if they don't..then this bull crap of calling the female card (forced to keep certain quota crap) allowing them to not produce the same for same pay should be just as inforced. Is it? How argued is that aspect of it all? Can't say as see's many women jumping up and down to be required like Men to sign up for selective service or be in infantry units on front lines either. Why is that? Woman hits a Man..it's acceptable. A Man punches a girls lights out like he would another Man, and suddenly she's all female and running to the cops instead of picking her ass up off the floor and returning punch. Why is that? Don't see to many women out there saying..well thats not right..she should of never hit him. So in response to this all..yes a women trying to act like a Man has issue's with especially when they want to act like Men until it upsets their little worlds then they don't want to act like Men but want the world to view them as women. Same goes for Men acting like females. Maybe a better choice of term would be "trying to be like". From what has read here though..it would seem for any issue this girl might have..the rest have their own issue's..even issue's with this girls issue's. So it seems we all have issues. :) Doesn't condemn anyone for trying to find their nitch in this world and be happy..but by the same token doesn't have to accept or agree with everything either, and yes fully understands it goes both ways. Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin waves hand Actually I'm a woman who supports women being drafted as well as men.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Women Who Dislike Dominant Women (10/11/2006 8:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen So what is meant by "acting like a man", is behaviour ascribed in our culture to that which "ought" to be right for a man as opposed to a woman, according to the cultural model, based on those qualities determined by our culture to be male. This in itself is not wrong. Hi Ellen, and thank you for taking the time. I know it can be tough to get thoughts and feelings on such a personal subject as gender roles articulated. I have tremendous respect for transgendered people and the harsh struggle they face in our culture. I have absolutely zero respect for our culture because it puts all of us differently gendered people through that harsh struggle. So, fuck the culture. I don't give a rat's ass what it thinks we "ought" to be doing or how we "ought" to be acting. It is crap like this that cranks up the suicide rate among our gay, bisexual and transgendered youth. quote: However at the same time, there are definite differences between male and female in general, from which it can be said that there is indeed a male pattern of behaviour and a female pattern of behaviour. Where I have a problem, is where women engage in a male pattern of behaviour which is against their true individual nature, because they are under the impression that they must do this in order to compete with males. In some ways it may be necessary to function in a business world whose customs and culture were originally established by men and are still largely dominated by men. Just as an American businessman going to Japan is going to have to learn their way of doing business, a woman who works primarily with men in her field is going to have to learn to play with the boys and speak their language. So yes, in some situations it may be necessary for a woman to learn to "speak male" and "act male" in order to communicate successfully with men. quote: It is no problem to breach those gender differences which arise from culture. The problem arises when one goes against the gender differences which arise from sex. I think that it depends very largely on the individual. Some of us are male bodied but have some female traits and inclinations, some of us are female bodied and have some male traits and inclinations. The majority of people's traits and inclinations are mostly in order with their birth gender, but gender is still very much a spectrum rather than a binary value. So when someone is apparently going against the gender differences that arise from sex, are they doing it because they think they have to, or are they doing it because that's where they are on the gender spectrum? And whose business is it, really, to decide what gender behavior is healthy or proper for an individual? I don't think that arbitrary social standards based on birth gender are a very good or healthy thing, and I'm sure you can personally testify how unhealthy and unhappy they are.

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