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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 11:17:31 AM

MASTERRocker

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The spelling............

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 12:18:03 PM

KeirasSecret

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I speak for myself and only myself here, as always.
I personally did not always know I am submissive. Up until a little less then a year ago the whole idea of why someone would even want to submit to another completely dumbfounded me, and my response to going along with what someone else told me to do just because they said so was “Hell, no!”, but after a turn of events, that I won’t go into, I now find myself, willingly, the property of a Dom.
Looking back at my life I realize the desire was always there, but the lack of having someone who wasn’t an idiot and I could trust prevented me from acting on it.
So I would say that even though submissiveness is in my nature, common sense kept me safe and I still refuse to bow down to just anyone. I choose when and to whom I submit.
Maybe that will help shed a little light on the whole being wired that way concept.
k

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 12:23:03 PM

RedSavageSlave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Personally, I would quickly show the door to any girl of mine that saw fit to become a "relationship trial lawyer".

I like that one.. can I borrow it sometime?

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 12:54:23 PM

ShiftedJewel

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(fast reply)..

Admittedly I haven't read all of the replies... but I figured since I haven't been badly beaten up for a while what the hell.. I'll put in my two cents..

This is my opinion only... ok?

I bellieve the difference is accountability.

In a TPE relationship both orientations need trust and communication as well as a level of committment from everyone involved. None are better or worse than any other, but I believe it is a different mindset. I am speaking from my own experience here... ok?

A submissive, no matter how dedicated they are, has an understanding that there are limits to what they will or can do... not that it's a bad thing, and granted they will push themselves to accomplish whatever task they are set to do and be merciless on themselves should they find that they are not able to do it. And in the end the dominant/owner also understands that they have done everything in their power to please but in the end it is the submissive that is accountable for what they do or do not do.

(Here's where I get flamed)

In the slave mindset when they are told to do something they will take it as nearly carved in stone and set out to do with no thought of whether or not they can. Should they get sick because of it, or get injured because of it the accountability rests on the owners shoulders because they understand (or should) that the slave serves blindly because they believe that the owners would never push them beyond their physical capabilities. (I know what you are thinking here but couldn't think of any other way to put it) I see it daily with twicehappy, we have to make sure she doesn't run herself into the ground and endanger her health. She suffers from RA and it finally reached a point where she was told that she would take a nap daily and give her body a rest. Otherwise she would go until she dropped.

Ok, got the asbestos suit ready....

Jewel

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 1:12:58 PM

onestandingstill

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

Now of course you will still have the slave who will deny any of this...and the one that will say "i don't question anything....i just obey....but i am not a doormat".

So my next question would be....what is the difference between a slave and a doormat? That one has always eluded me.

Daddysgirl

Hi There,
To me the difference between a slave and a dorrmat is the owner and his opinion of his owned property coupled with the slaves spirit and self worth perception.

A slave who's told she can have not thought of her own, and her feelings are not considered and accepts that mantle even in fundamental emotional levels is the doormat.
It's someone who no longer has hope they will find happiness or that they deserve peace, comfort and respect.

A slave who shines like the sun as a phenomenal strong link on her Masters team is not a doormat.
I know people who are slaves that are the most confident, secure, self disciplined, giving, loving, intelligent persons I've met.
They can put them selves at the end of the line, but still seem to have enough for themselves and those they serve with a smile on their faces.

In a nut shell a doormat is a slaves position as a liability or unappreciated as a person.
A slave who's strong and confident and well cared for emotionally by her Master is not.
suzanne

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 1:38:11 PM

UnvailedPurpose

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Jewl:
I can find nothing in you last response that would warrant flaming, logic rationalism and common sense although not common at all amongst D/s practitioners will always prevail.

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 1:44:47 PM

ShiftedJewel

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I really love the way you put that....

But I have to add.... a doormat is the thing you put in front of your door so that people don't track mud into the house.

Beyond that... I have to agree with onestandingstill... it's the mindset.

And UnvailedPurpose? I appreciate your kind words and would like to invite you to come sit behind the firewall with me... lol

Jewel

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 1:48:59 PM

sweetnurseBBW

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Very nice!

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 3:23:03 PM

Rover

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ORIGINAL: Rover

It's not my intention to offend you, or anyone else for that matter. But if submission is not something inherent (ie: something you are), how can it be anything other than role play (ie: something you do)?

i have no problem with You calling it role-play if You wish. i also "role-play" being a mother, an employee, a wife.. this is just one more role i choose to play. i don't say i was born to be a slave, that it's hard-wired within me, it's a behavior i choose, and even then it's only played out within certain relationships in my life.

Actually, I didn't call it role play. I asked you to make a cogent argument as to how it differs from role play. Allow me to give you a hand (maybe?)... perhaps you are saying that submission is inherent, but you can choose to whom you submit? That would be a logical assertion that I could understand and agree with. But as for distinguishing role play (verb) (an activity that one engages in by choice) from submissive (noun) or Dominant (noun) for that matter (something that one inherently "is"), you haven't helped me to understand the logic behind your assertion. I'm all about learning a thing or two, so please, if you feel up to it, give it another shot.

ORIGINAL: Rover

As for submissives maintaining "negotiating rights", who gave them that right? What right does anyone have beyond what is agreed upon in their unique relationship?

Forgive please, i was assuming the reader would devine the definition i use (and yes, i know many don't accept that one, but it works for me and mine.)    "A submissive can negotiate for her needs and wants, the slave hands over to the Master the choosing of which wants to meet, and big M owns responsibility for meeting her "needs".

example, a Dom might take no authority over sub in relation to subs career. but a Master/Mistress might decide even IF slave has a career. In any case, those things are really decided by the cpl and obviously not applied across the board, my statement was assuming the "rights" were conferred by negotiation at the outset.

Ok, let me see if I'm following this correctly. You stop me if I have it wrong. First, you're making a distinction between a Dominant and a Master? I can understand that there is a difference between being Dominant, and being Master to a submissive or slave (ie: Dominant describes the individual, whereas Master describes their position in a power exchange relationship). However, unless I'm mistaken, you're inferring that there is some other different between a Dominant in a power exchange relationship, and a Master in a power exchange relationship. Please elaborate so I do not jump to any wild conclusions.

And I'm still not sure about your meaning of submissive negotiations. Doesn't everyone (and I do mean everyone... Dominant, submissive, slave, etc) negotiate before determining whether to enter into a consensual power exchange relationship? Isn't that the essence of consent? Or do you mean that slaves may be taken and forced into a relationship without negotiation, and absent consent? Or are you conferring some right upon all submissives to negotiate throughout the entirety of their relationship (seems like a lifestyle version of the Emancipation Proclaimation)? If so, do you seriously believe that? Please reply so I don't have to become indignant about other people defining what rights my submissive will have in her relationship with me and prattle on about the death of the "one true way" everywhere but the internet.

ORIGINAL: Rover

Personally, I would quickly show the door to any girl of mine that saw fit to become a "relationship trial lawyer".

Since entering either a D/s or M/s relationship does require negotiation at the outset, "relationship trial lawyer" is a fitting description of hammering out contractual agreements.   If the contract agreed to allows further negotiation, that role can be revisited. If not, then yes, i understand what You mean, Master doesn't tolerate my "but can i do that this afternoon instead?' queries. Which is why i said if it was allowed, i'd probably do it even more than i do, and i'm trying to learn not to!

Personally, I have never had a "contract" with a girl. Contracts are legal documents, and enforceable by the courts. Lifestyle "contracts" are not legal documents, nor are they enforceable. But it is a good example of lifestyle language implying that a thing is something it is not. Here you say that a submissive may or may not have the right to negotiate throughout the relationship, whereas earlier you said that, by definition, submissives have that right. Evidently that definition is rather elastic and accomodating, but not very useful as a definition (since it defines nothing).

Please don't get the impression that I'm trying to pick on you, Mavis. Simply to engage in some detailed discussion that others may (or may not) find interesting. You stepped up and offered contribution, which I greatly appreciate. I look forward to your reply and our continued exploration of this fascinating subject.

John

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 3:25:44 PM

Rover

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Red, you may use that phrase at your discretion. With full attribute, of course. *LOL*

John

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 3:46:09 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

(Here's where I get flamed)

In the slave mindset when they are told to do something they will take it as nearly carved in stone and set out to do with no thought of whether or not they can. Should they get sick because of it, or get injured because of it the accountability rests on the owners shoulders because they understand (or should) that the slave serves blindly because they believe that the owners would never push them beyond their physical capabilities.

Not gonna flame you, Jewel, so put down the asbestos suit. *LOL* But you know my love of a good discussion. :)

You bring up the very relevant point about accountability. And while it's true that as owners, we are responsible to fulfill our obligations (whatever they may be within the context of that unique relationship), the ultimate responsibility for everyone (including submissives and slaves) rests with themselves. To deny that would render slaves utterly irresponsible. And yet, it's agreed upon that even slaves have the right to say "no" in it's fullest expression, by ending a relationship. The common refrain is that slaves can make two decisions in life (the truth is that they make hundreds a day.. the phone rings, should I answer? It's raining out, should I carry an umbrella? Chicken is on sale, should I buy it?, etc)... one to enter a relationship and the other to leave it.

Point is that slave and submissive alike say yes, until they decide to say no. Both realize that saying no has it's consequences, usually resulting in the dissolution of the relationship. But they have that right to say no. So when a limit is exceeded, or a moral absolute is broached, both will say no (if they don't, then by definition it wasn't a limit nor a moral absolute... simply an aversion).

Will a slave serve to the detriment of her health? Sure, but so will a devoted submissive. I know from personal experience.

It's easy to make unsubstantiated statements that reflect how one "feels" about being a slave, or owning one. And while we may stongly "feel" that there is a discernable difference between slave and submissive, every attempt to craft a definition that does so fails of it's own logic (or lack thereof). And yet, we still cannot get beyond the certainty that submissive (noun) and slave (noun) are two separate points along a continuum of submission (verb), denoting one (slave - noun) as being "more" submissive (verb) than the other (submissive - noun).

As I said in an email earlier today, perhaps it's like Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, who when asked to define pornography replied (and I'm paraphrasing) that he could not define it, but knows it when he sees it. Slavery defies definition.

John

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 4:10:44 PM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

Point is that slave and submissive alike say yes, until they decide to say no. Both realize that saying no has it's consequences, usually resulting in the dissolution of the relationship. But they have that right to say no. So when a limit is exceeded, or a moral absolute is broached, both will say no (if they don't, then by definition it wasn't a limit nor a moral absolute... simply an aversion).

Yes, I know how you love a good discussion... so here you go...

I absolutely agree that when it comes down to stems and seeds then yes, everyone is accountable for themselves and their own actions and they alone have to decide when it is time to say no particularly if it is something that breeches their moral, ethical or physical limit. But I made no mention of any of those.

I also didn't say anything about how it "feels" to be a slave or to own one.. I was talking about a mindset or a way of understanding things that differentiates the two. As with twicehappy... she doesn't have it in her to just "quit" or walk away from this relationship. And it's been the same for many of the slaves I have known. Even if it turned totally 'nilla tomorrow she would still be here and would adapt accordingly.

quote:

And yet, we still cannot get beyond the certainty that submissive (noun) and slave (noun) are two separate points along a continuum of submission (verb), denoting one (slave - noun) as being "more" submissive (verb) than the other (submissive - noun).

I'll have to ask you to clarify this a little for me.... unless it means that a slave is an individual that has gone a step further to become a slave? I would disagree with that with the only exception that both do "submit" (verb)... lol.. had to do that... In saying that (and like I said, I may be taking it wrong... stranger things have happened) is to imply, at least in my warped logic, that all submissive have the potential to be a slave and have not achieved that as yet because they aren't far enough along the continuum?

I don't see slave as better then submissive, I see them as different. And yes, as that Justice said... it's a real bitch to make even a vaguely understandable definition of the differences. To me the big difference is the mindset.

Jewel

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 4:38:53 PM

Rover

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I also didn't say anything about how it "feels" to be a slave or to own one.. I was talking about a mindset or a way of understanding things that differentiates the two.

Jewel, stating that a slave "mindset" differs from a submissive "mindset" doesn't help me to understand how they differ. Sounds like some of that "feeling" sorta thing that defies description. Give it another shot.

As with twicehappy... she doesn't have it in her to just "quit" or walk away from this relationship. And it's been the same for many of the slaves I have known. Even if it turned totally 'nilla tomorrow she would still be here and would adapt accordingly.

I wouldn't presume that anyone in a committed relationship would just quit and walk away. But some relationships simply fade away, and some even turn ugly and leaving is a necessity. And many submissives complain that their relationships have turned vanilla, though they have not quit and walked away (they're just seeking some way to restore the power exchange). You're not describing anything that isn't as readily common in submissives as slaves.

I'm relieved that we agree on the issue of personal accountability and responsibility. Otherwise, we'll end up jailing Dominants for the misdeeds of their slaves and submissives. *LOL*

As for the following confusing sentence:

And yet, we still cannot get beyond the certainty that submissive (noun) and slave (noun) are two separate points along a continuum of submission (verb), denoting one (slave - noun) as being "more" submissive (verb) than the other (submissive - noun).

Allow me to further elaborate. Picture a straight line, with submissive (noun... a person who is submissive) on the left, and slave (noun... a person who is a slave) on the right. There is a continuum of submission (verb... the act of submitting) along that line from submissive to slave, denoting an increase in submission (verb) as you traverse the line. And meaning that slave (noun) is "more submissive" (verb) than a submissive (noun).

Using that analogy, somewhere along that line there is a tansition point, where one ceases to be a submissive and becomes a slave. Problem is twofold. First, everyone would draw that line differently, and no one would (or could) draw it based upon consistent criteria. It would be drawn based upon your "impression" or "feeling". Second problem is that it sets slavery up as being more, deeper, better submission... a heirarchy.

I know you've already said you don't agree with that analogy, that you see the difference being one of mindset. But that IS (I believe) an accurate portrayal of how most people claiming to be able to distinguish submissives and slaves do see it.

Tag... you're it.

John

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 5:14:54 PM

catize

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quote:

Ok, let me see if I'm following this correctly. You stop me if I have it wrong. First, you're making a distinction between a Dominant and a Master? I can understand that there is a difference between being Dominant, and being Master to a submissive or slave (ie: Dominant describes the individual, whereas Master describes their position in a power exchange relationship). However, unless I'm mistaken, you're inferring that there is some other different between a Dominant in a power exchange relationship, and a Master in a power exchange relationship.

It has always puzzled me why there are so many heated debates on the slave vs submissive issue but so little, if any, on the dominant vs master or mistress. I have brought it up in other forums and it has been met with a silence that is deafening every single time.
Just wondering.

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 5:17:01 PM

KatyLied

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quote:

First, everyone would draw that line differently, and no one would (or could) draw it based upon consistent criteria. It would be drawn based upon your "impression" or "feeling". Second problem is that it sets slavery up as being more, deeper, better submission... a heirarchy.

Well stated.
Another problem is that some subs, no matter how slave-like in their tendencies, would bristle at being called a "slave". There is a lot of bad connotations with that word, such as, but not limited to: not having a brain, being a doormat, having no limits, giving up all posessions to Master, that sort of thing. And guess what -- even though they are none of those things, their submission can be "more, deeper, and better than some slaves" <gasp>

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 5:20:56 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asako

I'm a little new to the lifestyle, and noticed the two options when filling out my profile. What is the difference?

As K.O.M. predicted, about the only agreement on here so far is that the spelling is different.

Personally, I've known submissives who displayed all that has been described on here as "slave" qualities and who refused to identify themselves as "slaves" for their own reasons. They refused to do so to themselves, to their dominants, and to others in the lifestyle.

Personally, I've given up arguing over whether or not any human being can be a slave as befits the strict dictionary definition. I've conceded the point that strict dictionary definitions can be modified (though, in my opinion, only slightly) to fit the lifestyle and what occurs in a M/s relationship. If pushed though, I can argue my point for I do love a good, spirited discussion without flaming.

To conclude, my viewpoint differs from others on here thereby helping to prove K.O.M.'s statement regarding this topic...

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 5:24:24 PM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

Jewel, stating that a slave "mindset" differs from a submissive "mindset" doesn't help me to understand how they differ. Sounds like some of that "feeling" sorta thing that defies description. Give it another shot.

Ok, I've just finished dinner so I think I now have the energy to try again... lmao.

I was talking to a wonderful friend earlier that happens to be a submissive. She made an excellent point that I am now gonna steal from her... lol. In the past she has lived as a slave, she has turned herself over completely, including her personal possessions and she lived very happily but, as you said, things turned ugly and she left the relationship... but only after trying repeatedly to "fix" it. She has been single for a long time now and has come to realize that she isn't so sure that she is ready, or even willing, to give up that "accountability" as she once did. She no longer has that "mindset", or need to give over everything and trust someone with her life completely. She wants to retain the "right" to decide whether or not she wants to do what is asked of her and how she does it if she does decide to.

Whereas with twicehappy... her "mindset" is that if we were to tell her that we wanted the biggest wall in the entryway to be bright orange with 4 1/4 inch purple dots on it she would probably look at us like we're nuts then she would go and make a template that was perfectly circular and exactly 4 1/4 inches in diameter and start painting. Afterward... well, hopefully before she got much of it done, we could look at it and say "that's hideous!!" and she could agree and not be concerned about our reaction because she isn't accountable... it's our fault. In the same respect, we couldn't look at her and ask why she did that knowing we wouldn't like it?

It isn't about making decisions. The submissive mindset is about pleasing the owner and in return being pleased that they were able to do it. They can, and sometimes do, purposefully disobey an owner in order to see to it that something is done that they know for a fact the own wants done. That's one mindset...

A slave will do what they are told... period (ok, sometimes they disobey but not for the same reason) because doing what they are told is more important. If I were to tell twicehappy that she is to never answer the phone she wouldn't... even if it was me calling. No, that wouldn't make me very happy at the time, but she was obeying.

Does any of that make sense?

quote:

I'm relieved that we agree on the issue of personal accountability and responsibility. Otherwise, we'll end up jailing Dominants for the misdeeds of their slaves and submissives. *LOL*

If the slave was following orders then I wouldn't have a problem jailing the one that set the slave to doing it. Personally, I believe that if they did start holding the owners legally accountable for giving direct orders to slaves that required them to break the law there would be many owners that behaved more responsibly

quote:

Allow me to further elaborate. Picture a straight line, with submissive (noun... a person who is submissive) on the left, and slave (noun... a person who is a slave) on the right. There is a continuum of submission (verb... the act of submitting) along that line from submissive to slave, denoting an increase in submission (verb) as you traverse the line. And meaning that slave (noun) is "more submissive" (verb) than a submissive (noun).

Using that analogy, somewhere along that line there is a tansition point, where one ceases to be a submissive and becomes a slave. Problem is twofold. First, everyone would draw that line differently, and no one would (or could) draw it based upon consistent criteria. It would be drawn based upon your "impression" or "feeling". Second problem is that it sets slavery up as being more, deeper, better submission... a heirarchy.

.

Again, I don't agree that there is a heirarchy between submissive and slave... I believe they are two totally different animals. A new submissive can and in the right atmosphere does reach a point where their submission is "deeper" or more invovled simply because she/he has the experience to draw from and can relate her feelings, needs, desires and limits more clearly. She knows who she is and what she wants. The same can be said about the slave.. over time and with experience they will grow deeper in their particular orientation for the same reasons. But to say they both travel the same path is like saying that the doctor that became a specialist in cancer treatment traveled the same path as the one that became a physchiatrist. They are both in the medical field but that's where the similarities end. A submissive and slave both "submit" but took different paths to get there.

quote:

I know you've already said you don't agree with that analogy, that you see the difference being one of mindset. But that IS (I believe) an accurate portrayal of how most people claiming to be able to distinguish submissives and slaves do see it.

John... have you ever known me to take the road most widely traveled? If I can't cut my own path I'm just not happy.... lol.

Your turn....

Jewel

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 5:36:21 PM

MistressHeaven2

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I found something that almost made sense to Me - a sub gives of her/himself often, but a slave gives of her/himself just once - forever (well one can hope!) and then is owned. Another reference was not the literal one associated with our history, but more in line with the biblical version which describes how an owner must care for his slaves.(quoted from Alternative Loving - the video)

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 5:36:57 PM

liljoy

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if they are different animals. what of those that don't fit neatly into either box but are somewhere in between?
lil_joy

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 5:55:09 PM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

if they are different animals. what of those that don't fit neatly into either box but are somewhere in between?
lil_joy

A Hybrid? Just kidding. I don't see an in between. If you find joy in submitting, if that's what makes you happy and fulfilled then you are either one or the other. No, it isn't absolutely cut and dry... you could view your submission as more spiritual, or less, more dedicated, or less... but there is no in between... that's like being only a little pregnant.

Jewel

~~ step two... insert the other foot...

damn... where is that asbestos suit....

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