RE: The US and guns

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MasterKalif -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 11:34:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine Another reason the 2nd Amendment was added to the Constitution was to provide a way for the people to protect themselves from the government (our government). We've never used this right, but the 13 Original Colonies were were sceptical of a Federal Government - since every "Federal" government in history has abused it's power in one way or another, I don't think they were too far off base. Which Federal government in history has abused its power??? as far as Im concerned, none has...at least toward their own people...I can name the German Bundesrepublik (Federal republic), Brazil, Argentina...Mexico, I could go on. And frankly I don't see people in a revolutionary spirit of overthrowing their government....with all the checks and balances in place, this shouldn't be necessary hopefully.

meatcleaver -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 11:36:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine Another reason the 2nd Amendment was added to the Constitution was to provide a way for the people to protect themselves from the government (our government). We've never used this right, but the 13 Original Colonies were were sceptical of a Federal Government - since every "Federal" government in history has abused it's power in one way or another, I don't think they were too far off base. The 2nd amendment reads A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. This could mean people in the collective sense and not people as in the individual sense and seems to suggest the former rather than the latter. Can anyone tell me if it has ever been tested?

cloudboy -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 11:36:51 AM)
At least we haven't graduated from guns to stinger missile launchers in our proud homes.

MasterKalif -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 11:37:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine Another reason the 2nd Amendment was added to the Constitution was to provide a way for the people to protect themselves from the government (our government). We've never used this right, but the 13 Original Colonies were were sceptical of a Federal Government - since every "Federal" government in history has abused it's power in one way or another, I don't think they were too far off base. The 2nd amendment reads A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. This could mean people in the collective sense and not people as in the individual sense and seems to suggest the former rather than the latter. Can anyone tell me if it has ever been tested? To me it sounds like a "civilian army" of sorts....or the beginnings of a military in a new country.

ToGiveDivine -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 11:56:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine Another reason the 2nd Amendment was added to the Constitution was to provide a way for the people to protect themselves from the government (our government). We've never used this right, but the 13 Original Colonies were were sceptical of a Federal Government - since every "Federal" government in history has abused it's power in one way or another, I don't think they were too far off base. The 2nd amendment reads A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. This could mean people in the collective sense and not people as in the individual sense and seems to suggest the former rather than the latter. Can anyone tell me if it has ever been tested? I'm sure there have been groups of people who'd have liked to test this :-D

CrappyDom -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:03:59 PM)
NG, The weapons owned by civilians in the Revolutionary war were more advanced than the military weapons of the day. By the same token would you want to equate the First Amendment with only refering to movable type and unamplified voice? EVERY state that has passed laws allowing law abiding citizens to carry a firearm concealed has seen a decrease in violent crime with some increase in property crime. The commonly sited statistic about having a firearm in the home increases your chance of killing a love one counts "loved ones" as including abusive husbands with restraining orders for domestic violence who are shot and killed by wifey as well as houses where the kids are gang bangers. France allows gun ownership if you are rich and in Switzerland, every male between 18 and 60 has a machinegun and ammo in the home, Isreal is quite similar. It isn't guns that cause violence it is economic conditions. As for my interest in guns, it is many fold. I enjoy the challenge of target shooting. Historically, many guns have long storied histories. I have a rifle built by Westinghouse in WWI for the Russian Czar that was used by the Russians when they invaded Finland and was caputured by the Finns and rebuilt by SAKO a world class factory and put in war reserve by Finland for decades and outshoots almost every other gun I own. Kind a cool eh? I like the mechanical aspect of firearms as well, I find machineguns to be as interesting as a single shot rifle, one is the most complicated, the other is the most simple. Lastly, and in my opinion,most important, is that the First Amendment is the best protection for our freedoms until the day Bush puts a tank in front of the NYT and then the Second Amendment becomes the best protection. It is a final desperate measure but this is after all a country By and for the people!

Kirei -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:04:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent What is the fascination with guns in the US? Its a non-nuclear deterrent to other nations. Example: headline: North Korean forces invade US. A secret force of North Korean army invaded the US coast and tried to take over and establish a beachhead in the US near the city of Los Angles. While the miltary bases were secretly bombed and the Korean's planned to use the chaos to establish a beachhead in the US, their forces were held back by civilians armed to defend their country. Gangs who normal fought over turf united with other people to hold off the invading force until US military forces arrived to help push back the invasion. Yes this above is fictional. But in the cold war era, this kind of senario had to be taken into account if a US invasion was ever to take place. It was easier to fight US forces on foreign soil than it would be to fight them on their own. The military doesn't have to arm its civilians. There are enough people with guns in the US to arm every man, woman, and child with a gun should the country ever be invaded. As with all things there are good points and bad points with having guns. While I do not own a gun, I do know how to use one...and I believe it has made this country safer from certain situations. I do believe that had the US not had the 2nd ammendment to bare arms, the US would probably be a much different nation than it is today. Koneko

NorthernGent -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:04:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I am thinking about this one. I know it is a hot button for some people on both sides of the issue. I would say I am moreso in the middle. I know alot of people that should NOT have a gun and I know ALOT more people that do have guns. I grew up in a house that had them. Never gave it a second thought. I began target shooting when I was still a kid, was a natural and I still love it. I enjoy going to the police range and blasting at the moving and popup targets on the training field I started hunting deer when I was still in my teens, it was meat for the freezer. I no longer hunt because I can now afford to buy meat where I couldn't before. I do still have many aquaintances that enjoy hunting and I have no problem eating what they hunt when it is offered. I would venture a guess that at least 90 - 100% of my neighbours own guns and that does not bother me at all. I don't think it is an obsession for me at all. It is just a part of life. It's not scary or abnormal. I don't think making them illegal is going to change crime one bit. Those that want them for criminal purposes will get them guaranteed. I know, my exhusband always did. However I don't consider wether I own a gun or not to be a deterent to a criminal that may want to get into my house. It's just not that sort of neighbourhood. I would have a higher risk of getting attacked by a mad cow protecting her calf. The way I see it is that owning guns has become such an ingrained part of US culture that many bristle at the idea of having the right to own them taken away, wether we really want the damned things all that badly or not. It's more the principle rather than the actual "having". Although we, as a nation, are damned good at wanting to "have" all sorts of unnecessary crap. Hmmm, so it's more about holding on to your perceived rights rather than a fascination with guns? Sounds like you see it as a symbol of citizens' rights. I'm trying to think of a similar example here and I can't think of anything we get so excited about. Maybe if they stopped our beer down the pub we'd be seriously pissed off and then get some guns from somewhere to shoot the bar owners and take what's rightfully ours. Apart from that, nothing springs to mind. On your reducing crime point, does it not differ from state to state i.e. if you took guns away from a hunting area in the wilds somewhere then it would make no difference but what if you took guns away from New York or Chicago - would it make a difference then?

NorthernGent -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:08:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SenseofBelonging there is a small town in georgia which, several years ago, passed a law making it mandatory for each head of household to keep a gun in the home. since enactment, crime rates have dropped like the proverbial stone. Fair enough, Sense. Out of interest, do you have any links so I can see which crimes have dropped and by how much?

CrappyDom -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:10:34 PM)
quote: Hmmm, so it's more about holding on to your perceived rights rather than a fascination with guns? Sounds like you see it as a symbol of citizens' rights. Unlike those in other countries, we made it quite clear that it is the people who hold power, those rights are neither percieved nor symbolic. I think those that are anti-gun are just the like the coward republicans that would surrender all rights to the government in exchange for some protection, they want a nanny state.

meatcleaver -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:11:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom but this is after all a country By and for the people! So are other western countries and some are more democratic than the US but none seem to have the love affair with guns.

UtopianRanger -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:14:19 PM)
quote: If the answer is that Americans needed to arm themselves 225 years ago in a war with Britain don't worry about it, there's no way we're going to pull that shit again, we can't even run a bath anymore let alone a military campaign. No...You're right; the Redcoats won't be coming anytime soon. But they did re-create ''Keyser Soze'' with a 2 foot beard and prayer rug.....so we actually do need our guns, because the Muslim extremist's are coming here to kill us. - R

NorthernGent -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:15:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn You would have to live here in America, to really understand ... [;)] Is that an invite?

mistoferin -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:16:22 PM)
I'm a bit surprised that no one has listed hunting as the primary purpose of owning a gun. I know that is my primary reason and I'm quite sure that it is for many others in my area. In my state there will be an estimated 750,000 deer licenses sold this year and an additional 300,000 small game licenses. That doesn't even count those who hunt on privately owned preserves where no license is required. I have owned guns all of my life and if I have any say in the matter whatsoever I always will. Hunting and sport shooting is my number one reason, but protection also figures in. The town that I live in is not a major metropolitan area like NYC, but our crime figures here are as high, and in some instances higher than theirs. I am very proficient in the use and care of such weaponry. I use them often to keep that proficiency level high. I have also given very serious thought to the possible eventuality of using such a weapon against another human being, should that need arise, and have determined to the best of my ability that I don't have any issues there. Certainly, if I ever had to take a human life I would be traumatized by that event. But we all have to make hard choices sometimes. I have made the decision that should some 19 year old crackheaded gangbanger ever decide to put me in a "it's him or me" position over the 20 bucks I may have in my pocket....well, it's not going to be "me". I don't believe that gun ownership is for everyone. I would even go so far as to say that there are huge numbers of law abiding citizens out there who are gun owners that just shouldn't be. There is huge responsibility in ownership and I don't believe that many people really think that all the way through.

CrappyDom -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:16:54 PM)
Meatcleaver, Most Western countries allow widespread gun ownership, they just restrict it to the wealthy. In addition, how do you account for nations like Switzerland and Finland that have widespread gun ownership of everything including machineguns? Canada has widespread gun ownership and used to be even more open and yet they don't have the crime rate we do.

mistoferin -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:18:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: SenseofBelonging there is a small town in georgia which, several years ago, passed a law making it mandatory for each head of household to keep a gun in the home. since enactment, crime rates have dropped like the proverbial stone. Fair enough, Sense. Out of interest, do you have any links so I can see which crimes have dropped and by how much? Here is a link referring to that town and another who has a similar proposal from today's news. http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/proposal-urges-citizens-to-arm-for-city/20061012094309990025?ncid=NWS00010000000001

LadyEllen -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:21:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Hmmm, so it's more about holding on to your perceived rights rather than a fascination with guns? Sounds like you see it as a symbol of citizens' rights. I'm trying to think of a similar example here and I can't think of anything we get so excited about. Maybe if they stopped our beer down the pub we'd be seriously pissed off and then get some guns from somewhere to shoot the bar owners and take what's rightfully ours. Apart from that, nothing springs to mind. To be honest NG - it pisses me off that I am not allowed to own a gun; why am I forbidden? There are laws in place to prevent murder - and if I wanted to murder someone, I'd find another means to do it, in the absence of owning a gun. And the very real fact that one could get a gun for the illegal shooting of your fictional bar owners, just says it all. Criminals get guns regardless of the ban here - in fact criminals have managed to get hold of SMGs since the ban on private gun ownership. Gun crime has escalated through the roof, whilst those who had their guns confiscated not long ago are conspicuous in their absence from prisons, it seems. Of course, there should not be a free for all - it needs to be controlled. The Michael Ryans of this world should never have had a gun in the first place for goodness sake. But to ban all of us because of one or two nutters, is ridiculous and just another knee jerk reaction to keep the readers of The Daily Mail et al happy. On your reducing crime point, does it not differ from state to state i.e. if you took guns away from a hunting area in the wilds somewhere then it would make no difference but what if you took guns away from New York or Chicago - would it make a difference then?

NorthernGent -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:22:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 I live not far from a major highway that runs directly into NYC. For quite a while the area was getting daytime breakins. They would hit the house and be out of the area quickly due to the easy highway access. I've only had to pull the gun out once and that was due to a very large bear becoming aggressive toward my dog in my yard. But it's nice to know that I can pull out that gun if I need it. Here you go Aileen. According to this link you're more likely to be robbed in England than you are in the US http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/12/01/ncrime01.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/12/01/ixhome.html The official British Government response to this was that we are better than everyone everyone else at collecting data hence we are detecting more crime. They didn't bother explaing why, they just said it so it must be true.

NorthernGent -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:32:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif NorthernGent, good topic as always....in any case, it is true this crazy fascination with guns is the fear of "protection" and so forth....which I can understand as I got robbed about two years ago, and the police were never able to help me out, they even refused to take finger prints....the cops in the US in my opinion are good for just being a pain in the "kebaba", like pulling me over for going a bit over the speed limit.... MK, we have exactly the same here. High rates of robbery, little perceived police protection. We tend to see robbery as simply one of life's pain in the arse things that just isn't worth shooting someone. I think it is a cultural thing that is ingrained, as it is in the constitution, they see it as a right, which in my opinion makes little sense....sure is it fun to own a gun? probably....I want to take shooting lessons someday, would be fun. But the tragedy of the thing is that a thief can find a gun in your house and use it against you....or the family's children could find it and go on a killing spree or kill someone accidentally. I do worry if my neighbors own a gun, because I wouldn't trust them with one. Luckily I live in an apt complex, so I doubt that to be the case. Definitely cultural, I can't think of another country that holds guns in such high esteem but then maybe there are some in South America?

CrappyDom -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 12:33:43 PM)
The problem with gun and crime related statistics is that they are not collected in such a way as to draw clear conclusions although on their face they clearly support the progun side of the argument. The number of youths in a population greatly skew the crime results so if you have a 10% reduction of crime and have a 20% decrease in the number of juveniles your crime rate could be argued to have gone up. To me, one of the best statistic studies was done by the CDC, an agency that is rabidly anti-gun. The conclusion they came up with was that there was no indication that gun laws had any effect on crime.

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