RE: The US and guns (Full Version)

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ToGiveDivine -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 2:42:42 PM)

You just never know when Mao, Hitler or Stalin just may decide to invade - you never can be too careful with those wacky guys



cuddleheart50 -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 2:47:33 PM)

I wouldnt be without my gun.  I feel alot safer knowing its here.



Pulpsmack -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 2:48:18 PM)

Seeing how this (for once) did not becone a shitstorm of a screaming match based 70% on emotion, 25% on opinion, and 5% on fact, I'll play the way the OP intended.

Why we are obsessed with guns:

1. We are a nation born of war, which was the only way in which we could gain our freedom

2. We are a nation born of conquest in which the three European powers (Britain, Spain, and France) used the barrel of a gun (and of course, small pox) to conquer territory from the natives, a tradition that Americans adopted as they drove westward.

3. We are a nation that (at least when the country operated under the provisions of the constitution) a nation that prized their freedoms. We have guns to protect our selves and families from criminals. We have guns to protect our way of life from tyranny (except we are giving on on that one and will pay in spades later). We have guns because we can

4. We are a nation of conflicts having fought 4 of our nation's most significant conflicts (Revolutionary, Civil, WWI, WWII) in less than 200 years. That is one huge shitstorm every 50 years (interspersed with a bunch of smaller albeit by no means trivial ones). 

5. We are a nation of wealth, and people with means want protection as well as recreation

6. We are a nation of diversity, and diversity means different ideologies, beliefs, and consequently classes, which causes intranational tension, and escallates the need for defense.This goes back at least as far as the Civil War.

7. We are a nation of excesses. I find it bitterly ironic that some asshole questions my "need" for a military assault weapon before climing into his/her military style assault vehicle. If someone can have a Mustang Cobra which is designed to go twice the legal speed limit anywhere in the US and speed kills more than ALL shootings combined, then why is a weapon that is constitutionally protected sporting a 30 round magazine even up for discussion? So in short, they, like hang gliding, skydiving, etc, are a fun and expensive hobby and Americans love fun and expensive.

8. We are the media center of the nation, cranking out more television programs and movies than anywhere else in the world. What sells? Sex and violence. We are obsessed with refining the basest points of human nature to a depraved art (note what site upon which you are reading this). Again, it is bitterly ironic how the many of most vociferous opponents of gun ownership are members of an industry that pimps, panders to, and otherwise worships violence (entertainment industry).  



sissifytoserve -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 2:50:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent



Surely it would be better to have a pub on every corner rather than a gun shop?


NO...in fact quite the opposite. I say ban Alcohol before guns...but we alreday tried prohibition and it created more crime.

If you ban guns from law abiding citizens..only CRIMINALS will hav guns...from the underground small arms market.

I'll never give up my Glock, my Sigarms or ANY of my rifles.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:
sissify, I see your point with Hitler and Stalin but these are the exceptions to the rule. What about today's European Governments?


No different. They all want to bring us all eventually into a corrupt, elitist run one-world government. I DON'T TRUST THEM...and neither should you.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:
Yes, there is a certain level of corruption and you would have to be blind to say they are acting in our interests but that's our fault because we're voting for them and standing by while they get away with it. Owning a gun is not the solution.


I 100% disagree. As "V" in the movie V for Vendetta says...."People should not fear their government....it is the government that should fear the people".

Its the best precaution we can take to defend ourselves...or families and our neighbors. IMHO. Governments certainly can't do that. And you can't have a cop on every corner...although SOME politicians would LOVE that. Along with cameras everywhere. (Which is happening in Britian)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:
The solution is to elect the right people to run our country. The Government are just an extension of us. They're not a mythical set of beings who exist in a vacuum. We can replace them with people who genuinely care about running the show for all of the people.



Not when the voting machines are rigged...Big money banks and corporations and think tanks decide WHO runs...and massive fraud is being perpetrated.

I just flat-out disagree with disarmament of US citizens.

That would be the end of a citizens last resort to change a corrupt government (Neo-kings)




KenDckey -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:17:39 PM)

I have 7 rifles and 2 pistols.   Some I use for reenactments.   Some I use for plunking (shooting at Engineer stakes - I dont plunk cans and bottles.  Engineer stakes at least are biodegradable).   I carry my pistol in the desert for protection against wild boar (which are in the area I like to frequent) and snakes (slimy little suckers).   I keep my pistol loaded at home too.   I have one round snake shot and one round hollow point.   If the snake shot (which makes it a tiny shotgun) doesn't stop an intruduer the hollow point will.  We are in a major drug transshipment point for drugs going North into NV and points north from Mexico.   Although we solved our gang problem, we still have drug problems and druggies.   I don't carry it with me all the time. but when I do, I carry it visible.   I want someone that wants to do me to know I will do them back.   I also believe that as a member of the malitia of my state it is my duty to have weapons (I consider all able bodied men to be in the state malitia - you know the one run by the Adjutant General of the State not some flaky one run by some wierdo)



meatcleaver -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:27:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Seeing how this (for once) did not becone a shitstorm of a screaming match based 70% on emotion, 25% on opinion, and 5% on fact, I'll play the way the OP intended.

Why we are obsessed with guns:

1. We are a nation born of war, which was the only way in which we could gain our freedom

I think you ought to read your history. The average colonist had more rights under the British than under the new regime of the USA. The empire loyalists that fled north to Canada enjoyed more freedom under the British than the average new US citizen did under their new government. Don't forget, only about 10% of the new citizens could vote because the founding fathers didn't trust the other 90%. Strange new freedom the average colonist won for themselves. Ask yourself who gained. The colonial establishment, that's who. Most of who still form the establishment.

2. We are a nation born of conquest in which the three European powers (Britain, Spain, and France) used the barrel of a gun (and of course, small pox) to conquer territory from the natives, a tradition that Americans adopted as they drove westward.

Don't blame the British for stealing Indian lands. One of the reasons for the war of independence was because the British were trying to stop the colonists stealing Indian land in the form of the Proclaimation line.




meatcleaver -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:34:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Oh, whatever NorthernGent ... last week is was our healthcare system ... next week it will be something new ... you are pretty much endless and transparent. [;)]
 
The problem is ... how are we supposed to take the advice of you Euros ... when you send things like this our way. [8|]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvHjMV8mPis



As the country that produced the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Who and many many more, we are definitely not guilty of EUROPOP.

We are not even guilty of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceSxEjwXHcM but I would dearly love a private audience with her.



ScooterTrash -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:38:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

So what is the attraction of owning guns?

  NG, I can only answer for myself; I honestly don't know if it's an attraction, an exercise of a right, or a potential defensive tool. I know for a fact, they look cool in the gun cabinet..a strikingly nice piece of furniture I might add. Perhaps they give me a sense of security just knowing they are there, not that I anticipate having to use them, but like any tool, if needed, they might be handy. If I wanted to go hunting, I already have them, if I want to go to a trap shoot, I don't have to get anything special, if someone breaks into my home and is threatening me with lethal force ..well, I have an option I guess. I used to live in the country and scared off some vandals one night without even firing a shot, so perhaps it's a visual device as well...lol. Apparently an M1 with a 30 round banana clip hanging out of it can be serious a deterrent if you catch a glimpse of it. But I have to agree with what many have said, as a nation; it's a defensive tool as well. What country in their right mind would attack a country on their home soil, when the assumption is that most of the general population owns a firearm.
   BUT still..the best example of the effectiveness of owning a gun actually comes from a story I heard about an anti-gun advocate. When they were ranting about the evils of owning a firearm, they were asked if they felt that passionately about banning guns, if they would be willing to put a sign in their front yard, stating they were against gun ownership and did not own a gun? Needless to say, they declined...lol.



Pulpsmack -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:43:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Seeing how this (for once) did not becone a shitstorm of a screaming match based 70% on emotion, 25% on opinion, and 5% on fact, I'll play the way the OP intended.

Why we are obsessed with guns:

1. We are a nation born of war, which was the only way in which we could gain our freedom

I think you ought to read your history. The average colonist had more rights under the British than under the new regime of the USA. The empire loyalists that fled north to Canada enjoyed more freedom under the British than the average new US citizen did under their new government. Don't forget, only about 10% of the new citizens could vote because the founding fathers didn't trust the other 90%. Strange new freedom the average colonist won for themselves. Ask yourself who gained. The colonial establishment, that's who. Most of who still form the establishment.

2. We are a nation born of conquest in which the three European powers (Britain, Spain, and France) used the barrel of a gun (and of course, small pox) to conquer territory from the natives, a tradition that Americans adopted as they drove westward.

Don't blame the British for stealing Indian lands. One of the reasons for the war of independence was because the British were trying to stop the colonists stealing Indian land in the form of the Proclaimation line.




Riiiight. We needed to spill blood and war with our then mother country because we had too many freedoms.[>:]
You aren't going to say that the death camps in Poland were really football fields, next are you?

I blame the British, the French, the Spaniards, and the settled Americans for conquest. That the British are the lesser of all evils does not absolve them.



CrappyDom -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:46:27 PM)

quote:

This probably gets to the crux of the difference. One of the things I have noticed while being on this board is the number of Americans who are suspicious about the notion of a central Government. It is unheard of in Britain. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, better or worse. Don't get me wrong, we don't agree with the policies of our Government but the idea of not having a central Government is completely alien to us. It is ingrained in our society. We simply what a change to the people who run the Government.


I am going to take this in for discussion in my cultural anthro class as it is classic.

Us crazy Americans like to think the government ultimately answers to us and not the other way around. 

Lets not forget that England embraced gun control out of fear of revolution from within and thinks like the troubles just made it even more imperitive.



Aileen68 -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:49:44 PM)

*fast reply*
If this country  ever got to the point, for whatever reason, where food and water supplies became scarce you'd see chaos and those guns used, not on enemies invading, but on your neighbor.  I honestly don't think we'd ever see a wide spread invasion of this soil, but the threat of it would cause such unrest in this country.  Guess again if you think our government could handle that.  Think of how people riot and loot when there is a temporary change in their everyday...power loss, flood, etc.
We need guns to protect us from each other not terrorists.  Just a thought.



meatcleaver -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:52:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Riiiight. We needed to spill blood and war with our then mother country because we had too many freedoms.[>:]

It was acknowledged at the time, free people rebel, slaves jangle their chains.

You aren't going to say that the death camps in Poland were really football fields, next are you?

See above. Free people rebel, slaves accept their fate.

I blame the British, the French, the Spaniards, and the settled Americans for conquest. That the British are the lesser of all evils does not absolve them.

Spanish apart. The US killed more indians than the British and the French put together by millions.





cloudboy -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 3:59:08 PM)

Did you start out, though, with a transparent, green, squirt gun that was a knock off of a german lugar?



meatcleaver -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 4:14:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Lets not forget that England embraced gun control out of fear of revolution from within and thinks like the troubles just made it even more imperitive.


A lack of guns has never stopped a revolution. The only way of preventing a revolution is to stop the conditions that create it. What stopped revolution in Britain was not gun control but successive governments implimenting reform rather than as in many countries waiting for revolution to take place.

Having googled 'British gun control'. I am surprised at how many Americans cite British gun control as a way of preventing revolution. Churchill himself said, introducing unemployment benefit (as a way of preventing revolution) was cheap at the price. He was too wiley a politician to realise a lack of guns would stop revolution. As one can see in other revolutions, when they gather momentum, armies are reluctant to shoot their own people. They are after all their families.



CrappyDom -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 4:35:45 PM)

You either missed (which I doubt) or ignored the actual question.   The British governement sold gun control publicly as an anti-crime tool but internally it was understood that it was to disarm and make the public powerless.

I envy many things about Europe, the health care, the smaller scale of living, the urban planning that makes public transportation possible, the food in many placed other than England but I do not envy your civil rights.

As for Canada, I have been introgated for many many long hours by the RCMP who just love pointing out that in Canada, citizens have no rights so while I think the place lovely, I will stay on my side thank you very much. 



Moloch -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 4:44:27 PM)

quote:


So what is the attraction of owning guns?


You know what rape is?
How about 3 guys corner 120lbs girl in a dark alley near your nice Pub and take turns raping her then they cut her throat?
If this shit was pulled in Texas there would be 3 dead sucm bags with holes in their heads.

God Made Man   Colt Made Them Equal




CrappyDom -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 6:18:24 PM)

I know a woman who killed two men, one of whom had a gun.  She did the fingers into the eye ball trick with one and had the presence of mind to wiggle them then got a rock and crushed the skull of the other one.

Cops wanted to arrest HER...of course they later found bloody panties from some OTHER girl in the bastards van but typical fucking pigs...



KatyLied -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 6:31:57 PM)

I don't understand the gun love.  But to each his own.  My dad collects guns, he doesn't hunt or shoot anything with them.  I guess he likes the way they look, I don't know.  Pennsylvania is considering handgun legislation that will allow only 12 handguns to be purchased per year (a maximum of one gun per month).  I don't understand why anyone would need to buy one handgun per month.



Najakcharmer -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 6:35:41 PM)

I used to collect guns, old rifles specifically, but I just plain ran outta room in a small place and now they're in storage.  Bleh.  Must either get a bigger place or find somebody who wants to take them off my hands and actually enjoy them.

edit: no, I am not giving them away to random strangers, not something I could afford to do!  And I'm too busy with the rest of my life to put in the effort required to sell them, as I understand the paperwork is a pain in the ass.  This is just wishful thinking. 



Lashra -> RE: The US and guns (10/12/2006 7:17:48 PM)

I grew up with guns and got my first one at the age of 12 when my Father started taking me hunting with him. We used to hunt and go target shooting, it was alot of fun. Then when I was 21 he gave me my Grandfathers german service revolver which I still have. When I got older I started my own collection.

I can say that I did have to draw my pistol on a man who decided to get violent with me after I refused to have sex with him on a date. It certainly convinced him to leave me alone.

I don't know what it is about them but I love the darned things. I know I do sleep much better in the house knowing I have them and my dogs.

~Lashra



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