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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 11:18:30 AM

raiken

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Does haveing a 200 means that someone is smarter than you. What if yours is only 50 and know something he dosent. Are you smarter than him .

It is my understanding that IQ is only a measure of one's ability or capability to be able to learn, understand or grasp concepts and ideas in certain areas. It is not how much knowledge one has, but their ability to accurately apply that knowledge. Rote memory is good for taking tests though. *grin There are i think 7 measures of IQ tests or is it 9? i forget now. There are many different areas of intellignece. Emotional intelligence is just one of those, i forget the rest. Perhaps someone else will offer more information and a better idea of what i am trying to share in this. *smile

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 12:35:27 PM

HollyS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

It is my understanding that IQ is only a measure of one's ability or capability to be able to learn, understand or grasp concepts and ideas in certain areas. It is not how much knowledge one has, but their ability to accurately apply that knowledge. Rote memory is good for taking tests though. *grin There are i think 7 measures of IQ tests or is it 9? i forget now. There are many different areas of intellignece. Emotional intelligence is just one of those, i forget the rest. Perhaps someone else will offer more information and a better idea of what i am trying to share in this. *smile

Not to thread-hijack, but the most widely accepted professional IQ test has 14 subtests to it and tests abilities ranging from short-term memory to spatial ability to vocabulary to attention to detail and social awareness. It's given by a professional psychologist and the results are accompanied by a detailed report. Some of the subtests are optional, depending on the purpose for testing. A couple rely on "rote memory" (ability to parrot back something heard or read) but the majority don't. And basically the test (when given correctly) offers a wealth of information on the individual's strengths and weaknesses, insight as to what kind of learner he/she is, and whether there are areas of concern that need to be addressed by other professionals (possible head injury, learning disability, problem processing speech, reversal of visual items, etc...). It's looking at averages over an enormous amount of the population who have taken the test over time and evaluating based on how far one falls from the norm -- much like many other tests.

You're right, an IQ test is looking for what you already know and how you apply that to new situations. It doesn't necessarily test "ability or capacity to be able to learn" even though the implication is there. For example, a higher IQ # doesn't necessarily mean you can learn more than someone with a lower number - maybe it means you maxed out one part of the test, making up for deficits in other areas... this is why any good IQ test comes with a report explaining the results. And IQ tests certainly don't measure things like "emotional intelligence." There are plenty of other tests that look for things like emotional awareness, empathy levels and degree of social involvement vs. anti-social behavior, but one's level of intelligence isn't related. Truly, some of the smartest people can be emotionally empty... unsurprising, really.

~Holly, returning you to the never-ending debate on "what words mean and why people love to argue about them"

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 12:41:40 PM

mnottertail

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I am thinking that if someones IQ is 50 they are going to know alot about the daily doings of ants, which I wouldn't know........but we could still communicate on some level, having been in that kinda business before.

Ron

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 2:09:48 PM

sailorthor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

My understanding of the "beg" in "begging the question" has always been slightly different, however. "Begging the question" means purporting to prove a proposition by assuming the very proposition that was to be proven in the first place. The "question" is the proposition; "begging" that question means requesting it in one's (fallacious) proof.

That is why I clarified with petitio principii. Asking a real question, the answer to which is already given, with both question and answer being specious, it roughly equivalent to circular logic.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 3:53:33 PM

Lordandmaster

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Yes, sailorthor was absolutely right about "begging the question"; I was explaining my understanding of why it's called "begging the question" in the first place.

Now I might be wrong about this, but I don't think so. The "question" in "begging the question" is the proposition that is to be proven. "Begging" that proposition means requiring the use of it in one's proof. And you can't do that. So "begging the question" means trying to prove a proposition by relying on the very proposition you're supposed to be proving.

Most people, as sailorthor said, think "begging the question" means something like "raising the question," and that's totally wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smythe

Can you restate this propostion for those of us with IQs under 200?

i agree with sailorthor about the proper usage of "begging the question" but I don't quite get your elaboration.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/25/2006 3:56:56 PM

Lordandmaster

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If that was his point (and I don't think it was), he can't pretend that there are timeless and universally valid definitions of what we in the BDSM world call "slave." And yet that's what he was trying to say. But he's gone now, so all we can do is imagine what he meant, and I don't think that's a useful exercise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NJSubGirl

Ummm...that was the entire point!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, since you're done with this thread, you won't see this response, but ...

Neither "a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person" nor "drudge" is exactly what anyone means by "slave" in the BDSM world.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 5:05:44 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Does haveing a 200 means that someone is smarter than you. What if yours is only 50 and know something he dosent. Are you smarter than him .

To clarify for you, Dnomyar...

Ignorance, which would be not knowing something, can be cured. Pick up a book and read it. Take a class. Talk to people. Whatever.

Stupidity, which would be a lack of capacity in one's mind to take in or process information due to lack of, for want of a better term, processor capability, cannot be cured.

The problem that I have with IQ in general is that it attempts to define in black and white an abstract concept that varies from person to person.

Intelligence develops at an extremely young age and, from what I read studying early childhood education, is not so much the number of neurons in the brain, but the number of connections which form. This is why an infant who is presented with much stimuli, played with, etc., tends to end up smarter than one who is ignored and forgotten.  Identical twin studies (separated at birth) have determined that nurture plays a critical role in the development of intelligence.

What is considered intelligence is a hotly debated topic. Is it being able to perform integrations in your head without a calculator? Is it being able to write Hamlet? Is it being able to remember your friend's phone number when he was 5? Is it being able to perform above the mean for performance at your job? Is it being able to pick up a Mandolin and be fully capable of playing it in a band 3 days later?

Yes. And no. It is some of these things. It is all of these things.   It is none of these things.

As I stated, IQ tests and the whole concept of IQ is an attempt to take a varied and rather abstract concept that varies from person to person and apply a black and white litmus test to prove that person A is more "intelligent" than person B. It fails for that very reason; person A is different than person B, and I dont personally believe that there will ever exist one particular definition as to their differences which will ever satisfy everybody.

For example, Monkeyboy has an IQ that was measured in the 70s, making him a low grade cretin, since an intelligent dog has an IQ of around 68. He was passed through Harvard with an MBA, catapulted over hundreds of people to land a coveted position in the Texas National Guard so he didnt have to go to Vietnam. Got elected Governor, and then President.

Is he smarter than you or I? Good question. Depends on how you define intelligence. I would point out that he was intelligent enough to pick the right parents, but that might be obstructively cynical on my part.

I tend to see attempts to label D/s or BDSM concepts with definitions in the same light; there are too many variables for the definition to have much meaning in the real world.  The reasons most people give as to why we need them, lead me to consider their need for them to be a sign of intellectual laziness on their part.

But that is just me, and I could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 7:41:36 PM

AcademyForSlaves

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People like to categorize, label, or stereotype as a quicker way to understand someone or something that they might not fully understand at first glance.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/26/2006 12:39:48 AM

adaddysgirl

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i was just looking back through this thread and a thought occurred to me. It seems we are talking about labels.....and definitions.....and i am questioning what reliance one has on the other.

For example, i call myself a daddy's girl. i guess that is my label. i do this so others get an idea of where my interests lie. So a Daddy Dom type might look at my 'label' and say "Yes, i'd like to get to know more about her" whereas a Master type might think "i really have no interest in a daddy's girl". Okay...so the label serves a purpose of possible introduction.

So i've got the label....now what is the definition of a daddy's girl? Damned if i know! lol

When someone has asked me that, i can only reference what has made me feel that way in a relationship and that is why i 'adopted' that title. But just like anything, a daddy's girl is just too diverse of a term to define for everybody. Yes, there are links on being a daddy's girl....i have read them....some of it applies to me and some doesn't. i see no definition of that label that could possibly apply to every person who calls themselves such. Nor do i see a set criteria which must be met to call oneself that.

So i ask again....what is the definition of a daddy's girl?

i don't know that taking on a label as a matter of reference...or even to self define....is a bad thing. It just gives others a point from which to start. Take 2 single males at a play party. Unless one says he is a sub and maybe the other a dom, one would not be sure which one to approach as a possible interest.

i just saw a sub asking where the 'levels of submission' link can be found. Now she will go there, pick a level that she identifies with, and adopt it for herself. Fine. But please do not come back and tell me that for me to be considered at that level, i must meet the criteria....the definition...of that label as set forth on that net page. That is where the controversy begins.

When i was in a D/g relationship, i was the 'right' daddy's girl for my partner....because it worked for us. But i will not come out and say i am a 'true' daddy's girl because i don't even know what that means and if someone else called themself that, i might just be inclined to ask them what that means (to them).

DG

< Message edited by adaddysgirl -- 10/26/2006 12:47:27 AM >

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/26/2006 3:56:56 PM

MasterWilliam55

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Definitions are short form descriptions of what, as an individual, we are about. They don't have to or need to, no could they ever, describe our totality, but they do provide a common bases to begin a relationship. I seek a high protocol slave. This is a slave with a specific interest. It may not define all of who she is, but it's a start.
D/s defines all of our relationships in the lifestyle. M/s is a branch of that. Gor is another branch. Sadism, masochism are all defined. If you call yourself a masochist, you better konow the definition of that word before you come visiting me.

Bottom line, definitions explain in short form who we are and help us find those with similar interests.

The ramblings of an old Dom.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 11/6/2006 7:52:16 PM

aryan

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Interesting question. I think the use of definitions and labels by some is the mirror image of the reason of those who do not use them, and the irony is that in choosing to use definitions or not, a person thereby defines himself or herself realtive to those people who share similar terminology.

Why describe oneself as a democrat, a geek, an atheist, as generation X, or as anything else, or nothing for that matter? There are as many definitions and nuiances of those definitions as there are people. In using a label or a definition, a culture defines itself. In doing so, other people who share similar characteristics can find one another. People who use a common language often share more in common with each other than those who do not.

Labels and definitions, I think, are tools used among groups of people to help create community and culture. The challenge I see emerging from this is for cultures (or people who choose to use different labels or none at all) to learn to be tolerant of one another. There are so many reasons why a person would choose to use one word over another, all entirely dependent on their life and their ancestors' life experiences, the society they live in and the rules that govern it, the religious beliefs, the spiritual beliefs, heck, who can really know all the forces behind the choice of verbiage?

Fact is, different words are used for different reasons, but I think primarily for identification and socialization purposes.

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