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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 8:49:19 AM   
raiken


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Labeled: 5 people. Master, Domme, Switch, submissive, slave.

UnLabeled: 5 people

Labels are necessary.




i believe that you believe, that for you, labels are necessary.
 
For me, people are just people, behind the words, beneath the veil, beneath the mental attire, and the physical adorments. 

 One may label themselves a dominant, but when with me, feel drawn to another part of themselves that when combined with my energy comes alive.  For that person to deny what they feel because they are trying to contain themselves in a label is confining and restricting to their growth and experience.  i don't want a person who denies a part of who they are because of a mere word and its conotations.  i will label myself for general clarity sake, but if i find that another person ignites something else in me that may have been there but dormant until that person, i throw labels to the wind and go with the flow.  It is the experience that matters most to me.  Whether it is online messaging and good conversation, or a nice dinner, date, or play time session, whatever it is, that is what life is for me, good memories and experiences along the way.  Sometimes i don't know what i am looking for until i actually find it.  Just me.

Edited because i still have trouble stringing words together in this language. *grin

< Message edited by raiken -- 10/24/2006 8:53:52 AM >

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 8:52:02 AM   
Dnomyar


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Status: offline 		Without difinitions we would not need a dictionary or spell checker. How would we understand each other or get a point across.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 8:54:27 AM   
Dnomyar


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Status: offline 		raiken how would you know what a person (Master, ect) was without them defining themselves.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:01:44 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I will assume that your spell checker allows difinitions?  While many things could be determined as cut and dried we all cope fairly well in fuzzy logic, if it is not too pedantic.  In the main, most non-technical definitions are generally understood (I don't mean general populus, but in a general way).  But words have visions and textures for those of us autistic and pinpointing the variance and colluding in toto that some definition will hold, is rather untenable.  The people who make dictionaries have done a sound job, but the only thing they are is first.......not always right.

I prefer to wake up in the morning and take some time to observe the folgent sunrise.

Know whadda mean, Vern?

Ron  

Ron

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:07:36 AM   
raiken


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

raiken how would you know what a person (Master, ect) was without them defining themselves.


Like i said, for me personally, labels are for general sake of clarity.  They offer a starting point.  Well and good.  But if i find that i feel more sub or more dom when my energy combines with the other persons energy, then i shed that general label and go with the flow of the moment, and ALLOW myself to have a new experience.  Different folks bring out different parts of me.  It is how i grow and discover areas of myself, that were perhaps dormant in me until someone came along that moved me in such a way.  i won't DENY that part of myself because it doesn't FIT the label. i won't tell myself that that part of me is not right or doesn't belong or that it is WRONG to feel a certain way, even if that certain way contradicts the label.
 
i am consistent in areas that matter most to me.  My integrity, my loyalty, my honor in keeping my word, my honesty.  Things of that nature.  i am still and will forever be exploring my desires and passions, etc.  i know i have more in me that needs to be explored and experienced.  i don't know all there is to know about me, so how can i adeptly and accurately label that which is still unknown at present?  Sometimes it takes meeting another with the right energy to ignite those areas within myself.  If i let a label deny that, when it happens, because it doesn't fit, then i am living in denial and i won't go there or do that to myself.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:08:07 AM   
happypervert


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quote:

Bullshit.  Explain to me how you can live a life without any definitions.

I think this thread is all about how there is nuance in language and perceptions as well as the motives behind why people use labels, and that some people "get it" while others don't. It is clear that you don't get it, and so you need definitions to define your world in black and white terms in the same way your arguments are spelled out here. However, you should consider the possibility that just because definitions are so important to you it doesn't mean they are so important for others who may be able to find clarity in meaning beyond what they get from a few simple words.

I know this ain't the type of explanation you were expecting, and I'm not optimistic you'll even *get it* either, but it is the best explanation I can provide.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 10/24/2006 9:11:26 AM >

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:17:16 AM   
raiken


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I prefer to wake up in the morning and take some time to observe the folgent sunrise.

Know whadda mean, Vern?

Ron  

Ron


i am officially declaring that no longer will a sunrise ever be folgent, but rather sub-lime.  From now on all sunrises are only sub-lime, and will be experienced and considered and viewed only from MY meaning of that label. To feel or view the sunrise any other way is to break the law of LABEL!  This will not be tolerated, accepted, understood or appreciated.  From now on the law of label dictates that any other view must be denied and not tolerated or appreciated.  Deny thyself for the rule of Label.  And you shall be rewareded with MY wonderful point of view to live by and cherish forever and ever. *grin That was fun, thanks Ron! *smile

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:21:28 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		You can only get away with this because W. C. Fields is dead, or there would be a hell of a fight in the offing...............

LOLOL,

You have a nice day, sweets!!!!

Ron

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:26:40 AM   
HollyS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shaylaSC

People just love to define themselves.


Yes... the problem comes when in defining oneself, the person extends it outward to define others according to his or her terms.

Earlier Noah said this:

quote:

  To some people the noun "dominant" may seem to work like the noun "fireman." I think it it more productive to see it as an evaluation than as a statement of fact. To see that it works more like "hero" (or "schmuck") than it does like "fireman" or "coffee pot."


This is a wonderful example of the difficulty in pinning down an evaluative word with a hard-and-fast definition.  Think, for example, of the firefighter who runs into a burning building to rescue a person inside.  Later he may be hailed on the news and among local leaders as a hero, while he himself refuses the title with the words "I'm not a hero, I was only doing my job."  What matters more - how he sees himself or how others see him?  My youngest daughter watches a show on the Disney Channel called "Higglytown Heroes" where everyone in the town is a hero - from the police officer to librarian to the pizza guy - because they "help people."  Clearly the word "hero" is fluid and can mean different things to different people.  And being able to say "I am a _________" may feel good and allow one to feel secure that he or she fits a set of criteria for oneself, but ultimately means little to someone else with a different set of criteria.  I admit that it's never occured to me that the pizza guy might be a hero.

There are many people who try to only use "Dominant" and "submissive" as adjectives that describe behavior rather than evaluative terms that describe a person or personality.  I'm guess I'm interested in the broader question of the difference in self-image between those who can self-define while allowing others the same benefit vs. those whose need to self-define includes defining all others around them.  Hrm.....

quote:

  ORIGINAL: Noah
Get clear on what you do. Get clear on what you like. Get clear on what you have to offer. Get clear on what you want. At that point I think that all of the goals of figuring out what you "ARE" are met--with the trivial exception that you haven't discovered what word to put at the end of the sentence: "I am _______." A small price to pay as it seems to me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: shaylaSC 
Maybe if people spent less time trying to figure out a definition that fit and more time getting to know a person from the inside out.......many more interesting topics could be born.


Words to live by.  Thank you.

~Holly

< Message edited by HollyS -- 10/24/2006 9:28:27 AM >

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:33:09 AM   
amayos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Why do we need definitions?


We need definitions to reference an action, place or thing with accuracy.

Words should mean things. If they do not, what you say or write has no meaning, and all you hope to do or convey might as well be written in water. If definitions did not matter, the volumes of reference we've deemed to sit upon our book shelves would distill ultimately to nothing more than babble. If but one of our numbers could equal any sum or equation, all math would be pointless.

If definitions did not matter, you would not be able to read what I've written with any degree of understanding.



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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:51:22 AM   
Dnomyar


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Status: offline 		How can you get clarity with out a difinition?

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:58:07 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

How can you get clarity with out a difinition?

It isnt that simple.
You may identify as dominant, yet we may meet and you cannot dominate me.  Now you label yourself as dominant, but that is only a starting point.  It does not add clarity to simply label.  You define by using a variety of words and conversing until you reach a common point.  If you do not reach the common point, then there is no reason to continue and you go your seperate ways.  That is how relationships are formed.  You do not simply say 'I am a friend' and then expect us to immediately be friends.
 
Peace and Rapture


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 10/24/2006 9:59:03 AM >

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 10:01:54 AM   
raiken


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Status: offline 		i know doms who are now subs and subs who are now switches and switches who are now mistresses and mistresses who are now slaves...thank goodness they didn't deny themselves and remain confined in their original labels.

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 10:03:47 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		This is fun!!

catize had a good idea last page bringing up the dog example. When I decided to get a dog, I had one image in mind that considered size, hair type, and breed traits. The replicants may have had a totally different image in their mind, but we were both looking for something generally labeled 'dog'. If I sent them out on their own saying it was okay for them to have a dog and they came back with a St. Bernard versus my labeled dog image of Chihuahua; I couldn't argue the fact they had a mandate to get something labeled 'dog', and they succeeded. Unless there is some established common ground definition, a single word label is useless.

But what about the dog? What's his self image? Among themselves they could be labeling themselves 'Gilgamesh' for all we know. Then there is their personal identity. Do they consider themselves the "Top Dog", I mean "Top Gilgamesh"? Are they a Gilgamesh pack leader? Submissive? Someone like the "Gilgamesh Whisperer" can determine that instantly but most of us just; "think he's cute" when looking at him; even if the 'him' turns out to be a 'her' upon closer inspection. When it comes right down to it regardless of how a Gilgamesh refers to themselves we determine how they are labeled once we get them home. Trainable, untrainable, pack leader, submissive, whatever; you can train them to fit the image of the label you had in mind when you first went shopping for a Gilgamesh. Your Gilgamesh will be different than just about every other Gilgamesh roaming the streets; yet when you meet a fellow Gilgamesh owner you believe you have something in common. At least you take one more step and ask what type of Gilgamesh you have before making a play date, or set up mating. A St. Bernard / Chihuahua marriage may either be funny or painful depending on the gender. Using the label as the only selection criteria doesn't work.

So who worries about labels? Mostly those whose only credibility comes from them.

A single word doesn't work, a novel length description doesn't either. You need common ground with concept on the part of the individuals making up the relationship. Common ground comes from communicating. Starting with the expectations of self and then going on to describe the expectations of their 'ideal' partner. The process concludes with the expectations of the resulted union, or the relationship dynamic. I've witnessed many "Masters" who are 'slaves' to their submissive's needs. But I respect that their relationship dynamic reconciles that dichotomy. Their relationship doesn't warrant any scrutiny by me or anyone else because it serves them.

I began a thread after returning from Folsom Fringe regarding the topic of "Servant Master". It was presentation given by Master Skip Casey who I know and respect. In many ways all Masters serve and all submissives take. I like to say both examples, on the surface contrary to standard labeling definitions, take into consideration the ultimate service to what should be the goal - a relationship. It just so happens that I agree with Master Skip on his position that the labels "Master" and "slave" have no application to individuals outside of a relationship. Dominant and submissive are appropriate because they describe personality traits independent of the need of a partner to define them. But on the subject of Master/slave, I take it one step further. The labels are also just as meaningless to anyone else outside the relationship.
 
For that reason we always introduce ourselves as Merc & beth. What we call each other has meaning. Anyone else can call us whatever you like, as long as you call us when you're having a party!

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 10:07:27 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

i know doms who are now subs and subs who are now switches and switches who are now mistresses and mistresses who are now slaves...thank goodness they didn't deny themselves and remain confined in their original labels.


Amen to that!
I cannot understand for the life of me why people cannot just introduce themselves as themselves.  I am .dark. - whether I am submissive/top means absolutely nothing to anyone - in BDSM or outside of it.  The only person that it matters to is the person I submit to or top - at that specific moment.  And holding that label or walking around wearing it like a badge means absoultely fuck all.  I can go into a munch, meet LaM and peach or amayos or raiken and treat them all exactly the same.  Polite and friendly.  That is all.
 
Peace and Rapture

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 10:12:48 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Bullshit.  Explain to me how you can live a life without any definitions.


Methinks you have let my sarcasm fly waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over your head.  (I agree with you)
 
We all yearn for SOME  kind of identity.  Be it the 'free-spirit'.. the ever so 'open-minded I'll do anything no-limits' type, the pseudo intellectuals.. they all have a name.

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I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 10:17:46 AM   
Aileen68


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Status: offline 		People need definitions because it seems that once they decide that yes, they do want to be tied and gagged, then all rational brain function stops and they loose the ability to think for themselves in any way, shape or form.  All common sense goes out the window and they need others to lead them to the light of knowledge. 

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 10:31:59 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
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From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Definitions make it easier explain to someone else how you see yourself. I dont think someone should confine themselves strictly to the definitions they have collected for themselves, nor do I think they should live for or by them. I have a collection of things that define me, I am not simply one or another of them.  I am ALL of them together.  Take one or two out, and you potentialy have someone else.

Hopefuly that makes some sense to someone else reading it.  I am still waking up, so it might be a bit less than my normal coherent self.

DV

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Snarko Ergo Sum
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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 10:45:59 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
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Status: offline 		Being able to FLEX in their definitions as they grow would then be a healthy approach, yes?
 
Allowing themselves the use of a label as a beginning point of reference, but knowing they will always be learning, growing and changing.  I believe it is best to use a label as long as one is willing to give themselves FREEDOM beyond said label to grow, and not deny new feelings, even if they conflict with the current label.  Especially those who are new to all of this and have so much to learn and experience.  Pick a nice label as a starting point then go from there and have fun with trying on all the hats to ensure the perfect fit.  For some folks won't know what truely fits until they try each one on for size.  i call myself a conglamorate, i am a bit of everything. *smile It depends on who i am with in the moment, that determines which parts of me are more pronounced than others, but yet, all the parts remain intact.  Different folks bring out different parts of me.  When i am with one person i may feel deeply submissive, but another may call out my dominant side.

< Message edited by raiken -- 10/24/2006 10:49:52 AM >

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 11:06:20 AM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		I haven't read all the posts in the previous pages, so forgive me if I repeat someone else's reply.

The short answer, in my opinion, is that people want to see where they "fit" in the scheme of WIITWD and to others.  Perhaps for purposes of comparison, compatability, etc.  I think that new people find this especially interesting, albeit confusing at times, in an effort to see what the different levels of experience are, or what other people consider to fall into that particular definition.

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