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RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/24/2006 8:47:00 PM   
amayos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Could you give an example of "the banal misuse of an established term"?

Who "established" the term "slave"? If you're a Webster's fan, fine, haul out your Webster's; you won't find a single definition in there that corresponds to what we in the BDSM world call a "slave."


You are in fact correct; many in BDSM use the term incorrectly—thus offering an example for your opening question. I have included those definitions which refute the sole chattel concept, and are applicable uses in BDSM. These definitions can easily be found online and in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language, among other resources.

Slave:

2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person.
3. a drudge


Edited to add: I am done with this thread!



< Message edited by amayos -- 10/24/2006 8:52:53 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 4 - 10/24/2006 8:54:29 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		As with any "group," there will be common language that is universally agreed upon, and language that is not.  I tend to think rather literally, so broad uses for words sometimes throw me.  In reading definitions threads, I find it interesting to read other points of view, and sometimes an idea or two is represented that makes sense to me that I would not have considered before.  However, most of those threads end up in silly arguments and cease to hold my attention.

The use of words is tricky because they can have many meanings.  I learned that the hard way in speaking another language and using what I thought was a universal term...only to find out that in that particular context, it meant something entirely different.

Even in the wonderful group of CM, I was once told by one respected poster that my definition meant nothing if not pulled from Oxford itself (using Websters was deemed too easy, it seemed, lol).  All righty then.  I do tend to be one of those believers of traditional uses of language. It is easier for me to comprehend.  For example, "irregardless" bugs the stuffing out of me and yet it is becoming incorporated into our normal language.  There is regarding, and regardless.  Irregardless just means regarding.  It can get ya dizzy, ya know?  In this way, I think the evolution of language can be a disservice.  Then again, I can be much looser with words than others are, so it's a matter of perspective.


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/24/2006 9:16:34 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Could you give an example of "the banal misuse of an established term"?

Who "established" the term "slave"? If you're a Webster's fan, fine, haul out your Webster's; you won't find a single definition in there that corresponds to what we in the BDSM world call a "slave."


You are in fact correct; many in BDSM use the term incorrectly—thus offering an example for your opening question. I have included those definitions which refute the sole chattel concept, and are applicable uses in BDSM. These definitions can easily be found online and in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language, among other resources.

Slave:

2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person.
3. a drudge


Edited to add: I am done with this thread!




Sadist:

One who teases those who like to read his points of view, then leaves them wanting more.

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 9:18:19 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


I would rather observe and attempt to arrive at my own understanding of what something is, as opposed to cutting and pasting a label on something and think I understood what it is.

But this is just me...

Sinergy



But..... But Sinergy!!!!  Isn't that considered a (gasp!)  JUDGMENT!???:
 


This is true.  I have not stated I personally do not have my own opinion or judgement about things.  I am simply not such a Legend In My Own Mind that I think everybody else should agree with it.

However the thread is actually about coming up with a agreed upon set of definitions for D/s or BDSM among an eclectic set of practitioners of whatever it is the individuals practice..

Can we please stick with the topic being discussed?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/24/2006 9:28:45 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, since you're done with this thread, you won't see this response, but ...

Neither "a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person" nor "drudge" is exactly what anyone means by "slave" in the BDSM world.  Those definitions may cover some of what "slave" means (although none of my slaves have been drudges), but they certainly don't cover all of it--not even, I don't think, the essence of it.

And you know that.  If you really believe you can find the definitions of all the important concepts in your life in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language, then I'm glad you've found something that works for you.  There are other people for whom those definitions aren't going to be adequate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Who "established" the term "slave"? If you're a Webster's fan, fine, haul out your Webster's; you won't find a single definition in there that corresponds to what we in the BDSM world call a "slave."


You are in fact correct; many in BDSM use the term incorrectly—thus offering an example for your opening question. I have included those definitions which refute the sole chattel concept, and are applicable uses in BDSM. These definitions can easily be found online and in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language, among other resources.

Slave:

2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person.
3. a drudge

Edited to add: I am done with this thread!

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/24/2006 9:45:14 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

There are other people for whom those definitions aren't going to be adequate.




Dont forget the people for which no universally agreed on definition is going to be adequate.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 4 - 10/24/2006 10:07:35 PM   
sailorthor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

For example, "irregardless" bugs the stuffing out of me and yet it is becoming incorporated into our normal language.  There is regarding, and regardless.  Irregardless just means regarding.  It can get ya dizzy, ya know?  In this way, I think the evolution of language can be a disservice.  Then again, I can be much looser with words than others are, so it's a matter of perspective.




"Begs the question" is my favorite universal misuse.  Almost always the person meant "Raises the question," indicating that the question is appropriate for asking.  "Begs the question" is declaring the question unfit for the asking.  In essence:  the question is already answered, so why ask it?  (or, more accurately, the petitio principii applies - circular reasoning).

Enjoy Life,
SailorThor

< Message edited by sailorthor -- 10/24/2006 10:20:42 PM >

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RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/24/2006 10:35:06 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		The reality of "what is" should arbitrate over our descriptions of it.

For me in the BDSM scene, this means the following. Do I want to be with a given person? Does she turn me on and does she like me too? Whether she acts like a slave, a sub, or switch, or Dom is besides the point. If somehow I get caught up in the jargon, terminology and typecasting that goes with BDSM, I may just miss out on the flesh and blood person before me.







< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/24/2006 10:46:36 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 10:45:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Ma semblable!

My understanding of the "beg" in "begging the question" has always been slightly different, however.  "Begging the question" means purporting to prove a proposition by assuming the very proposition that was to be proven in the first place.  The "question" is the proposition; "begging" that question means requesting it in one's (fallacious) proof.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sailorthor

"Begs the question" is my favorite universal misuse.  Almost always the person meant "Raises the question," indicating that the question is appropriate for asking.  "Begs the question" is declaring the question unfit for the asking.  In essence:  the question is already answered, so why ask it?  (or, more accurately, the petitio principii applies - circular reasoning).


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/24/2006 10:47:01 PM >

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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 12:27:33 AM   
Iskander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl
i tend to think that when you add the word 'true' and 'because', it then becomes an implication.
 
"i am a true artist because i went to art school."  Couldn't that imply going to art school is a requirement to being a 'true' artist?   But what about those who are true artists who never went to art school?  What are they then? 


DaVinci is a true artist because he painted the Mona Lisa... Is purely a statement about DaVinci, and has no reflection whatsoever on other people/artists...

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl
"i am a true intellect because i have an IQ of 200."  Can you deny there is an implication that anything less than a 200 IQ is not a 'true' intellect?

Yes I can deny that there is that implication there because I know that less than 99.999% of people have an intelect of 200, because I know that Einstein, Newton and Lincoln had lower IQ's..
Just like I know that you weren't talking about yourself in that statement, that it was an example, because unlike a computer I can take things in a non-literal context...

Iskander...



(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 12:49:32 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		We don't know anything about the IQ's of historical figures; the estimates one finds here and there (like the ones by Catherine M. Cox in 1926) are groundless travesties.  The only way to generate an IQ score is to have the subject take an IQ test.  And that's controversial enough...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander

Yes I can deny that there is that implication there because I know that less than 99.999% of people have an intelect of 200, because I know that Einstein, Newton and Lincoln had lower IQ's.

(in reply to Iskander)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 2:15:20 AM   
Iskander


Posts: 264
Joined: 9/26/2006
Status: offline 		I think we can safely say they were lower than 200... But yes I do agree that IQ tests are pretty dubious things...
It was the denial of the statement that matters here however, not the validity of IQ tests...
My original point was that defining something does not exclude it from other definitions, or that one definition (with or without the true tag) does not automatically invalidate other (true) definitions of said label... You only have to look at a dictionary for proof of that...

Iskander...






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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 5:51:53 AM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander

DaVinci is a true artist because he painted the Mona Lisa... Is purely a statement about DaVinci, and has no reflection whatsoever on other people/artists...

 
But most people would agree with this...or even consider it a fact, no?  The example you used of "I am a true submissive because I am a painslut" is a subjective statement that has absolutely no grounding in fact to begin with.  If there was some merit to 'painsluts are true submissives' then someone referring to themselves in such a way would be totally understandable. 
 
i do know what you are saying Iskander.  If a dom says "i am a true Master because i trained under the great Master John Doe", he is not actually saying that those who didn't are not true Masters...but i still think that most would take that as an implication.

quote:


Yes I can deny that there is that implication there because I know that less than 99.999% of people have an intelect of 200, because I know that Einstein, Newton and Lincoln had lower IQ's..
Just like I know that you weren't talking about yourself in that statement, that it was an example, because unlike a computer I can take things in a non-literal context...

Iskander...


Okay, i used 200...but i could very well have used a 125 IQ.  It was the point that someone makes a statement about themselves that they are a 'true' something that i was trying to make.  Someone with a 125 IQ could make the same statement....does not mean it's a fact.  It's merely his opinion of himself. 
 
And no, i was not referring to myself here (god, if i had an IQ of 200 i probably wouldn't be here...i'd probably be out winning some nobel prize or something....lol).
 
DG

(in reply to Iskander)
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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 6:13:04 AM   
Iskander


Posts: 264
Joined: 9/26/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl
 The example you used of "I am a true submissive because I am a painslut" is a subjective statement that has absolutely no grounding in fact to begin with.

If it's fact for the person saying that then thats fine by me... truth is often subjective...

But anyway, wasn't arguing over the true thing again, more about the fluidity of definitions...

Iskander...




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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/25/2006 7:13:08 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The reality of "what is" should arbitrate over our descriptions of it.

For me in the BDSM scene, this means the following. Do I want to be with a given person? Does she turn me on and does she like me too? Whether she acts like a slave, a sub, or switch, or Dom is besides the point. If somehow I get caught up in the jargon, terminology and typecasting that goes with BDSM, I may just miss out on the flesh and blood person before me.



Exactly.  I guess that is where i have always reached am impass with certain folks.  Once i associate myself with a label, it seems that anything that does not fit what others perceive to be a part of that label, gets cut out of their mental picture of who i am on the whole. It has been my earlier experiences that has led me to shy away from labels and definitions. 

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RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/25/2006 7:43:37 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The reality of "what is" should arbitrate over our descriptions of it.

For me in the BDSM scene, this means the following. Do I want to be with a given person? Does she turn me on and does she like me too? Whether she acts like a slave, a sub, or switch, or Dom is besides the point. If somehow I get caught up in the jargon, terminology and typecasting that goes with BDSM, I may just miss out on the flesh and blood person before me.



Exactly.  I guess that is where i have always reached am impass with certain folks.  Once i associate myself with a label, it seems that anything that does not fit what others perceive to be a part of that label, gets cut out of their mental picture of who i am on the whole. It has been my earlier experiences that has led me to shy away from labels and definitions. 


And that, to me, is what is the most frustrating thing about this:  those that want to misuse labels through the application of only narrow definitions to each particular label and not open things up to a discussion of what all is entailed in the label the person has applied to themselves have made the rest of us somewhat fearful of applying a label to ourselves.

As I noted in an earlier post, I am not going to be forced by those types of folks into going their own narrow path nor will I be join those who go on the free-wheeling path of "my label means whatever I choose it to mean even if that word no longer has any relevance to any real-world dictionary because that's too confining so instead of modifying the definition, I'll just change it". 

I will do as I've stated previously...I will go with my labels and definitions for me, ask others about what their labels are for themselves and THEN open up the conversation before forming my opinion.  At least...~smiles a bit lopsidedly~...I'll try.  (edited because I realize that even I...the Grand Puba...am not perfect)


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RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 5 (finis) - 10/25/2006 8:42:12 AM   
NJSubGirl


Posts: 47
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
Ummm...that was the entire point!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, since you're done with this thread, you won't see this response, but ...

Neither "a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person" nor "drudge" is exactly what anyone means by "slave" in the BDSM world.




(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 10:40:03 AM   
Smythe


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Joined: 12/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Ma semblable!

My understanding of the "beg" in "begging the question" has always been slightly different, however. "Begging the question" means purporting to prove a proposition by assuming the very proposition that was to be proven in the first place. The "question" is the proposition; "begging" that question means requesting it in one's (fallacious) proof.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sailorthor

"Begs the question" is my favorite universal misuse. Almost always the person meant "Raises the question," indicating that the question is appropriate for asking. "Begs the question" is declaring the question unfit for the asking. In essence: the question is already answered, so why ask it? (or, more accurately, the petitio principii applies - circular reasoning).




LaM:

Can you restate this propostion for those of us with IQs under 200?

i agree with sailorthor about the proper usage of "begging the question" but I don't quite get your elaboration.

Smythe



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Euripides

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 11:04:46 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		Does haveing a  200 means that someone is smarter than you. What if yours is only 50 and  know something he dosent. Are you smarter than him .

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/25/2006 11:15:28 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The holy bible is the infallable word of god, because it was written by god.........


Or, if you ever watch the house of commons on cspan  when everybody cries 'Question' (meaning to call the question to vote) and the fellow with the long nose for looking down at you, glares sternly over his bi-focals and intones 'order, order' and 'for shame'...........that is actually begging the question in the sense that Lam is alluding to......but the proof of that to the assembled would require seeking agreement on so many definitions that the internet is not big enough to contain it.....for some of you this may be a working (albiet) fuzzy definition that is acceptable, but for others there will an uninteresting and pedantic diatribe in how this is not so.........................

So, does everybody out here understand the concept of 'a good blowjob' or is there other than subjective and established criteria that can be established as definitive?

Or, how about I say, wow, that was a good blowjob, and you percieve that based on your own experience.........and think that we are not talking about two entirely different phenomena.

Ron Wittgenstein......(for Noah)

(I re-read and need to note:  What the assemblage crying 'question' does, not the charge de affairs de bifocals)

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 10/25/2006 11:16:55 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 180
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