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RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 6:50:20 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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He is not my Master

Secondly, I wonder why you are so much into counting how many times someone mentions their profession, or responds to a thread, or any other number of things you expound about... on second thought I do not really wonder at all. I provided a link that you asked for, you could have thanked me for it, but I guess that is not your style... have a nice evening

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 81

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 6:54:46 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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I'm wondering why you would contibute nine times (well, now it's ten times) to a thread about a subject that you think is tired and broken.

Now you can prolong this nonsense by responding with some more ill-willed bullshit, or you can keep quiet. Either way, not much more of value is going to be said about this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

In regards your other question about how many times I have posted, please explain why you are interested in my motivation for the things I do?

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 82

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 6:55:54 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

Well at least nobody's arguing about definitions...lol

DG

(in reply to adaddysgirl)

Post #: 83

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 6:57:17 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

That would make you a member of the minority then, Sinergy.

Juxtaposing your comment against the smashing, bang-up job the Majority Party has done in running the Government of the United States, I will take this as the most profound compliment I have received in months.

Thank you

Sinergy

Anyone able and willing to think for themselves should feel good about it.

Now, I won't infer that everyone not in the Majority party is able to reason, much less well LOL.

< Message edited by Level -- 10/23/2006 7:01:03 PM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 84

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 7:00:13 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

Well at least nobody's arguing about definitions...lol

DG

Define "argue"......

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to adaddysgirl)

Post #: 85

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 7:02:53 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
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~fast reply~ ~sigh~ i was actually enjoying this thread because there was no freakin' drama.

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(in reply to Level)

Post #: 86

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 7:10:17 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'm wondering why you would contibute nine times (well, now it's ten times) to a thread about a subject that you think is tired and broken.

Now you can prolong this nonsense by responding with some more ill-willed bullshit, or you can keep quiet. Either way, not much more of value is going to be said about this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

In regards your other question about how many times I have posted, please explain why you are interested in my motivation for the things I do?

Hello Lordandmaster,

You asked for further information. We provided it to you.

Rather than say "thank you", you became defensive and argumentative.

Enjoy your evening,

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 87

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 7:11:15 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

~fast reply~ ~sigh~ i was actually enjoying this thread because there was no freakin' drama.

Define drama.......

(Sorry....nothing personal....was just making a reference )

DG

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 88

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:50:46 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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How do we identify a dog? We all know that a dog walks on four legs, has a tail and is covered with fur. But that could also describe a cat or a rat. When we look at a dog, we know it isn’t a cat, or a rat, but how do we determine what makes it a dog?

Perhaps the distinguishing doggy attribute is the sound it makes; a dog barks.

For general purposes, then, a dog is an animal that walks on four legs, has a tail, is covered with fur, and barks……………..but
But some dogs have no fur.
But some dogs have no tail.
But some dogs make a sound that is more of a yip than a bark and some do not bark at all.

There are different kinds of dogs. Some of them have genetically enforced talents that we humans make use of; herders, hunters, pointers, retrievers, guards
Some of them seem to have no purpose at all, yet they are dogs.
Aren’t they?

If it is true that most of us can identify a dog as a dog when we see one, does that mean my dog must look like yours and act like yours and make the same sound as your dog?

Is one any less of a dog than another?
Are some more dog-ly ?

If you can point to a dog in a line-up of various animals, can you adequately explain which characteristics make a dog what it is, rather than a cat or a rat?

It might be that my reasoning here lacks something, because I am sure that there is some hard scientific data that determines the question of what makes a dog. I doubt that most of us know those scientific facts, and if you are like me, you don’t feel the need to know.
To name it “Looks like a dog to me” is enough………for me.

My point, I think, is to show the difficulty in defining something factual such as a dog. How impossible then to provide words that describe dominance and submission in a way that is meaningful to everybody. It is akin to nailing a patch of fog to a wall.

To the OP, I agree it can’t be done. As for your question on whether or not it serves a purpose all I can say is that I do garner new ways of looking at it and I enjoy the posts that create respectful debate rather than rancor.

(And on the question of same sex marriages, I believe the word spouse would do nicely.)

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 89

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 3:40:08 AM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It comes in waves, and we're in the middle of one right now: The let's-post-yet-another-thread-about-definitions wave. I've never understood it, and now I have to ask what people think we get out of it.

Just some examples.

In the thread about gay marriage, someone observed that when a male and a female get married, they are called "husband" and "wife." What, this person asked, would you call two men or two women who got married?

And my question is...

Who the fuck cares? They can call themselves whatever they want. Why does it matter to anyone else?

More examples...

The endless threads we have about the difference between a sub and a slave, or the difference between a dom and a master, or whether someone is a dom or a sub just because he or she claims to be a dom or a sub, or whether someone is a master just because he claims to be a master, or whether this can only happen when the "community" recognizes the person as a master...

These are all pseudo-questions, because they all depend entirely on definitions. They answer themselves the minute you settle on the definition that suits you. When people seem to be disagreeing about questions like this, they're not disagreeing about anything in reality or anything that matters; they're just disagreeing about the definitions.

Sure, some people think it's a Very Bad State of Affairs that people run around with incompatible definitions of things, but even if it's really such a disturbing situation, it should be obvious by now that you're never going to get the rest of the world to abide by your definitions. So why not give it a rest? A REAL question would be ... What are the possible consequences of doing such-and-such, and has anyone on here done it before? Why does this-and-that make me feel this way? Am I being selfish when I feel that my dom should do this-or-that? Do other people feel the same way? Those are real questions. "If a girl is unowned, is she still a slave?" is not a real question.

Because as much as you and others have figured things out, many others have not.

D (owner of j)

_____________________________

Possibly.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 90

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 3:42:28 AM

cuddleheart50

Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

I dont need definitions, I just live my life as I like.

_____________________________

Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.

(in reply to Wolfie648)

Post #: 91

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 4:13:10 AM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

Welcome to my world LAM, it does not matter if you started this thread with the purest of intentions; you have used the "D" word.

Here's your flame retardent suit, the firewall has been extended, bomb shelter is in the basement. Grins, bring Peach along for the make your own toy party the weekend before Halloween..

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 92

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 5:55:06 AM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

~fast reply~ ~sigh~ i was actually enjoying this thread because there was no freakin' drama.

Catching up on this thread this morning, just before I got to the little shoving match I had been mentally composing a little "three-cheers" post congratulating the OP-er especially and all concerned for a nice discussion.

On balance I think it has been a worthwhile discussion. I know that I have read some things which helped clarify my thinking on the subject. So here are my thanks to LAM and Sinergy and Julia for all of their thoughtful and worthwhile ideas, many of which I agree with and some I don't. I won't go on to list all the credits for the thread because I really think just about every post represented someone's effort to either offer a worthwhile observation, ask a sincere question, or otherwise move the conversation along in positive ways.

I get the impression that a few people actually waded all the way through one or two of my posts. Imagine that.

I didn't at any point see this as a stir-the-shit conversation. I saw the OP trying to rise above the typical rancor on these subjects and trying to find a more perspicuous view of the whole business. I read him as open-mindedly soliciting comments from others which might further clarify how and why it is that so many conversations on these issues seems to go astray in the same old ways, creating more heat than light and leaving more division than understanding in their wake.

But, hey, that's just me, as they say. And by the way, the ability and willingness to sort one's stated opinions from one's factual claims and own them both for what they are is admirable to me. I'm not poking fun at anyone.

Maybe a hot button got pushed, maybe someone didn't have their coffee yet. As Sinergy helpfully reminded us recently, this medium lacks most of the extra-verbal cues of conversation but can proceed at a conversational pace and that being so can lead to a bunch of trouble. Maybe we all have some unfortunate habits of what looks to others like defensiveness because of how things so often go around here. Hey. I can get over that.

My thanks to all for an (almost completely) nice thread so far.

(I mean, we can't all be angelic, right?)

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 93

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 6:46:51 AM

raiken

Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

I dont need definitions, I just live my life as I like.

Exactly the way i feel. Sometimes when i try too hard to define something or someone...i get so far off on tangents, i loose the original content and meaning. Sometimes when i try to define an emotion or a feeling i loose that emotion, i dilute it at times by adding logic to what is not capable of being logical, all neatly packaged. Things get too cluttered with thought, and thrown completely off balance. Sometimes the best things are those that AREN'T able to be neatly defined. It keeps the wonder alive, it keeps the excitement of adventure of the heart and mind alive. i asked myself along time ago, is it the definition, that is most important, or is it the way this person or thing causes me to feel, to be aroused and energized. Some of the best things are best when they are not overly questioned, but just accepted. some of the best answers are those that have no solid conclusion, but leave in the element of wonder and surprise. Nothing wrong with wondering, nothing wrong with leaving something open ended to allow for more change and growth. Sometimes to define is to confine and limit future potential.

Definitions on certain levels and in certain areas help to clarify, sure. But what is most important to me, is how i feel about what i am experiencing, and no definition in the entire world could explain the minutia of the heightened condition of the mind/heart/spirit. All else added will only be known in my mind as a vaild attempt, and nothing more. To define is to control to some extent. i know for myself i have felt a lack of control when i didn't fully understand the nature of my emotions and feelings, and felt that to belong, or to be a part of something i had to fit in somewhere. i felt i had to have a definition, clear cut and fully explained. But then i realized that i didn't have to be defined at all. i just am. i just live. i just feel and experience, who i am and who those are around me. My life will continue to be undefined by definition. *smile Just some off beat thought from an off beat type of gal. *grin

Thanks LAM for the thread, and thanks to Noah and julia and Sinergy, and others, this was a good read. *smile

(in reply to cuddleheart50)

Post #: 94

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 6:59:45 AM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

quote:

How impossible then to provide words that describe dominance and submission in a way that is meaningful to everybody.

This is basically my take on it too. The definition discussions are only useful to show that there are a range of definitions around any of the labels; a label is a useful starting point to understand a region where folks lie in the kinky spectrum but not a bullseye with absolute precision.

The craziness comes when some folks insist we must agree on what each label means -- it ain't gonna happen, and that is also unrealistic because it attempts to break a continuum into discrete chunks and eliminate grey areas as if they don't exist; that seems to me to be even less accurate than having labels we all understand are imprecise and have a lot of wiggle room.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 10/24/2006 7:03:37 AM >

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

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Post #: 95

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 7:12:32 AM

LeatherBentOne

Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline

Take what you want and throw the rest away. Plain and simple.

. . . but then I'm not a haggler and have a unique filtering system to wade and sort through what I determine to be the ridiculous as well as the sublime. Although, I am fond of structure in most aspects of my life, I'm seldom caught off-balance by things that don't fit neatly in boxes. I just set aside a box that says miscellaneous. I guess all this comes naturally to me without thinking about it as one who likes to organize my thoughts to eliminate what I consider to be clutter. I'm all for looking at the what-for and what-ifs of a situation but realise that I can keep an open mind with one foot on each side of the fence but am just as happy to stay there instead of beating a horse to death with endless attempts to define what already works for me and my sub. I think it all boils down to the "I have to be right all the time because I have no confidence or self-esteem" therefore I have something to prove to myself" mentality and not being okay in your own skin, I choose to find fault in others.

I say, "Who cares. As long as it works, why change it?"

LBO

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 96

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 7:52:21 AM

shaylaSC

Posts: 37
Joined: 10/23/2006
Status: offline

People just love to define themselves. Titles seem to take a great part in everything we do. Even through our professional life we are labeled.

Maybe if people spent less time trying to figure out a definition that fit and more time getting to know a person from the inside out.......many more interesting topics could be born.

Just my take,
shayla

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 97

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 8:13:24 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
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Status: offline

Labeled: 5 people. Master, Domme, Switch, submissive, slave.

UnLabeled: 5 people

Labels are necessary.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 98

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 8:33:41 AM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I would rather observe and attempt to arrive at my own understanding of what something is, as opposed to cutting and pasting a label on something and think I understood what it is.

But this is just me...

Sinergy

But..... But Sinergy!!!! Isn't that considered a (gasp!) JUDGMENT!???:

I must concur with Benji... one must conform to the idea of non-conformity in the lifestyle or be damned (labeled) to vanilla hell!

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 99

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/24/2006 8:45:40 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
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Bullshit. Explain to me how you can live a life without any definitions.

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 100

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