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Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 9:38:19 AM

Lordandmaster

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It comes in waves, and we're in the middle of one right now: The let's-post-yet-another-thread-about-definitions wave. I've never understood it, and now I have to ask what people think we get out of it.

Just some examples.

In the thread about gay marriage, someone observed that when a male and a female get married, they are called "husband" and "wife." What, this person asked, would you call two men or two women who got married?

And my question is...

Who the fuck cares? They can call themselves whatever they want. Why does it matter to anyone else?

More examples...

The endless threads we have about the difference between a sub and a slave, or the difference between a dom and a master, or whether someone is a dom or a sub just because he or she claims to be a dom or a sub, or whether someone is a master just because he claims to be a master, or whether this can only happen when the "community" recognizes the person as a master...

These are all pseudo-questions, because they all depend entirely on definitions. They answer themselves the minute you settle on the definition that suits you. When people seem to be disagreeing about questions like this, they're not disagreeing about anything in reality or anything that matters; they're just disagreeing about the definitions.

Sure, some people think it's a Very Bad State of Affairs that people run around with incompatible definitions of things, but even if it's really such a disturbing situation, it should be obvious by now that you're never going to get the rest of the world to abide by your definitions. So why not give it a rest? A REAL question would be ... What are the possible consequences of doing such-and-such, and has anyone on here done it before? Why does this-and-that make me feel this way? Am I being selfish when I feel that my dom should do this-or-that? Do other people feel the same way? Those are real questions. "If a girl is unowned, is she still a slave?" is not a real question.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/23/2006 9:40:01 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 9:44:17 AM

Kalira

Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
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Well, I was going to be flippant, but I think I will behave myself for a change and just say that yes, I agree with you here.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 2

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 9:45:18 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
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People need labels in order to justify what they do, creating labels is a form of power, albiet a petty one. Usually those most concerned with labels are those with the most insecurity (which is of course, me making a label) about who and what they are.

Some people need others to set boundaries for them (religion, politics, groups) and gravitate to that, others reject boundaries, some reject one set only to gravitate to another.

We will always have people who crave labels, others reject them.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 3

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 9:49:41 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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I see labels useful as starting points. And that's about it. There will never be consensus about what they mean. It's just like the silly "submission is s gift" thing. And the being "real" and "true" thing.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 4

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 9:54:57 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
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People need terms to have a common language and for communication purposes. I would hate to have to tell everyone for example my entire submission level views every single time the subject came out instead of using a couple of words that have meaning to me and I hope gives the other person a general idea. Definitions help form some common ground and make it easier to communicate.

The problem comes not hearing people's deifinitions on terms but the fact too many people, not all, instead of this is what it is to me and leaves it alone insisit on judging other people by their definitions or maybe more common if they dissagree with another's definition they there ego/pride gets a hit and flaming on some level starts up.

As far as the threads with questions you brought up and basically can only be answered by a person's own definitions, this is a message board and people of different natures and personalities are on the board. Topics are going to range from interesting and informative to repetitive and roll your eyes. Know the difference between them. The person's opinion reading them. :)

Give me an active board with topics that I have the right not to read or reply to over an inactive board that is starving for input anyday.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 5

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 9:57:09 AM

Lordandmaster

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Well, the purpose wasn't to get people to stop posting things I don't like; the purpose was to ask what we get out of all the definitions threads. If the answer is "nothing," then all right, I'll just avoid those threads. I thought MAYBE there was some value to them that I've been missing.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 6

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 9:58:53 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
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From: Philadelphia, PA
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Insecurity and uncertainty.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 7

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:00:16 AM

shadevarr

Posts: 360
Joined: 7/2/2006
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I see labels as a necessary evil to facilitate explaining your dynamic. Most people get a fairly good picture in their head when they hear "Sadistic Daddy Dom". It gives them a place to start, kinda like telling someone what your occupation is.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 8

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:01:43 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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On occasion someone will post their definition of something which makes me re-evaluate my own definition and/or see it in a different way. That allows me to grow and I'm all about personal growth.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to MisPandora)

Post #: 9

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:02:27 AM

Aileen68

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People like the little boxes in their lives clearly defined even if it means fighting like cats and dogs to get their point across. Maybe it helps to make them feel more justified in their choices within this lifestyle.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 10

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:03:51 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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It's newbies who haven't figured out that there aren't just "answers" waiting to be picked up from someone. They just want to be told what to do, how to fit in and "get it."

The either figure it out, or create a system where they believe there are "answers" and that they have received them.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 11

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:15:07 AM

Sinergy

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

People need terms to have a common language and for communication purposes. I would hate to have to tell everyone for example my entire submission level views every single time the subject came out instead of using a couple of words that have meaning to me and I hope gives the other person a general idea. Definitions help form some common ground and make it easier to communicate.

Hello A/all,

My first thought on the quote would be to wonder why the one who posted it feels the need to describe her submission to other people.

But taking that as moot, my next comment would be that getting a group of people to agree on a particular definition to any specific "label" has about as much chance as any of us being able to herd cats.

Every time this topic is brought up, what seems to happen is everybody splits off into their own group, proceeds to either snipe away other people's definitions, and self-righteously complain that other people dont agree with the definitions that they are unable to conceive of being incorrect or wrong.

From my own perspective, the people most adamant in defining WIITWD seem to be the least tolerant and respectful of those who do things differently than they do.

To make it personal to me, the only person I care to have accept, understand, and exist within the definitions and labels I put on what I do would be my submissive.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 12

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:20:56 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It comes in waves, and we're in the middle of one right now: The let's-post-yet-another-thread-about-definitions wave. I've never understood it, and now I have to ask what people think we get out of it.

Just some examples.

In the thread about gay marriage, someone observed that when a male and a female get married, they are called "husband" and "wife." What, this person asked, would you call two men or two women who got married?

And my question is...

Who the fuck cares? They can call themselves whatever they want. Why does it matter to anyone else?

More examples...

The endless threads we have about the difference between a sub and a slave, or the difference between a dom and a master, or whether someone is a dom or a sub just because he or she claims to be a dom or a sub, or whether someone is a master just because he claims to be a master, or whether this can only happen when the "community" recognizes the person as a master...

These are all pseudo-questions, because they all depend entirely on definitions. They answer themselves the minute you settle on the definition that suits you. When people seem to be disagreeing about questions like this, they're not disagreeing about anything in reality or anything that matters; they're just disagreeing about the definitions.

Sure, some people think it's a Very Bad State of Affairs that people run around with incompatible definitions of things, but even if it's really such a disturbing situation, it should be obvious by now that you're never going to get the rest of the world to abide by your definitions. So why not give it a rest? A REAL question would be ... What are the possible consequences of doing such-and-such, and has anyone on here done it before? Why does this-and-that make me feel this way? Am I being selfish when I feel that my dom should do this-or-that? Do other people feel the same way? Those are real questions. "If a girl is unowned, is she still a slave?" is not a real question.

Funny that you should start this thread because I was just thinking along these lines this morning as I was getting ready and driving to work.

I was wondering why, seemingly intelligent and sane people get soooooooo stupid and insane in an argument over word definitions and the need to browbeat others into their "one true way" load of crapola. I have actually begun to avoid those threads because it changes my respect level of the people doing the squabbling. For me, labels have never mattered. I could give a shit what they put on my business card, just pay me for the work I do and leave it at that.

I understand that there is a minimum of a general idea required to let people know which end of the whip you want to be on and wether the opposite party has a pecker, breast or in some cases both. But, beyond that I really do not care. Soooooo, I was thinking why does it matter so little to me and SOOOO much to others?

To satisfy my own curiousity I just decided that it comes down to personality. In all parts of my life I am not a heavily structured (understatement of the decade, maybe century) person. I don't have a pretty filing system for my personal paperwork (its in a drawer somewhere, how far back or deep depends on how old it is), my closet has zero organization, I have never and refuse to ever set an itinerary for a vacation, so on and so forth. So, I am going to go out on a limb and say that the people that actually do organise and file, create itineraries and stick to them, etc etc etc....could also be the type of person that needs more concise clarification in WIIWD to be comfortable within their own skin. That perhaps they are just too uneasy with a looser structure like mine.

I honestly hope that this is the case because I am getting sick to death of the "I'm right and everyone that does not agree with me is wrong" energy of those threads. In my eyes it just makes the combatants look like fools.........then again, I am weird and think there really are more important things to get upset about.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 13

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:28:26 AM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

I carry with me a set of "working definitions" that are generally flexible and fluid. They help me organize my thinking. Sometimes I like reading a thread about something I've already gone over once or twice because it helps me re-think assumptions and ideas that have become rigid because of over use or clarify something I've never really thought through before. I have a background in philosophy, and this is the sort of thing philosophers do so the constant arguing about definitions doesn't really bother me.

I guess, for me, its not about having answers but asking the same questions in new ways. I like to see others perspectives and how they express certain ideas because it encourages me to reflect on my own thought process.

Another reason the recycling doesn't bother me is because I keep running into things over and over again when I talk to people. For example, since I first posted a personal ad on alt.com over 4 years ago, people have been telling me I should identify as a slave for a variety of reasons. When this happens, I usually hear them out, voice my reservations and explain why I haven't gone there. We go back and forth about it and it usually ends up with me losing track of the difference and thinking that I could be a slave with the right person. When I'm thinking through this problem personally, its nice to see it being discussed by others in a forum.

I guess my thinking is, so long as people continue to have something to contribute to a discussion, its worth being discussed. The same issues are being covered over and over again because they interest people, are relevant to their concerns and hold their attention.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 14

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:29:52 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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Its human nature to want to make everything fit into a little labelled box. We do not in general like things which dont quite fit anywhere.
Just my opinion.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 15

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:30:23 AM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

Those words are all about conformity - it is easy to be a slave if someone tells me exactly what a slave does. If I am told that not picking my nose and purposely flicking it at my Mistress makes me a slave, then I've got it made.

However, tell me that it really depends on me and I will have to think on my own. Conforming is easy.

For all of those who don't believe in the rules, I say, "Good job, non-conforming to the conformists and conforming to the non-conformists."

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 16

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:36:12 AM

LaTigresse

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Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

Those words are all about conformity - it is easy to be a slave if someone tells me exactly what a slave does. If I am told that not picking my nose and purposely flicking it at my Mistress makes me a slave, then I've got it made.

However, tell me that it really depends on me and I will have to think on my own. Conforming is easy.

For all of those who don't believe in the rules, I say, "Good job, non-conforming to the conformists and conforming to the non-conformists."

Yours,

benji

The nose picking thing I never thought about but bring me a cuppa coffee in the wrong cup and I will be splaining the merits of proper cup size, shape, thickness and weight in detail dammit.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 17

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:37:42 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Its human nature to want to make everything fit into a little labelled box. We do not in general like things which dont quite fit anywhere.
Just my opinion.

I disagree.

My human nature doesnt want to make everything fit into a little labelled box.

Additionally, I dont have any problem at all with things that dont quite fit
anywhere.

I would rather observe and attempt to arrive at my own understanding of what something is, as opposed to cutting and pasting a label on something and think I understood what it is.

But this is just me...

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 18

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:41:58 AM

justheather

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Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

The nose picking thing I never thought about but bring me a cuppa coffee in the wrong cup and I will be splaining the merits of proper cup size, shape, thickness and weight in detail dammit.

Oh goodness yes. Cup must be of "mug" size but not so large that its contents cool befor being consumed. The curve of the mug must conform to the curve of the dominant hand with a handle large enough for three fingers to slip through when holding the cup around the outside, the lip must not be too thick, yet the cup must not be so light and thin as to inspire doubt as to its sturdiness.

< Message edited by justheather -- 10/23/2006 10:43:14 AM >

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 19

RE: Why do we need definitions? - 10/23/2006 10:42:58 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
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Basic fact of the matter is the human mind functions on a logic sequence of similarities and differences.
Labels are shortcuts and they have all the benfits and shortcomings of any shortcut.
They leave out some details sometimes details that are important, other times details that don't matter much.

If every time we sit down to discuss mechanical ideas we have to re define forsake of the conversation what a gear is what a spring is and what screw is, we waste alot of time that could be used towards advancing the topic of engine repair.

I have little problem with people self defining, what I have trouble with is people trying to adjust the definitions to fit what they are as opposed to adjusting themsleves to fit the definition they want to use, or using the label that as closely discribes them as possible and being proud of that label.

Definitions must be set to some extent in order to discuss more abstract and advanced ideas with any level of success. I'm not advocating definitions being taken to the One True Way level but rather taken to a reasonable difference level.

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 20

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