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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 12:13:12 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

There are moral choices to be made with this issue, who's morals win the day remains to be seen.

Indeed.  I will put my prediction in a super secret sealed envelope

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 12:21:55 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
I pray the stem cell research isn't treated the same way.  People deserve hope.  If I could, I'd offer you opponents of this research one hour.. no 15 minutes, in my body to see how you would cope.

And I continue to ask the unanswered question - if a medical situation can be resolved by umbilical cord blood cells, would you use that over fetal cells?


I'm addressing the WHOLE concept of stem cells.  I would not limit one way over the other. For me.. the soul and the body are two different things.  I saw on the  Senate channel that there was a pro -lifer screaming that we are going to be "raising babies to harvest body parts!".  This same mentality is what is going to scream "but. but.. where are they going to get the umbilical cord cells?? People will soon be impregnating themselves to sell them to the highest bidder."
 
If I could trade my body in for a better model.. I sure would!  I chose not to have children because the genetic problems they would face.  Sure would have been nice for the powers that be to think past their own belief system and provide  hope for those future generations.  Instead, I just trimmed the branch of this family tree.

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 12:29:20 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
I pray the stem cell research isn't treated the same way.  People deserve hope.  If I could, I'd offer you opponents of this research one hour.. no 15 minutes, in my body to see how you would cope.

And I continue to ask the unanswered question - if a medical situation can be resolved by umbilical cord blood cells, would you use that over fetal cells?


I'm addressing the WHOLE concept of stem cells.  I would not limit one way over the other. For me.. the soul and the body are two different things.  I saw on the  Senate channel that there was a pro -lifer screaming that we are going to be "raising babies to harvest body parts!".  This same mentality is what is going to scream "but. but.. where are they going to get the umbilical cord cells?? People will soon be impregnating themselves to sell them to the highest bidder."

 
Raising babies to harvest body parts.  Some could argue those mothers who have a second child to provide bone marrow to transplant into their first, ill child are doing that.  It truly is a matter of ethics.  Maybe it really WAS that person's fear that we'd go down that road.  It's a fair question to ask, isn't it?  Shouldn't ALL questions be asked before embarking on such a path? 

Babies are born daily and their birth mothers have the option to donate the cells.

quote:


If I could trade my body in for a better model.. I sure would!  I chose not to have children because the genetic problems they would face.  Sure would have been nice for the powers that be to think past their own belief system and provide  hope for those future generations.  Instead, I just trimmed the branch of this family tree.

Adoption is a wonderful thing.

Each side wishes the other would get past their belief system.  I'm not sure that will ever happen, but I do think it is healthy to debate both sides and ask all questions.  My own personal wish is that umbilical cord blood cells provide equal benefit to embryonic stem cells, and are sufficient enough.

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 12:30:02 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		The question really is where do we draw that line on how they are gotten?
There has to be a point where society says It's OK to get them here, but not OK to get them here.
We do this exact same thing for every law proposed from stem cell research to murder.

It's OK to get stem cells from here, here here and here, but not OK to get them from here.
It's OK to kill someone (if they are trying to kill you, If they are committing forcidble rape, if they are convicted of a capital crime, But it is not acceptable to kill them for any other reason.

It is a moral decission and as such some folks will have the morality that would allow them to do X in different situations than the majority of the society.
Fetal Stem Cells=X
Killing a theif as he runs away with your TV = X


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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 12:52:02 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
I pray the stem cell research isn't treated the same way.  People deserve hope.  If I could, I'd offer you opponents of this research one hour.. no 15 minutes, in my body to see how you would cope.

And I continue to ask the unanswered question - if a medical situation can be resolved by umbilical cord blood cells, would you use that over fetal cells?


I'm addressing the WHOLE concept of stem cells.  I would not limit one way over the other. For me.. the soul and the body are two different things.  I saw on the  Senate channel that there was a pro -lifer screaming that we are going to be "raising babies to harvest body parts!".  This same mentality is what is going to scream "but. but.. where are they going to get the umbilical cord cells?? People will soon be impregnating themselves to sell them to the highest bidder."
 
If I could trade my body in for a better model.. I sure would!  I chose not to have children because the genetic problems they would face.  Sure would have been nice for the powers that be to think past their own belief system and provide  hope for those future generations.  Instead, I just trimmed the branch of this family tree.


I'd like to see "the govt." stay OUT of this kind of thing!
Abortion too!
Whatever happened to the Republican's "smaller govt" philosophy?
Ronald Reagan was right when he said; "Government is not the solution, government is the problem!"
And we have congressmen and senators on BOTH sides of the Aisle listening to Holy Rollers!
I hope the next President takes a MEAT CLEAVER to all these govt. "programs" and Depts like Energy, Education, "International Developement".
I thought we're supposed to be in a "competitive global economy?"
How can we "compete" against foreign countries if our friggin govt, is HELPING them!?

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 1:26:30 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I am extremely pro-life, but I don't know what the answer is.


I am pro-life also, that's why I support safe and legal abortion and stem cell research. What happens to the unborn and the dead does not concern me. I care what happens to the living.

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 1:34:16 PM   
Silvermoon


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Status: offline 		I thought pro-life meant AGAINST abortion and stemcell research? ? Wouldn't that make you pro-CHOICE?


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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 1:49:18 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Adoption is a wonderful thing.

.
Sure is.. especially if you are able bodied enough to take care of the child.  Trouble is, that little gem of an idea gets shot down as an option immediately.

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I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 2:22:40 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvermoon
I thought pro-life meant AGAINST abortion and stemcell research? ? Wouldn't that make you pro-CHOICE?


Well, if the opposition is pro-life I suppose it makes a person in favor of choice "anti-life" and I don't feel anti-life at all. I feel I care more about the living than the average/supposed "pro-life" person.

"Pro-life" is a label signifying nothing. What they are is against choice for the living - they are anti-choice. I see nothing pro-life in their stance whatever.


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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 2:24:15 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvermoon

I thought pro-life meant AGAINST abortion and stemcell research? ? Wouldn't that make you pro-CHOICE?



It does, he's playing with words.

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 2:43:28 PM   
nefertari


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Grinding babies rhetoric does indeed sound like zealotry to me, but that is my sensiblities. It has the net effect of making me think of Pat Robertson... but that is just me, and my opinion. I have seen enough people with "baby murderer" signs to last me a life time because I used to have to pass the family planning clinic here... and that is the kinda thing they would say



    Lemme be sure I have this straight, it is OK for Michael J. Fox to shoot commercials or appear before Congress after changing his medication intake and that is reasoned discourse but if I use graphic (and accurate) descriptions to make a point the other way, that is zealotry. 

    Must be nice to have such simplistic world views.


Julia was right when she used the term zealot.  And I am not being partisan when I use that word.  There are plenty on the left who are zealots or conspiracy theorists.  Instead of finding the facts, you are regurgitating the rhetoric of another zealot, Rush Limbaugh.

In case you're interested -  Fox has Parkinsons.  It is a progressive disease.  Medication is changed regularly as symptoms progress.  The twitching he was showing while filming the commercial is a side effect of the medication - not vice versa.  Rush is not a doctor and is not qualified to make the kind of statements he did.  But then he has plenty of listeners like you that take his words as the Gospel.

Baby grinding is not an accurate description - it is inflammatory rhetoric to incite emotion.

Surely, you're more intelligent than that, aren't you?

Oops...there I go with my wishful thinking again....

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 2:46:59 PM   
nefertari


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Status: offline 		Start hijack.

Julia, I completely agree with you.  The pro-lifers are all about making sure the babies are born and then wash their hands of it.  They are not at all concerned with quality of life.  They want to make sure these babies are born, but they are part of the same group of people who cut medicaid and other benefits to these children.  If you are going to force them to be born, you're responsibility for them cannot stop at birth.

End hijack.

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 3:01:49 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

Start hijack.

Julia, I completely agree with you.  The pro-lifers are all about making sure the babies are born and then wash their hands of it.  They are not at all concerned with quality of life.  They want to make sure these babies are born, but they are part of the same group of people who cut medicaid and other benefits to these children.  If you are going to force them to be born, you're responsibility for them cannot stop at birth.

End hijack.



Goddam..... talk about inflammatory rhetoric.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 3:07:23 PM   
sissifytoserve


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Status: offline 		I agree with nefertari.

If you are going to cut women off like that...the LEAST you could do is give them the means to raise that child.

Especially if these hypocrites think "all life is precious".

I guess as long as THEY don't have to deal with it.

I don't like abortion...but women create all life after all...IMHO it should be a womans choice.

As for stem cell...geez..if you are throwing away an afterbirth placenta or a fertilized egg that will never be used....damn..
lets use it shall we...for the people we love and wish to heal?



< Message edited by sissifytoserve -- 10/29/2006 3:09:08 PM >

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 3:13:47 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Women are not the only ones who create life.
 
I'm pro-life. I believe in health care for all, and a decent life for all. So, for anyone to say "pro-lifers don't care", or something along those lines, is asinine and wrong. It's rhetoric, and it's a glaring example of a stunted mind that can't or won't look beyond its own nose.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 3:18:16 PM   
sissifytoserve


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Status: offline 		Ummmmmm...you don't carry a fetus in your belly for 9 months pal. Nor do you give birth to it.

Abortions will always happen...unless you want to go back to the coathanger in alley days.....the least we can do
is help the women we love through the grieving process, plenty of counciling and SAFE medical procedures if they
do seek that option.

It is a disgrace that people in front of clinics call them murderers, babykillers etc..and terrorize them.

< Message edited by sissifytoserve -- 10/29/2006 3:21:40 PM >

_____________________________

A great mind must be androgynous
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The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 3:26:49 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		You're right, women jump up and down and voila, they're pregnant. Men do nothing.....

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 4:04:55 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I listed many current sites that are studying the opposite, and you listed one study, conducted 9 years ago, that suggests otherwise.  I think some progress has been made since 1997.



I read through most of the sites you provided, ownedgirlie, on this site.

The question I asked you was to provide scientific evidence to support your claim that umbilical cord stem cells are as effective as fetal stem cells.

You provided a long list of links talking about how effective umbilical cord stem cells are.  While I appreciate the links, you did not answer my question.

What I have read on the subject seems to imply that umbilical stem cells are wonderful, but do not do many of the things which fetal stem cells do.  The studies I have most recently read involved mice, not humans, so there is another flaw in my position you may feel free to exploit should you so choose.

The problem with Monkeyboy and Congress' right to life stance stopping all fetal stem cell research is that we cannot do the research to determine how effective fetal stem cells are in humans.  Even though, we know from studies with lower life forms that paralysis can be cured, auto-immune diseases can be cured, blindness can be cured, etc.

It is an ethical question.  I take it from your answer to that that if your own (adopted or genetic) child was dying of something that could be saved using fetal stem cells, you would look your own child in the eyes and say "sorry, you have to die because I dont believe in using fetal stem cells to save your life."

If that works for you, keep it up!

Sinergy

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 4:28:12 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Goddam..... talk about inflammatory rhetoric.



     No Level, when it comes from people they agree with, it is caring, concerned and passionate about their compassion.  When someone they disagree with uses the exact same tactics, using words designed to provoke an emotional response for instance, THEN it is inflammatory.

    The funny thing is, I'm pro-choice (with some reservations) and would like to see the death penalty used a lot more often.  Recycling the aftermath gives me pause though.

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RE: Rush, Fox, and Olberman - 10/29/2006 4:47:19 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

Start hijack.

Julia, I completely agree with you.  The pro-lifers are all about making sure the babies are born and then wash their hands of it.  They are not at all concerned with quality of life.  They want to make sure these babies are born, but they are part of the same group of people who cut medicaid and other benefits to these children.  If you are going to force them to be born, you're responsibility for them cannot stop at birth.

End hijack.



Goddam..... talk about inflammatory rhetoric.


As a whole the group that is anti-abortion and anti stem cell research is also against welfare, food stamps, medical aid for the poor, and any other social program there is. In other words the prolife part are anti government funds for the poor of this country, which are mostly women and children btw.

So the party against stem cell research and abortion wants to force women who are on the margins economically to have infants they cannot afford to support and will probably not put these children up for adoption either way. What she said seems factual to me, not rhetoric at all.

There are individuals that are anti abortion and anti stem cell research that support social programs to aid poor children and their families, but mostly the same crowd that spews so-called prolife rhetoric are the same bunch that would let a kid die from cancer because that kid comes from a poor family....Not all, but many in the republican party really do not give a shit as long as they got theirs, and that is my opinion from knowing many of them and listening to them... Rush would fall into that group beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind

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