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RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 5:40:17 PM   
metalminnie


Posts: 3
Joined: 8/26/2005
Status: offline 		i live on a farm, to me a shotgun is a tool of my job, as is a  rifle. if the farmers (and nominated gameskeepers) did not control the pest species (rabbits, foxes, crows etc.) the results to the UK economy would be devastating.
I am british, i own guns, i use guns on a day to day basis......... however......... i detest handguns, a shotgun and a rifle are working tools, also a huge visual deterant... a handgun is meant to be concealed, it is meant to main and kill other humans, handguns are banned n the UK and quite rightly too.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 5:54:18 PM   
Michaelat92544


Posts: 52
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Although, I could own a gun, I do not. I'm not anti-gun. I'm retired military and I've been around guns. What I find is that I can do what I would have done with a gun with another instrument. And, I find that I am more likely to allow a snake or critter to retreat before I shoot them. My two cents...

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 5:55:17 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: metalminnie

i live on a farm, to me a shotgun is a tool of my job, as is a  rifle. if the farmers (and nominated gameskeepers) did not control the pest species (rabbits, foxes, crows etc.) the results to the UK economy would be devastating.
I am british, i own guns, i use guns on a day to day basis......... however......... i detest handguns, a shotgun and a rifle are working tools, also a huge visual deterant... a handgun is meant to be concealed, it is meant to main and kill other humans, handguns are banned n the UK and quite rightly too.


My handgun (not the cap and ball which is only used at competition and practice for it) is loaded with snake shot and hollow points.   The snake shot is self explanatory.  The hollow point is for a Javalina (a wild bore that lives out here and when it attacks doesn't quit until either you or it are dead and snake shot only makes it mad).

I carry the handgun out in the desert mostly when I am out rock hunting (carrying a hammer in one hand and a bag of goodies in the other) which leaves nothing left to carry the rifle (the pistol is in a holster) and takes far to long to get to when being attacked by javalina.


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 6:00:43 PM   
metalminnie


Posts: 3
Joined: 8/26/2005
Status: offline 		carrying guns for stated sensible reasons like that is perfectly acceptable...... what is the chances of being attacked by a Javalina in a city?

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 6:03:35 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Zensee,

Find me a state constitution that makes it clear only the state has the right to guns. 

Guns, when used properly don't kill either.  I have shot thousands of guns tens of thousands of times and I have yet to kill anyone.  Perhaps I am just doing it wrong but I don't think so.

Metalminnie, thanks for those VERY hot pictures! 

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 6:29:35 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: metalminnie

i live on a farm, to me a shotgun is a tool of my job, as is a  rifle. if the farmers (and nominated gameskeepers) did not control the pest species (rabbits, foxes, crows etc.) the results to the UK economy would be devastating.
I am british, i own guns, i use guns on a day to day basis......... however......... i detest handguns, a shotgun and a rifle are working tools, also a huge visual deterant... a handgun is meant to be concealed, it is meant to main and kill other humans, handguns are banned n the UK and quite rightly too.


Every retired policeman I've ever talked to here in America has the same opinion on handguns as you do.


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 6:30:30 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

What really pisses me off though is when some law-abiding citizen with a lawfully acquired firearm goes ape and commits a crime (usually murder) with it and the gun lobby conveniently re-classifies them as criminal, after the fact, and denies any association or responsibility.

A person who commits a crime is a criminal, aren't they?  What would you rather the "gun lobby" call them?  Methodists?  I'm not seeing why this would really piss you off, can you explain why it does?

As for metalmillie's post, some "javelina" walk on two legs and are armed with more than tusks.

~stef

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 6:38:44 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

 Guns kill people when used correctly.

Z.
0



      Guns also kill dinner when used correctly, not to mention doing a fine job on snakes that decide to hang out by the front door.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 6:53:58 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

What really pisses me off though is when some law-abiding citizen with a lawfully acquired firearm goes ape and commits a crime (usually murder) with it and the gun lobby conveniently re-classifies them as criminal, after the fact, and denies any association or responsibility.

A person who commits a crime is a criminal, aren't they?  What would you rather the "gun lobby" call them?  Methodists?  I'm not seeing why this would really piss you off, can you explain why it does?

As for metalmillie's post, some "javelina" walk on two legs and are armed with more than tusks.

~stef

Thanks. You just illustrated my point about that argument. Instant deniability. They're not one of us. How about calling them an ex-lawful gun owner - that is a bit more accurate.

Point is they got their gun legally. The argument that when guns are illegal only criminals will have guns is just so much bullshit. I am as concerned about some "law -abiding" citizen having a gun he might choose to use for mayhem, simply out of convenience, as I am someone who gets one for expressedly criminal motives. Mainly because there are far more of the former than of the latter. When all you have is a gun everything starts looking like a target.

C.D. There are legitimate uses for guns and they can be just for fun too. But what does any private citizen need a concealable weapon for? Or an assault rifle? Or an M50? There is reasonable and there is excess. 0

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 6:54:42 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: metalminnie

carrying guns for stated sensible reasons like that is perfectly acceptable...... what is the chances of being attacked by a Javalina in a city?


In the city I was attacked 4 times by gun toters.   Once on Christmas Morning when I had 4 children in the house.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 6:59:11 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
we had two nutters with legal guns run amok, and laws were then passed on all, to forbid guns. The police approved these two nutters to have guns,

What were the names of those two men? A reference?


Hi Rule

There was Michael Ryan (mentioned incidentally in the "Guns Dont Kill People, Rappers Do" song by a Brit band I now cant recall!). He was unbalanced at best but yet had been approved for all sorts of weapons including a fully auto AK47. He went on a rampage through Hungerford, a small town between London and Bristol, and shot the place and several people up.

Then there was a guy in Scotland. He was a similar case to Michael Ryan in all respects. He went to the local primary school in Dunblane and killed loads of infants. I dont recall his name sorry.

Sorry for the vagueness - but the above should lead you to full references I imagine.

E

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 7:02:23 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

. The argument that when guns are illegal only criminals will have guns is just so much bullshit.


Well thats how it is in the UK these days. I cant get a gun legally, but if go to a certain place with about 200 pounds, I can pick one up no problem. How this makes the situation better, I do not understand, and how legal availabillity would make it worse than it is now, is equally beyond me.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 7:05:51 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		You know.   I know a lot of people with rifles and pistols.   But with the exception of those issued by the Military or police I don't know anyone that has a fully automatic weapon.   Wonder why they seem so prevelant in movies?   Theaterics?   I don't know.  Any ideas?

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 7:13:04 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Guns dont have an eraser. but neither do cars.

I drive carefully. Not one bump in 20 years in traffic comparable to LA and covering 20 to 40,000 miles a year throughout that period.

So if I'm so irrational and irreponsible that I cant be trusted with a proper gun, surely I shouldnt be on the road either? Clearly the standards for responsibility are very high if my driving record doesnt qualify.

There are simple rules for handling guns, just as there are simple rules for avoiding accidents when driving. The problem we had in the UK was that licenses were handed out for guns willy nilly to anyone who applied. Meanwhile one must pass a driving test to drive a car. What would be the problem with having a gun proficiency and care test before one received a licence?

You know its not even that important to me that I physically have the gun in my home. I just love shooting targets. Before the ban here, we used to go to the police range (as invited civilian guests) to shoot all sorts, but now even thats off the agenda. it would be perfectly acceptable to me, for my guns to be stored at the police ranges for me to use there. As it is though, I'm far too irresponsible for that, I suppose.

E

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 7:40:54 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I think all rabid gun opponents should send their young, attractive daughters here to South Texas, and have them commute very late at night and early in the mornng, from the country into the city, and vice versa.
 
I bet at least half of them would buy their daughter a permitted handgun to keep in her car ... just like my parents did with me, and most of my friends did with them.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 8:01:52 PM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		Good to see ya around Caitlyn, thanks for the .02 !

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 8:43:49 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Zensee,

I assume then that you include rapists, serial killers, torturers, and the lot in with us kinky people right?  I mean we do the same things so we can't just exclude them right?  Sorry, you want to make idiotic arguments you are going to have to find a dumber group of people to try them on.

Assualt weapons are LESS powerful and LESS lethal than rifles or shotguns.

Rifles and shotguns can be made into handguns in under five minutes with a hacksaw.

It is complete bullshit to say you just want to go after "bad guns" because that means you are going after the sympton and no matter how many laws you pass violence is only going to get worse.

Since neither crime nor violence arrived with the invention of the firearm, banning them isn't going to get you anywere.  You want to stop gun crime, ban alcohol and drugs.

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 8:51:33 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Thanks. You just illustrated my point about that argument. Instant deniability. They're not one of us. How about calling them an ex-lawful gun owner - that is a bit more accurate.

It's also a bit ludicrous.  At the point they use a gun to break the law, they are no longer a law abiding gun owner.  They are no longer "one of us.".  What about that is so hard for you to fathom?

Are you an ex-child?  Should we call married couples ex-singles?  Would you call a rapist an ex-lawful penis owner?  Please.

quote:

Point is they got their gun legally. The argument that when guns are illegal only criminals will have guns is just so much bullshit.

If guns were made illegal, by definition, the only people to have them (aside from law enforcement or other people with legal dispensation) would be criminals.  Why is that bullshit?

quote:

I am as concerned about some "law -abiding" citizen having a gun he might choose to use for mayhem, simply out of convenience, as I am someone who gets one for expressedly criminal motives. Mainly because there are far more of the former than of the latter.

That's funny.  And people call gun owners paranoid when they say they own guns for personal protection.

quote:

When all you have is a gun everything starts looking like a target.

The millions of concealed carry permit holders in the US who go their whole lives without choosing to use their weapons for "mayhem, simply out of convenience" handily disprove that notion.  I don't suppose you have anything other than closed-minded opinions to back up that pathetic smear, do you?

quote:

C.D. There are legitimate uses for guns and they can be just for fun too. But what does any private citizen need a concealable weapon for?

Personal protection.  There's a reason that Be Prepared has been the Boy Scouts motto for nearly a century.

quote:

Or an assault rifle?

Hunting, competition and recreation.  By the way, do you even know what makes an "assault weapon" an "assault weapon?"  Most people don't.  It was a term cooked up because "big black evil looking gun " sounded too juvenile when some people were trying to figure out a way to ban private ownership of big black evil looking rifles.  It's a meaningless term to anyone but the anti-gun crowd and the evening news.  These days, any rifle with a removable clip or magazine that fires ammunition larger than pistol caliber and less than heavy machinegun caliber, is automagically labled an "assault weapon."  Basically, if it looks like something a soldier or a terrorist would ever consider carrying it's an "assault weapon."

Strangely enough, most modern hunting rifles sold in the world would fall under the myopic classification of "assault weapon" these days.

quote:

Or an M50?

Crowd control 

Have you ever fired one?  They're quite fun.  Expensive as hell to shoot, but loads of fun. 

Is it likely someone would ever need an M50?  Not likely.  By the same token, is it likely that someone would ever need a $25,000 watch or a McLaren F1?  If you're going to limit the ownership of objects based solely on need, you had better get used to living like the Amish.
 
quote:

There is reasonable and there is excess.

Thankfully, in this instance, you don't get to decide that.

~stef

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Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 8:59:57 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Stef,

It amazes me that anti-gun people can use many arguments against guns that they would be screaming about if anyone else used them.

You don't "need" privacy if you are an honest citizen.  You don't need a lawyer if you are innocent.  You don't need to have tools of torture.  You don't need to have sex with cute girls.  You don't need rights.

Sorry but a bunch of crazy guys took to the streets with guns and started shooting politicians and we are all better for it.  They made sure that if we had to we could do the same.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: another take on guns - 11/1/2006 9:21:37 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

But the real question is ... should the pencil apologize for making mistakes?


I think we should sue pencil manufacturers with a class action lawsuit for every spelling mistake ever made.

STICK IT TO THE MAN!

Sinergy

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Profile   Post #: 40
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