RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (Full Version)

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Marc2b -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/5/2006 7:14:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Don’t worry Marc, Ron prefers to approach subjects obliquely and light them from behind. You get to add your own details to the silhouettes.


An independent agent provocateur so to speak.  All kinds to make a world I guess.  For the record, I would like to state that I am opposed to slaughtering Christians or anyone else for that matter.

I would also like to take a moment to crow that I finally made it to the hand cuffs! [sm=banana.gif]  Yes!  I am now indecent!  If my friends and family only knew what lay hidden in their midst.   




Zensee -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/5/2006 9:21:48 PM)

And you got to start page four too. An auspicious thread for you. Congratulations.



LadyEllen -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/6/2006 2:11:46 AM)

As an Odinist (like Ron - mnotter), I am opposed to slaughtering Christians.

However, I do feel the Church and its heirs and successors in Europe, do owe we heathens a lot of money in compensation for the theft and destruction of our lands, temples and lore. In addition, there must be compensation paid for the ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity which the Church perpetrated against our people. There are so many charges to lay, that for simplicity's sake I will leave it at those few; a full list of charges would require hundreds of pages.

We have more than enough evidence to proceed to trial, and would be assured of success. It has been confirmed that in relation to the sort of crimes above, there is no time limit on prosecution, and the heirs and successors of those who perpetrated these crimes are extant today - they might not be the same people, but by their own admission they are the legal and spiritual heirs in apostolic succession, and are today deriving their existence from the crimes their forebears committed. They must therefore be prepared to answer for the crimes of their forebears, as much as they rely on the authority they claim as heirs by apostolic succession. There is also precedent for this, in that the previous Pope apologised for crimes against Jewry, as successor to those who perpetrated and perpetuated hatred and abuse of the Jewish people. Of course, in that we are not laying charges solely against the Roman Catholic church, but also against the Church of England and other heirs and successors of that original Church.

I am not interested in revenge; solely in recovering the property appropriated by the Church (including the land where our temples stood, on which many churches and other Christian buildings today stand), and money in compensation for the dreadful crimes perpetrated by the Church. That such compensation and return of property would likely bankrupt the Church is of no concern in this.

E




Marc2b -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/6/2006 5:45:11 PM)

quote:

As an Odinist (like Ron - mnotter), I am opposed to slaughtering Christians.

However, I do feel the Church ... etc.


Good to know that you oppose slaughtering Christians and, I presume, slaughtering anyone else. I like people who are against slaughtering other people – there are usually much more friendly and are generally nice people to know.

Okay, now that I got the (genuine, if light-hearted) complement out of the way, a few comments and questions – strictly for the sake of intellectual curiosity.

It seems to me that the human race has spent the last several thousand years thinking up new and innovative ways to fuck each other over. I’ve said this before in other posts but it bears repeating. I am certain that if everyone of us (that is all six billion plus of us) could trace our ancestry back far enough we would find both oppressors and the oppressed. I know I can. If we hold people accountable for the actions of their ancestors then all of us are guilty and all of us owe something to someone and are also owed. Trying to figure out who owes how much to who could get impossibly complicated. The return of land would be even messier. In theory Native Americans should get back all of North and South America and everyone here of European decent should move back to Europe.

I can just see the look of horror on all your faces when the boats pull up offshore.

"We’re baaaaaaaaack. Did you miss us?"

So, can I couch surf at your place a few days? You know, until I find work.

Okay, seriously, I know I’m taking it to the extreme but sometimes looking at the extremes help you to see the middle more clearly which leads to my questions. Does any one group have a greater or lesser right to press a claim than any other group? How do you quantify exploitation and suffering. Is there a statute of limitations?

"Oh, we’re sorry, but your culture was last exploited one thousand years ago. You should have filed a claim last week. Have a nice day."

You’ve got a claim against the Christian church. I confess that I don’t know a lot about Odinism (I hope I spelled that right) but is it’s history squeaky clean? Is there anyone out there who can say "dag nabbit! Those Odinists owe us!" Even if there isn’t, religion aside, what about your ancestry? You live in England so I presuming you’re English. There are a great many people in the world with a bone to pick with the English. Half of my ancestry is English, does that make me culpable? Or only fifty percent culpable? The English half of my family descended from serfs. Can I look up the decedents of the landowners who exploited them and demand compensation? Do I owe money to those African Americans who ancestors (I am sorry to report) were exploited as slaves by some of my ancestors? I’m not poor but I’m not rich either. I earn my living and don’t exploit anyone. Should I be penalized – perhaps to the point of bankruptcy – for something I didn’t do?

You say the fact that just compensation (who decides how much is just?) may "bankrupt the Church is of no concern in this." But it would not just be the Church you would be bankrupting but people too. Who do they turn to for succor?

I guess the big question I am leading up to is: at what point (if we are even capable) do we stop hurling blame at each other and get down to the business of simply, sincerely, treating each other as respected equals? Yeah, I know, that’s asking an awful lot from the human race, but hope springs eternal.

Please don’t construe any of this as an attack upon you or your religion, I just like to pose questions and think about the "deep" stuff sometimes – my idea of fun on what would otherwise be a boring Monday evening. In fact I would like to thank you, your post gave me deep, fun stuff to think about.

Be well.



Marc2b -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/6/2006 5:51:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

And you got to start page four too. An auspicious thread for you. Congratulations.



Thank you, thank you, thank you!  And as we all know, page four is the page of power.  Only the toughest and most intelligent of posters last this long in a thread.

Actually, I was just looking for an excuse to use the dancing banana guy.



WhiteRadiance -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/6/2006 6:34:02 PM)

I was raised in the south- which is, of course- devoutly 'christian", as well as conservative-republican.  Here, there is a monster-church on every corner, where evangelical deacons and preachers screech about the perils of the "liberals" and testify from the pulpit how GOD would want you- (his disciple) - to vote. 
Here, religion is political. Churches are tax-exempt mini-cities, and all the high and mighty do business within the walls of the churches.  They dictate "our (Alabama) values".. I am so fucking happyu that I have a conservative to tell me what my values are!
 
I have no problem with anyone having an opinion on any given subject, and I certainly have my own opinions on Creation and spirituality.. but I do NOT force-feed my opinions down the throat of others.. nor do not tolerate those who do.
 
Tomorrow is election day.. I plan on voting for all those liberals" *shudder*.. who do not have "Alabama values"... My problem with religion, especially in America now, is that it has become a political issue, rather than a personal choice.
 
 
 



philosophy -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/6/2006 7:10:32 PM)

"Here, there is a monster-church on every corner, where evangelical deacons and preachers screech about the perils of the "liberals" and testify from the pulpit how GOD would want you- (his disciple) - to vote. 
Here, religion is political. Churches are tax-exempt mini-cities, and all the high and mighty do business within the walls of the churches.  They dictate "our (Alabama) values".. I am so fucking happyu that I have a conservative to tell me what my values are! "

...........and this is different to, say, Iran how?............(nb, this is a rhetorical question, not so much for the quotee, but for general discussion)

(edited for geographical accuracy)



Noah -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/6/2006 7:33:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"One thing evolution does not explain is how/why anything exists in order to evolve in the first place."

....true, that would be another scientific field, ie cosmology. 




Hold on a sec. "why anything exists ..." is a question in cosmology?



Noah -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/6/2006 7:47:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

All I can say is...No matter what you believe or don't believe.  Read it.  For those who don't like to read or haven't the time, it's only 95 pages long.  It's clear, to the point, concise, and absolutely no B.S.
 
anthrosub


If this quote attributed to the book on the Wikipedia page is any indication of the thinking on display in the book I doubt I'll take the trouble to read it:

"... to demolish the intellectual and moral pretensions of Christianity in its most committed forms."

I mean if he had said ".. in its most needs-to-be committed forms" then maybe. But if he thinks the volume at which someone is willing to scream fundamentalist nonsense is the best guage of committment to a thing, well that's just wooly-headed nonsense.

Are the bulging-eyed neocon apologists the most committed Americans?



LadyEllen -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/7/2006 2:40:45 AM)

Hi Marc

I agree - its impossible to unravel and put right all the wars and colonisations of the past. Wars for land are one thing, and as the shitty nature of war goes, they are more honourable than wars for ideology.

The difference in this instance though, is that the abuse, persecutions and theft et al occurred on ideological grounds with the express intention of ethnic cleansing.

In any case, we dont want much - the church here in England is selling off unused church buildings for housing developments and other non Christian purposes. If they are not using these buildings, then we would very much like the land back, without adding more to their coffers, since the land belonged to us in the first place.

And no, the effect on the abusers of confiscating their ill gotten gains is of no concern in the delivery of justice. For a religion which claims poverty and humility is the way to go, they have enough ill gotten gains in any case that would survive such justice.

E



meatcleaver -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/7/2006 4:00:03 AM)

Surely the lands didn't belong to a religion but to a tribe that no longer exists or at least, clanned together into a greater nation. The biggest theft of land in England was the Enclosure Act and in Scotland, the clearances, both done by the respective establishments for the 'good' of the whole community (yep. That is laughable). As for the religious lands, they belonged to the king as in Northumbria and it was the king that gave the church land. It was Mathilda (Edwin's queen) who gave land to the church for one of the earliest churches in Northumbria which was previously a grove and a religious gathering place.



Zensee -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/7/2006 4:55:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

If this quote attributed to the book on the Wikipedia page is any indication of the thinking on display in the book I doubt I'll take the trouble to read it:

"... to demolish the intellectual and moral pretensions of Christianity in its most committed forms."

I mean if he had said ".. in its most needs-to-be committed forms" then maybe. But if he thinks the volume at which someone is willing to scream fundamentalist nonsense is the best guage of committment to a thing, well that's just wooly-headed nonsense.



It seems risky to base an opinion on the understanding of a single word.

In this case I would take “committed” to mean extreme and active forms. It is entirely possible that the author actually chose that word to infer the secondary definition you suggested.

I have found the author to be careful, direct and articulate in his arguments. Of course if a person did not want to be confronted with competent challenges to their faith they might want to pick up something else.


Z.




thompsonx -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/7/2006 9:32:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hi Marc

I agree - its impossible to unravel and put right all the wars and colonisations of the past. Wars for land are one thing, and as the shitty nature of war goes, they are more honourable than wars for ideology.

The difference in this instance though, is that the abuse, persecutions and theft et al occurred on ideological grounds with the express intention of ethnic cleansing.

In any case, we dont want much - the church here in England is selling off unused church buildings for housing developments and other non Christian purposes. If they are not using these buildings, then we would very much like the land back, without adding more to their coffers, since the land belonged to us in the first place.

And no, the effect on the abusers of confiscating their ill gotten gains is of no concern in the delivery of justice. For a religion which claims poverty and humility is the way to go, they have enough ill gotten gains in any case that would survive such justice.

E


LadyEllen:
I agree: a thief has no right to the things he has stolen, no matter how much time has ellapsed since the theft has occured.

thompson



Marc2b -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/8/2006 5:02:03 PM)

quote:

The difference in this instance though, is that the abuse, persecutions and theft et al occurred on ideological grounds with the express intention of ethnic cleansing.

You’ll never get an argument from me that Ideologues are the most dangerous people in the world, responsible for most of human suffering throughout history. That aside, do the victims of injustice really care what motivates the perpetrators? When someone’s home is burning behind them, as they are driven off their land, do they think to themselves, "well... they’re not doing this for ideological reasons, so I guess they’re not really that bad?"

quote:

In any case, we dont want much

That’s what they always say. That’s what the English said to the natives when they showed up off of America’s east coast. That’s probably what the Christians said to the Pagans way back when.

quote:

the church here in England is selling off unused church buildings for housing developments and other non Christian purposes. If they are not using these buildings, then we would very much like the land back, without adding more to their coffers, since the land belonged to us in the first place.

If you can negotiate with the Church rather than appropriate, then kudos since this is less likely to continue the cycle of blame and resentment. However, I question wether the land belonged to you in the first place. Are you a decedent of a long, unbroken line of Odinists, stretching all the way back to the days when the Church first appropriated the lands? Or are you a more recent convert? Can I convert to Odinism and then demand free land from the Church?

quote:

And no, the effect on the abusers of confiscating their ill gotten gains is of no concern in the delivery of justice.

Ignoring the effect of our actions on others is the primary reason why humanity remains locked in its blood soaked cycle of history.

Bottom line for me: it is easy to have high moral principles when the consequences don’t affect you. It is even easier when they benefit you. But when the consequences do affect you negatively, will you hold to the principle? When someone demands land and/or compensation from you for the crimes of your ancestors, will you acquiesce? Will you still have no concerns about what effect the "delivery of justice" will have?

Shakespeare hit the nail on the head when he said, "Though justice be thy plea, consider this: that in the course of justice none of us should see salvation."

Peaces, Health and Happiness to you and yours,

Marc2b



Marc2b -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/10/2006 9:20:23 PM)

Anthrosub said:
quote:

All I can say is...No matter what you believe or don't believe. Read it. For those who don't like to read or haven't the time, it's only 95 pages long. It's clear, to the point, concise, and absolutely no B.S.


Just a note to let you know that the book arrived in yesterday’s mail. Give me a few days to read it and think about it and I’ll let you know what I think.

For anyone else who may be interested, I’d though I drop this interesting little nugget into the debate:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html



LordODiscipline -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/11/2006 4:07:26 AM)

Thank you for that LA.
 
~J
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The frightening statistic in the Wikipedia piece is that 53% of Americans are creationists, for a country with such a science pedigree that is alarming and one shivers at the prospect of that statistic being true. Old time religious zealots with 21st century technology really sends a shiver down ones spine.


I'll just point out that one CAN be both a creationist and believe in evolution.  I know most people find that confusing and aren't both, but it is certainly possible.



meatcleaver -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/11/2006 5:33:42 AM)

Opinion polls are opinion polls and there are statisitics, statistics and damn lies, granted. But America does have creationism taught in some schools and intelligent design and a large body of fundementalists that influence government policy. Whatever the number of people who believe in creationism, there are enough to influence education and foreign policy and that is scarey.



anthrosub -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/11/2006 1:33:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Anthrosub said:
quote:

All I can say is...No matter what you believe or don't believe. Read it. For those who don't like to read or haven't the time, it's only 95 pages long. It's clear, to the point, concise, and absolutely no B.S.


Just a note to let you know that the book arrived in yesterday’s mail. Give me a few days to read it and think about it and I’ll let you know what I think.

For anyone else who may be interested, I’d though I drop this interesting little nugget into the debate:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html


Nice to hear someone is at least reading the book and willing to take the discussion from there.  I'm about one third into his first book, which really goes into a much more detailed discussion about his train of thought.  What I appreciate from this author is he outlines his case clearly and with no-nonsense examples that anyone who can read will easily understand.  He doesn't have to argue his points so much as simply point to things that are there for anyone to see if they just take the time to look.
 
I'd like to take a moment to point out something I find rarely discussed but is discussed in his first book.  Namely, what does it mean to believe something and how does belief function in the life of an average human being.  This word is used so freely in discussions about religion but nobody seems to take a moment and wonder what they are saying when they use the term.
 
This brings me to the question of how do we know that we know?  Who here has taken the time to investigate what "knowing" really is and how do you personally validate what you think you know?  In my own experience, I have found that new information, even a minute detail, can completely change the picture in a major way.  One of my chief complaints about western religion is that it doesn't foster true critical thinking.
 
When you see how the people who subscribe to western based religious beliefs talk about themselves, you can see that they are deliberately avoiding challenging their own beliefs.  In fact, they equate resisting critical thought as a sign of their faith's strength.  In this approach, faith becomes ignorance and is actually exhalted as a result.
 
anthrosub



Marc2b -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/23/2006 7:20:46 PM)

Okay, It took me a little longer than I said to get to this. Sorry about that. I got waylaid by a nasty case of the flu. I’ve been living on Nyquil and orange juice for the past several days.

That aside, on to the book. I was hoping to write a penetrating critique of the book but I can’t. Sam Harris’ writing is succinct and to the point. It has a take no prisoners style that leaves little room for argument. This really comes as no surprise to me as I am something of a skeptic myself (I subscribe to Skeptic Magazine). Although I don’t let myself become one hundred percent skeptical because I believe that pure skepticism is as unproductive as pure credulity – there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophies.

Mostly, what I am opposed to are ideologies, which I define as "systems of belief which close themself off from any outside criticisms." In other words, the ideology is always right because the ideology says that it is always right. Circular reasoning is the mainstay of ideologies. Many religions certainly fall into this category:

"The Bible is the unerring word of God."

"How do you know?"

"Because the Bible says so."

Which leads to Harris’ biggest problem. You really can’t argue with ideologues. This means that he is (forgive the irony) preaching to the choir. But maybe those who are teetering on the edge of becoming ideologues can be swayed away.
The only other problem I can see in the book is that Harris accuses Christians of arrogance, a charge that many of them are certainly guilty of. But all ideologues are guilty of arrogance (after all, the ideologue knows the truth) and at times Harris comes close to this himself.

One example is his claim that the United States is not founded upon Judeo-Christian traditions – he cites the fact that the Constitution makes no mention of God. I believe this is a misinterpretation of what "Judeo-Christian traditions" mean. It is true that the United States was not set up as a theocracy, but it cannot be denied that the nation was founded by Christians, and is largely inhabited by people who’s entire history is colored by Christianity. There is a reason why people who don’t go to church every Sunday, still say Merry Christmas come December every year.

The secular/atheistic side of this debate can be just as dogmatic as the religious side. It baffles me that some people are offended if a Nativity scene is erected in a public park during the Christmas season. I mean really, what’s the harm?

Bottom line: I am in agreement with most of Harris’ arguments but am a little leery of his own stridency. Overall I enjoyed the book and am considering purchasing his other book, "The End of Faith." Since I enjoyed it I would like to return the favor and recommend a book you may enjoy: "The Making of the Messiah," by Robert Sheaffer. I believe it is available from Amazon.com.



dcnovice -> RE: Letter to a Christian Nation (11/23/2006 8:44:53 PM)

quote:

I have never understood why an omnipotent god designed physical laws which amount to the need for such cruelty in order for life to exist when an omnipotent god could create life with infinite wisdom and infinite resources that there would not be any need for competition of species.


That's been giving me a fair amount of pause lately.



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