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RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:07:01 PM   
ToGiveDivine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The claim that Vermont houses the most intelligent Americans in the US was posted by an American. I think lorellei. It went through all 52 states based on various factors. I'm only the observer on that one, if people have issue with it then take it up with the poller.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Considering it's population concentration it's like you saying your are the most intelligent person in the room when you are in there by yourself. True-and just as relevant to connecting the fact with the pole data concerning a self proclaimed Socialist.



Even if he's the only one in the room, I'd have to question the intelligence based on his statement above - where did the other 2 States come from?  (Don't say D.C. or Puerto Rico - they're not States)

And yes, I'm just poking fun at your mistake NG - take it with the grain of salt intended.

< Message edited by ToGiveDivine -- 11/2/2006 3:09:43 PM >

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RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:10:24 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressTruth

I knew two blondes in Vermont, one of them was from North Carolina though. I agree that Burlington is more or less a town rather than a city. I thought it was funny when people got offended when I called it a town. The public transportation sucks but bike paths are plenty.


The claim that Vermont houses the most intelligent Americans in the US was posted by an American. I think lorellei. It went through all 52 states based on various factors. I'm only the observer on that one, if people have issue with it then take it up with the poller.


Wow! All 52 states eh?

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:14:09 PM   
SlvrFox


Posts: 34
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Status: offline 		When did we get 52 states?

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:17:48 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Have you seen the post or are you attempting to discredit it without actually seeing it?
You've never seen socialism work either but still support it. What's the difference?

quote:

2) Which self-proclaimed socialist?

This one from your OP:
quote:

Ladies and gentlemen, take a bow and tip your hat to Bernie Sanders, poised to become the first socialist senator in US history.
Check him out. He labels himself socialist, but has he turned over his possessions to the state? Is he running on a platform where he will work for laws that make his constituency do so? Or is his position 'socialism lite'?

It's recently been Halloween. As a socialist, did you answer the door and take all the candy from any group that came and redistribute it equally to provide a lesson in socialism? Of course keeping 50% for the 'state'.

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RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:19:48 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The claim that Vermont houses the most intelligent Americans in the US was posted by an American. I think lorellei. It went through all 52 states based on various factors. I'm only the observer on that one, if people have issue with it then take it up with the poller.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Considering it's population concentration it's like you saying your are the most intelligent person in the room when you are in there by yourself. True-and just as relevant to connecting the fact with the pole data concerning a self proclaimed Socialist.



Even if he's the only one in the room, I'd have to question the intelligence based on his statement above - where did the other 2 States come from?  (Don't say D.C. or Puerto Rico - they're not States)

And yes, I'm just poking fun at your mistake NG - take it with the grain of salt intended.


Someone must have sold me a snide flag down the market then cos I'm sat here counting them now and there's 52 stars and 52 stripes. It's a fucking big flag I can tell you.

Are there only 50 states in the US? What happened to the other two - climate change taking its toll already?



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RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:21:54 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

He labels himself socialist



Merc, sorry to piss on your chips but I've never labelled myself a socialist in my life. You need to take care when you read.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:27:35 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

[It's recently been Halloween. As a socialist, did you answer the door and take all the candy from any group that came and redistribute it equally to provide a lesson in socialism? Of course keeping 50% for the 'state'.



Socialism is about equal opportunity, merc (as opposed to bullying kids into parting with their hard earned sweets). This thread is turing into the surreal.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:28:14 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Enough slamming each other ... lets slam Vermont instead.
 
Here in Houston, you can pretty much get in a bar under the drinking age if, a) you're a girl, b) you're attractive, c) you're dressed hawt. Vermont ... forget it. They card religiously, and "dressed hawt" seems to be jeans and a hoodie. For instance, TreSwank would be dressed "Vermont Hawt."
 
Even when I did manage to get in a club (in this instance, with my parents), they were playing 'live' music ... covers of R.E.M. & Hootie and the Blowfish. Real R.E.M and Hootie and the Blowfish, sucks ... covers, doesn't even rate that.
 
Guys in Vermont, all drive gHay cars. A single guy that drives a Volvo, Honda or Volkswagon ... needs therapy. Some guy that didn't even have a car, tried to chat me up. I guess we were supposed to walk to his place.
 
Vermont girls have stupid hair. I think I was like four when that hyper-curly thing was cool. Then again, it's not their fault, because the entire state has no actual humidity. After two days, I had stupid hair too.
 
The ad section of the Houston Cronicle that I throw away without reading, is bigger than the entire Sunday paper in Burlington. In the Burlington paper, they want all Republicans to stand in front of the Nuremburg tribunal.
 
Vermont is much, much, much prettier than Houston, and far safer ... but I'm more than willing to make sacrifices for a society with real bars, guys with nice cars and not having to spread ten pounds of moisturizer on my skin every day. And I don't wear hoodies or flannel.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:29:00 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

He labels himself socialist



Merc, sorry to piss on your chips but I've never labeled myself a socialist in my life. You need to take care when you read.


You could no more "piss on my chips" than make a valid point, or count to 13, (the number of stripes on your "big flag"). However at least have the 'balls' or whatever the UK equivalent, and stand behind your position favoring socialism, or at the very least your posted abhorrence to industry and capitalism.

My friend, if ignorance is bliss, at the very least concerning the US, its people, and politics, you must be reveling in lunatic laughter.

Edited to add:

quote:

Socialism is about equal opportunity, merc

It is? That's what they are teaching in the UK? I thought only US schools re-wrote PC history texts. I, sorry I must claim a complete need for re-education. Do they have a camp for that? When was "equal opportunity" a part of socialism? There is equal opportunity in China? Was there in the USSR? Cuba-is that the socialist state of "equal opportunity"? 

I was correct then you're a proponent for 'socialism lite'? Your version of socialism isn't about the redistribution of property and state assets equally? Educate me - where is that in the textbook of "equal opportunity" socialism?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/2/2006 3:42:27 PM >

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RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:44:41 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

He labels himself socialist



Merc, sorry to piss on your chips but I've never labeled myself a socialist in my life. You need to take care when you read.


You could no more "piss on my chips" than make a valid point, or count to 13, (the number of stripes on your "big flag"). However at least have the 'balls' or whatever the UK equivalent, and stand behind your position favoring socialism,

Can you post the quote where I said I was a socialist or favoured socialism? You're jumping to conclusions.

or at the very least your posted abhorrence to industry and capitalism.

You're jumping to the wrong conclusion again. I've spent the last 11 years of my life working in industry. In fact, in finance. Merc, you've two options here 1) discuss the points being made e.g. the $125 billion comment or 2) jump to conclusions that have nothing to do with me and as such will get us nowhere in terms of a conversation.
 
If you're unsure on where my political beliefs lie why don't you just ask instead of arriving at conclusions that bear no relation to my posts.

My friend, if ignorance is bliss, at the very least concerning the US, its people, and politics, you must be reveling in lunatic laughter.

Again, you're making a giant leap. With the exception of the 52 states comment, can you point to one comment I've made on this thread, concerning the US, that isn't fact?


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:48:43 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlvrFox

When did we get 52 states?


A few years back.


_____________________________

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 3:52:24 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You could no more "piss on my chips" than make a valid point, or count to 13, (the number of stripes on your "big flag"). However at least have the 'balls' or whatever the UK equivalent, and stand behind your position favoring socialism, or at the very least your posted abhorrence to industry and capitalism.

My friend, if ignorance is bliss, at the very least concerning the US, its people, and politics, you must be reveling in lunatic laughter.


Socialism has never been about giving up private possessions but about the means of production and the denying of private capital the means to exploit citizens. Many Americans on CM complain about the power of corporations to sack workers and out source production to cheaper countries where the work force is exploited and thus denying Americans jobs. They are truely on the path to classical socialism but still have a way to go in that the next step is to be concerned about the workers abroad being exploited by the same capital that has dumped American workers without a second thought.

Karl Marx wrote about theories and practical aspects of socialism and is definitely worth a read if one can set aside ones prejudices and objectively give his reasoning a chance. The world has moved on and a lot of what he wrote is now redundant but much of it is still relevent and worth a read. There are definitely some cherries to be picked out of his work.

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RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 4:06:07 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		Communism in its classical form is about capital's power to deny workers the fruit of their labour. The mistake communist dictatorships made was equating private possessions and enterprise of individuals as being on par with capital which is completely different. Communist dictatorships were never truely communist, they were dictatorships because they denied the democracy that is at the heart of all communist manifestos that Marx and Engels had a hand in writing.  Frederick Engels is an interesting person to read and he wouldn't recognize communist regimes that came about and used his name, he would see them for what they were, nationalist dictatorships.

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RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 4:09:50 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Karl Marx wrote about theories and practical aspects of socialism and is definitely worth a read if one can set aside ones prejudices and objectively give his reasoning a chance. The world has moved on and a lot of what he wrote is now redundant but much of it is still relevent and worth a read. There are definitely some cherries to be picked out of his work.


The attraction of socialism is the goal of achieving a fair, contented society. Most of us want to achieve this, we simply have different views on the best strategy to get there.

The problem is that Socialism can not exist in a single country because external influences will, at some point, creep into a Socialist society and it will ultimately collapse (as the top end of the wealth gap will be attractive).

The interesting issue with Bernie Sanders is that he has actually formed coalitions with libertarian republicans who have equally been critical of corporate exploitation. My impression from some posters on this board is they have a deep rooted dislike of Socialism. Forget the ideology for a second, have a look at what the man is doing - he's trying to make a part of your country accessible to the working man, is that not commendable?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 4:17:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Communism in its classical form is about capital's power to deny workers the fruit of their labour. The mistake communist dictatorships made was equating private possessions and enterprise of individuals as being on par with capital which is completely different. Communist dictatorships were never truely communist, they were dictatorships because they denied the democracy that is at the heart of all communist manifestos that Marx and Engels had a hand in writing.  Frederick Engels is an interesting person to read and he wouldn't recognize communist regimes that came about and used his name, he would see them for what they were, nationalist dictatorships.


It's a fair comment. The world is yet to see a truly communist nation. We have seen totalitarian regimes which have persecuted people on a grand scale - completely against the grain of communist principle. These labels are thrown around to suit a purpose. Communism was a term that suited the Russians, Germans, Americans and British - it gave each of the 4 Goverments a banner to unite behind or fight against.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 4:17:50 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Karl Marx wrote about theories and practical aspects of socialism and is definitely worth a read if one can set aside ones prejudices and objectively give his reasoning a chance. The world has moved on and a lot of what he wrote is now redundant but much of it is still relevant and worth a read. There are definitely some cherries to be picked out of his work.

MC,
It's only because I have read it that I wondered where the "equal opportunity" got injected into his theories. The fault of Marx's socialist theory, by his one words admitted later in life, was it discounted human frailty. In particular it didn't take into account human greed, jealousy, and selfishness. It's why all attempts at implementing such a system have failed.

Cain and Able along with their parents Adam and Eve must have had to live as socialist or at least as social collective. Yet because it was perceive by Cain that Able was better at building his sacrifice, he had to kill him. In the old USSR you were entitled to 2 rolls of toilet paper per person per week. if you only used 2 pieces of toilet paper and your neighbor used 10 per crap, you may have felt 'equal' at the beginning of the week, but by Friday night you didn't have 'equal opportunity' for cleanliness. But you still had to share in the joy, that the 'state'  met their goal for toilet paper manufacturing anyway. If that was an truly an example of human behavior the USSR would still exist.

If Marx had written his tome in the days of Mohammad or even in the middle ages, socialism may well have been yet another religious sect. Similar to all religious dogma, there are merits.

NG,
Just one question considering your OP and all you've posted since, especially your disclaimers about your socialist leanings - What's your point?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 4:27:10 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		All political and economic philosophies when taken to the extreme become ideologies which is to be best avoided. One could argue that the American philosophy of the freedom of the individual has become an ideology to such a point that a single person or a comapny's oligarchy can accummulate such wealth and power that tens of thousands of peoples lives can be broken on an individual's whims.

But I agree, socialism needs an international dimension and without it, it is nothing. That is not to say that nothing can be learnt from socialist philosophies in the same way it would be a mistake to deny that nothing can be learnt from capitalist philosophies. A politician worth his salt would be well versed in both. Sadly in today's world, western politicians are populist and have little time for complex thought. To see a politician giving serious thought to problems and succeeding is refreshing.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 4:31:15 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

In the old USSR you were entitled to 2 rolls of toilet paper per person per week. if you only used 2 pieces of toilet paper and your neighbor used 10 per crap, you may have felt 'equal' at the beginning of the week, but by Friday night you didn't have 'equal opportunity' for cleanliness. But you still had to share in the joy, that the 'state'  met their goal for toilet paper manufacturing anyway. If that was an truly an example of human behavior the USSR would still exist.


In much of the world capitalism denies people the right of food and clothing in its exploitation and theft of natural resources that are under the feet of much of the poor.. Wiping their arses would be a luxury.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 4:33:39 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

religious sect. Similar to all religious dogma, there are merits.

NG,
Just one question considering your OP and all you've posted since, especially your disclaimers about your socialist leanings - What's your point?


My point is, from what I've seen, I like the man. I like his style. I like the fact he opposes corporate exploitation.  I like the fact he has relatively little money and is thus not a talking head for a slick, political party that will say anything to get wherever it wants to go.

The man has principles and some substance. I like that.  I like the fact he has a history of making a place work for working people. I like the fact he has opposed the Government in defence of the working man.

I like the fact he appears to be a man with whom you know where you stand - no bollocks, no heavy advertisement, no marketing, just a normal bloke who wants to do the best for normal blokes.

The point of the post - hats off to the man.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 11/2/2006 4:34:47 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Vermont - 11/2/2006 5:09:10 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

In much of the world capitalism denies people the right of food and clothing in its exploitation and theft of natural resources that are under the feet of much of the poor..


MC,
Here's how you lose me. How does capitalism do what you say? By its very nature, capitalism requires a market. In the poorest places in the world, remedial capitalism is the only method of survival. The "right of food and clothing"? It's humane to have food and clothing and to offer it when you have more than you require. The capitalist US provides an example of that practice. More charity has its source in the US than any other country. Before you argue that point, the total contribution of US aid is not limited to the US government. Add the contributions of all private US citizens and US based charity organizations and I stand behind that statement.
Is food and clothing a right? If it is capitalism supplies the food and clothing. It doesn't deny it. If you say there shouldn't be a monetary, or goods, or resource exchange; you are back to socialism, and you've already discounted the ability for that to succeed.

I don't equate good or bad to capitalism or socialism for that matter. What they have in common is the problem - corruption. It's inherent in both systems. Capitalists pay for influence, socialists conspire for it. Both point to "rights" to justify their actions. How many cars were burned today in France for the socialist "right" for not being accountable in their work? How many people died in Iraq today, because of the capitalist "right" fight for democracy just happens to provide a source of oil reserves? If democracy or 'inhumanity' to the indigenous people were the most important battle, we'd be in Darfar. But it seems both sides want to ignore what's happening there. 

I subscribe to the capitalist model because it is inherently self determining. It must create to survive, not wait for a handout. Reward a person, or a corporate entity for doing nothing and they will be become adept at doing just that. The prime example of that is the current government of the US.

Yet next Tuesday, most people will be handing out votes to the same group that collectively has done nothing. They'll rationalize it by voting for their party or their local representative not being "that bad"; but to make the election a referendum of "no confidence" is not a possibility. If enough of us voted against everyone in office regardless of the party, it would make a difference. At least it would be noticed.

NG,
THANKS for the clarification. On the merits of what you say, I appreciate your envy for the good folk of Vermont and holding them up as a beacon of hope for the rest of the US. If you're planning relocation or travel there, take a warm sweater, its one of the tests they use to determine if you're smart enough to stay and be a citizen.

In my youth during college I worked as an intern for Patrick Moynihan at the UN. He too was a beacon of principle and substance. He was the one bright spot in the bleak era known as the Jimmy Carter Presidency. It only took about a year in public office for his soul to be bought. I hope your man fairs better outside the snowy white hills of Vermont.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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