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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 8:25:04 AM

crouchingtigress

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that is sad

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 8:28:00 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

luckalbatross

Most people turn a safeword into a symbol- of trust, of faith, of romance, or strength. Which basically renders it useless for its ACTUAL purpose- signalling a problem.

Exactly, people put way much emotional investment into this, including myself when Sinergy and I first started playing. I still find it a little harsh that people are judgmental over others use of certain tools during their scene and put this whole entire emotional weight of using a "crutch", "distrusting your dominant", "not being a submissive" because you and your partner choose to employ a system of signals to denote something has went wrong during a scene. It really is not that complicated... you have a scene in which regular words may not be something you can use to stop, so you use an alternative word.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 8:40:56 AM

gypsygrl

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mistoferin,

You're exactly right, and don't worry about singling me out. :) I was just responding to the op and trying to emphasize how safe words work as a preventative for me.

It is a repsonse to being out of control. For me, to maintain some control has been necessary either because the scenes were casual, one time only, bottoming things or, because, when I was in a long term relationship, where there was some assumption of me giving up control, it just didn't work out.

I don't see it as trying to control the scene, though, or preventing the top from controlling it. My use of safewords has always been negotiated in advance, and no one I've scened with has ever questioned it. I'm not appraising the performance of the top, but appraising my own internal status and giving feedback. Ideally, it would be nice to be in a situation where this isn't necessary, but so long as I'm not in that situation, safe words serve a purpose.

But, your point's well taken. :)

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 9:00:28 AM

MasterFireMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

Safe words occur AFTER the fact. They do not occur before, or during; but after.

This isn't always true. In my part of the world, there's a fairly widely used system of green, yellow and red. Green and red are pretty obvious...yellow is used to indicate that a limit is being reached. So, in that instance, a safeword IS used before the damage is done.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 9:29:16 AM

Kalira

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quote:

To begin, a safeword is just a mystical name for communication that takes place during the course of a scene. It may be a "special" word that you have agreed upon, or it may simply be plainly spoken communication. Either way, it conveys the same information (something is wrong). It's not a "cloak of protection" against anything, but communication, used properly, can help prevent injuries.

I will not argue this point in general, only the part that many do 'rely' on safewords for protection; which is why I agree with the statement that 'its a cloak used for protection" Now granted, most of those who have been around long enough, know this to not be true; but for those just coming into the scene, this is what they are taught to believe.

quote:

And while we are all used to the existence of pain in a scene, we must also be aware of pain that shouldn't be there... of pain that in unintended or exceeds our expectations for what it is that we're doing. That pain is a warning sign, and to ignore those signs is...well... dangerous and foolish.

Once again, I will totally agree with the highlighted sections.

quote:

But if you communicate (ie: use a safeword) as your body clearly tells you that something is wrong, you'll probably avoid a problem in the first place

Ok, this is where I have to ask some things for clarification. Suppose...and this is just a hypothetical question...but suppose you are not able to understand your body that well ( in which case, yes I know, you should not be playing in the first place then ). There are those out there though, even those who have been in the scene for a good many years; that don't understand when their body is telling them "hey stop this, it's getting dangerous"

I am going to answer these from the perspective of being a slave

quote:

1. Do you not allow your bottom to communicate with you during a scene?

We always communicate.

quote:

2. Would you not react to your bottom if they told you that their shoulder or knee had become locked and something was going to give?

I have been in situations that it felt like my knee was going to give; however, it did not stop the scene. Did I use a safeword? Or some other form of communication? Facial expression, yes.

quote:

3. Are you so perfect at reading your bottom's body language that you couldn't benefit from plainly spoken warnings that something was wrong?

I would trust my partner to be able to read my body lanugage and facial expressions without me having to speak out about something.

quote:

4. Or do you simply not care what is happening to your bottom?

Again, I would trust Master to guage whether or not it is just the processing of new pain, or the possiblity of real danger/damage.

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RE: The use of safe words - 11/6/2006 9:37:54 AM

Kalira

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quote:

The only problem that I have found with safewords is once some subs are in subspace most can't remember their own name, let alone say a safeword. This is where the Domme has to use her skills and knowledge to look for signs of distress in the sub. I constantly check my sub while I am playing with him to make sure he is alright. Once you have played with someone awhile you learn to read their body language, the sound of their voice, their breathing etc. You can tell when they are high and flying, enjoying the scene or when a twinge of bad pain can cause them to crash.

Nicely said Ma'am.

quote:

Magic words are not a replacement for a Dominant that is in tune and paying attention.

My biggest beef with the safeword concept is that far too often I hear of Dominants who have these discussions with newer submissives and they talk of these safewords as if they are some kind of certified, stamped and approved ticket to safe scenes. I often see newbies who throw caution to the wind and common sense out the window because...."It'll all be fine...he gave me a safeword". Well, that's just fucking horsepuckey. I have also seen, especially in the case of those newer, Dominants who don't know when to end a scene without hearing the utterance of those magical words.

I agree with this totally.

quote:

Most people turn a safeword into a symbol- of trust, of faith, of romance, or strength. Which basically renders it useless for its ACTUAL purpose- signalling a problem.

Thank you LA. I believe that this is what Mercnbeth was trying to convey ( if I am wrong, then please correct me

) in the other thread.

quote:

However, in my opinion, any true scene that utilizes a safeword lacks the unmitigated bliss that a real power exchange should embody.

Ok, lol, I will admit that I agree completly with this.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 9:41:28 AM

Kalira

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quote:

you have a scene in which regular words may not be something you can use to stop, so you use an alternative word.

I will be totally honest here. Even if I told master to stop, he would not unless he was ready to stop. However, that is just the way OUR relationship is based. If I was in real trouble, he would know it without me having to say a word.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 9:44:27 AM

HalloweenWhite

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Safe words are used to make sure the sub. is ok. There are "degrees" of safe words, for example, you may choose to use "Green,Yellow,Red" as your safe words.

In general terms, Green means "this is great", Yellow means "starting to get a bit too much or slow down a bit" and Red means "Stop Now!".

In other words, if you use them properly the scene rarely, if ever gets out of hand and the sub. walks away sore but generally unharmed and before any real harm is done, so safe words are very useful AND important.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 9:57:17 AM

sapphirepleasure

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Gosh, so how are you protected? Did your Daddy do anything about this man's abuse of power and near harm of you? Is he more careful now to watch when an unknown dominant is using you?

I just don't understand this. You were being beaten on your spine to the point it could have led to paralysis, and you spoke up, for a very good reason, and the result was that you are no longer allowed to speak up under any circumstances, regardless of damage being done to you?

sp

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 10:24:51 AM

Archer

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The way I explain safewords is simple they are designed to be a start point for in scene verbal communication.
I almost never hear yellow. I hear yellow, yes what's wrong? my wrist is timgling like circulation loss has started. Ok let's adjust that.(resume scene. Or I hear Yellow!!!! Sir there is an ant that is biting my leg and distracting me from he scene.Or Yellow! yes what's wrong? Sir the noie in here from people talking is breaking my concentration. (glare to the offending parties along with a THE RULE SAYS whispers only if I'm upset enough).

I might here Yellow sir, things are just not working for me tonight getting to subspace if you want to continue o so knowing I'll likely not be flying.

But if I hear a safeword that is my cue to go check in and see what's up that I may be missing. It may or may not stop the scene it usually means I will adjust the scene becase I know more about what's happening than I did before the word was spoken.

They are not magical they simply make it less likely to miss when someone needs to communicate something.
When I train someone with safewords I train that they are never used without followup communication.
Now I have pushed Elegant beyond her safewords a few times based on the fact that we are in an M/s relationship but I have never ignored a safeword. I may hear it check in and decide I'm continueing anyway, but that iswithin the context of our relationship of 8+years.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 11:37:02 AM

CheM

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Alright, this is my first post here, let's hope I don't step on anyone's toes.

Here's my take on safewords.

Nothing, absolutely nothing can prevent a "bad top" (namely, someone who will purposefully hurt his/her bottom beyond whatever limits have been set) from going too far. It's up to the bottoms around to choose carefully who they play with. While I'm sure we'll all agree that nine out of ten people who are not interested in the same things we are will think we're a bunch of horrible sadists that do not care for one another, truth is that most of us do care about their partners. It's up to the submissives to realize if a dominant cares enough for them, as ultimately it's their bodies on the line.

Yet, even for those of us who are careful and caring (in our own ways, granted) mistakes can be made. The "sub-space" has been mentioned before, but which of you Tops out there will tell me that you don't enjoy the scene? It is extremely important for us not to get too carried away, but what if we do?

That's when safewords come into play. They are most important with new relationships or one-night kind of deals, because you have not had time to learn to read your partner's body. I once played for a little time with a girl that would scream and make faces as if the pain was unbearable, but when I stopped the first time she asked "what's going on?". I guess she just reacted that way, even though she was enjoying herself. Luckily, I've had no cases where the opposite has happened to me, but what if a bottom does not react in a way we'd think "ok, s/he is in obvious pain, and not the good kind"?

What I like to do is to teach my girls (I'm male and straight, but obviously the same thing could apply to men) that safewords are not to be used all the time. If that happens, there are two consequences. First of all, it'll get really dull to play with her, which will effectively stop the scene and if it's an ongoing thing, probably kill the relationship. Second, if we decide to go on, the safeword will just loose it's value. At some point I'll figure she's just using it for no good reason and carry on. But what if I that was the time she actually meant it? That "threat" is often good enough for them to understand safewords are not a tool to control the scene.

So far with my (limited, I'll admit) experience I've had no problems. If I see things are not going so well, I'll stop without the need of a safeword, but at the same time I have the knowledge that if I ever mess up and make a bad judgement, my girl will have a way to let me know.

About the bottoms not remembering the words, what I usually do is let them choose it. As far as I know, I'm always much more aware of the situation than them, and it's easier for me to remember a word of their choosing than the opposite. I don't know how good that works, because I am aware of my lack of experience and so I am very careful, even if sometimes I stop when I don't NEED to. Yet it's good to know that if it's ever necessary, my girl will have a way to let me know. As long as the bottoms don't over-use it, I see no harm with safewords. If the bottoms are using it to control the scene, that's the mark of either a bad bottom, a bad top or just a bad relationship. After all, if the bottom is not willingly giving control away, no top should force them to. It's part of the rules, right? "Safe, consentual..." and all that hopabloopla

.

Anyway, that's what I think... doesn't mean I'm right, but so far it has worked for me, so I figured I'd share it with you all.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 12:11:47 PM

akisha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

In my own experience...I once had a Dominant abruptly end a scene because I apparently said the word "purple" He assumed that in my delirium I confused my colors. In actuality, purple is the color I most often experience in subspace. My utterance of it was indicative that I was in a really good place....not in trouble. On another occasion I was involved in a scene that went really bad. I tried communicating openly....didn't work. I tried communicating a bit more forcefully....didn't work. Yes, I even resorted to saying and then screaming the most common "magic" word "red"......guess what....that didn't work either. Later at the hospital while I was being stitched up....I came to terms with the fact that I was the responsible party for the failure of the scene. A bit more common sense and forethought on my part would have kept me from participating.

I just wanted to reply on this point that mistoferin made.

I to have a tendancy to say wierd things, that i have no idea I'm saying.

As for safewords, most the time I can't count or say my own name so thinking of a safeword is pretty much not going to happen.

I do think they are a good idea in theory, tho like many others that responded I prefer just saying that something feels wrong.

As for safewords being used to late. You should ideally know your own body and if the last strike hurt like hell and you know you can't take another then safeword. If you can feel your shoulder startig to seize then safeword before it dislocates etc.

Common sense really does have alot to do with everthing we do. You have to let the other person know what is going on, as they can't read your mind, and body language can only say so much.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 2:46:56 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PhilLogan

Safewords remove power from the D to the sub. It is McBondage.

All scenes should be handled with care. If you are topping and you do not know when your subject is not ina good place, then you need to introspectively discern what you are doing wrong.

Phil, have you ever done something wrong during a scene? Just wondering where you're coming from.

John

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 2:49:33 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PhilLogan

I would think that any woman under my hand would say, "Harry, I am going to throw up!" I think at that point I would stop the scene.

And you have discovered the use of safewords (without the mystical mumbo jumbo). Do you want Mcfries with that Mcbondage?

John

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 2:57:41 PM

Emperor1956

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I have not read all of the posts (I rarely do that, but in this case I'm gonna make myself the exception) because this is about the 731st thread on safewords, why, how, yes, no, twue or not. Rover, Archer and MasterFireMaam all got it right. In the past I've posted in detail about the moral and legal ramifications of safewords, and why I believe current legal issues in WIIWD dictate that everyone regardless of experience or desire should have some safewords in place to evidence consent to a third party if necessary.

All I want to add that while we have them with our respective
bottoms/submissives/slaves, we rarely, if ever, hear them. Safewords exist, but in over 25 years of doing what I do, I can count on the fingers of one hand how often I've heard one. I suspect the experienced Tops who use safewords will agree.

E.

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 3:20:29 PM

LordODiscipline

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Daddysprop -
By the logic you displayed, screaming for help while being raped would also be fruitless and would be a controlling thing.

Just because one person did not use it, does not mean it should not be available... if it had worked, then what excuse would you use>? And, it is not controlling someone (this classically sophist rhetoric is rather pervasive among the "uber slave" set) to put a stop to someone who is damaging your master's property...

My girl has one edict above all others - protect what is mine...

She has not used a safe word - but, she definitively would stop the scene if someone was violating that tennet.

~J

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 3:39:18 PM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PhilLogan

Safewords remove power from the D to the sub. It is McBondage.

How many times have we heard people say that topping and bottoming is not always about D/s?

This argument against safewords becomes meaningless when two play partners have no D/s relationship between them at all. One is not submitting or dominating the other; they are just having fun together.

I think I have seen as much (if not more) play between people who are not in D/s relationships than play between couples who do have formal D/s relationships.

Knight's kyra

< Message edited by kyraofMists -- 11/6/2006 3:40:35 PM >

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 3:45:40 PM

LordODiscipline

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PhilLogan

Safewords remove power from the D to the sub. It is McBondage.

All scenes should be handled with care. If you are topping and you do not know when your subject is not ina good place, then you need to introspectively discern what you are doing wrong.

You might be introspecitively not allowing yourself to know while her back is to you because you are overtly not allowing her a safe word....

And, why would a safe word inhibit a scene?

Or are you going for McLawsuits?

Wonderingly:

~J

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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 4:02:47 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Rover, Archer and MasterFireMaam all got it right.

Damn! I got it wrong.
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RE: The use of safewords - 11/6/2006 4:17:07 PM

empresschaos

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There are times when the safeword is appropriate, I think, and a lot of couples do use "yellow" as a pre-safeword to indicate that they are near or at their limit. It's certainly not going to keep you or anyone else safe all by itself. After a scene, my partner and I would discuss what worked, and what didn't, and what could have been done better. Sometimes I really, genuinely hated something, and he loved it so much I decided to get used to it, but he knew to take it gently next time. Other times, he was ambivalent about something until I raved about how great it was. And, of course, there were things I simply couldn't accomodate, like hefty nipple torture, that I did actually use a safeword for. And there was no lasting damage done, he just took the scene in a different direction.

I would say that if your dom is not aware that you are not responding normally to the scene, or thinks that what s/he is doing is just stretching your limits, then maybe s/he should consider spending some time in less intense play to get used to what you sound like and look like in ecstasy. Because, really, although it's a good idea to have something to indicate a real, live "no", what sub wants to have to be a party pooper with the safeword? Wouldn't we all rather that our tops just knew us well enough for it to be moot?

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