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RE: The use of safewords - 11/7/2006 8:43:50 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

Safe words occur AFTER the fact. They do not occur before, or during; but after.


Well the premiss just doesn't hold, for starters.

In the midst of some spirited and sweaty mutual exercise, T opens drawer, lifts out 9mm semi-automatic, partially drops clip to verify payload status. Slaps clip back in, releases safety, shoves B's mouth open with fingers of other hand and (all the while still pumping away) begins to move the 9's muzzle into position between B's upper and lower incisors.

B says the safeword.

What's the fact that this is after? What is the damage that has been done and can't be undone?

Safe words are indeed used before, duing and after. The premiss of this thread is BALONEY.

This gun scene is one clear instance. I can give you more, continuously, until I have to pause for a sandwich and then I could go on for a few more hours yet.

To frame a discussion of safewords with a premiss like "they occur after the fact" is simply to ignore vast quantities of plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face facts. Which of course will lead to a pretty useless discussion unless someone points out the error.

Glad I could help.

Sure, it is possible to safeword after a given fact is instantiated. I'm sure it happens a lot. As others have said it may be because the victim is unwilling or feels unable to endure another instantiation of that fact. In such cases the safeword isn't "about" what just happened but about what is about to happen if the rhythm keeps up.

Way back when I found out that other people liked some of the same things I did and the term safe-word entered my vocabulary, its meaning was given as simple and very cut and dried. Not magical at all.

Lots of victims (let it stand for subs and slaves and bottoms and masochists and all sorts of do-ees as opposed to do-ers) enjoy sometimes to have the liberty to scream (or whisper for that matter) the word "No." the word "stop" and all sorts of similar sentiments when in fact their bottom line desire is for events to continue. The typical rape fantasy enactment is a fine sort of example. So "no"'s are to be--well not ignored, exactly, enjoyed to the fullest by all parties is what they should be. But "no"'s by mutual understanding shouldn't signal an end to the proceedings, as such.

And the "no"'s can be as creative as you like. Maybe the "victim" knows the perpetrator is allergic to stings and yell's "Stop! There is a swarm of bees behind you." The bad guy can plough away serene in the knowledge
that this is but another a cunning "no" and is not to be heeded.

If the victim actually sees a hornet on the bad guy's horn-rims, headed for his anaphylactic ear, and wants compassionately to alert him, she says "Safeword" or a facsimile thereof--followed by the key facts--and hopefully no one has to jump off the roof.

The primary use of a safeword as it was taught to me so long ago is to liberate a lot of other language for quite impassioned and maybe cathartic use, use which may be disingenuous in terms of face value but which allows exploration of deeper truths--or just facilitates fun. And that--as teh kids used to say, is all good. The accent was not on "safe". That's just something to call this scening device.

Do some people invest nearly magical power in the availability of safewords? I think some do. This is an indictment of poor judgement on the part of the individual at issue rather than in ant way being an indictment of safewords. What device in this whole round world do you know of that can't be mis-used or mis-relied upon?

Safewords aren't to my personal taste. Having been around the block a few times I have experience with them. I don't swear never to employ them again, in fact I can envision situations in which I would find it appropriate. But in fact it has been along time and I may expire before ever agreeing to one again.

As it happens neither do I subscribe to the tenets of SSC.

More important than either of those preferences is the fact that I don't presume to call my expression of myself through WIITWD Realer And Truer than your expression of yourself just because you may hold closer with safewords and/or SSC than I do--or reject them even more thoroughly than I do.

As for claims that D/s is not Weal and Twue if the inferior person has access to a safeword, all I can say is maybe that's the case in someone's tiny little black and white, ignorant-of-the-complexities-of-human-interaction world. That's a pity for you but if you're making your way in the world on those terms I have no interest in converting you. Rock your monkey to the moon.

Some people have much subtler and richer notions of D and s and have more ways of finding meaning in these activities and more meanings to find than are available in space in which you choose to operate. This fact is demonstrated by their ability to have fulfilling BDSM experiences under conditions which by your own account would make this impossible for you.

That is to say: with a safeword.

Sputter and fume if you like. It is kind of fun to watch. But know that your claims that This Is Impossible are proved wrong every day by the shared experience of thousands of people who do agree on a safeword before proceeding.

They can do something you can't. Why you think that entitles you to a sense of superiority is a mildly amusing conundrum but not an important one in my view.

By coming here and calling anyone who uses a safeword inauthentic you make yourself look like some ren-faire freake who waltzes into a university history department and announces to the faculty that they don't REALLY understand history because they aren't wearing merkins and misusing obsolete syntax.

No I'm not suggesting that safeworders are more better than non-safe-worders. I'm a non-safe-worder ferchrissakes. I'm suggesting that bullshit is bullshit.

This posts addresses whomever may read it and fit the description(s) given, notjust the person indicated at lower right. If you have never claimed your kink was more authetic than that of safe-worders then that complaint does not target you. My remaining complaints are targetted in the same manner.

If you have claimed that since you don't use safewords your kink is indeed more authentic than someone else's: Get the fuck over yourself. There is more than one way to do WIITWD and the fact that some of those ways aren't to your taste, or are beyond your understanding, does not disqualify them nor make your shit smell like roses.



Yup... got to repost this one...

It is so much easier to post my thoughts on the subject when I can just repost words that speak opinions that I can agree with.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: The use of safewords - 11/7/2006 9:05:26 PM   
beltainefaerie


Posts: 610
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you, knightofmists for that eloquent post.  Here are my 2 cents, and some experiences, as well. 
For me, safewords or safe signals can serve a variety of purposes.  Several people have mentioned that they are a way for the sub to truly be in control.  I think if they are used poorly, this can be the case.  However, my sisterslave and I have the option to use words (classic red, yellow,etc) and basically never do.  The only time I have used a safeword or signal had to do with things my Master could not possibly know, like my arm is asleep.  If He chose to continue to hold me in that position for awhile, I would trust Him to monitor that I was not going to be damaged by lack of circulation, but without that knowledge, His focus could be elsewhere.  I'm not telling Him where to beat me, or with what or how long.  I'm not dictating what He must do.  I am merely offering information, which may be relevant to the situation.  It allows a pause for evaluation of the situation.  As I said, their use is rare, but important.  On the few occasions they have been used, He made a slight adjustment and continued to use me in the manner He saw fit.  I still submit to whatever He chooses to do with the information I've shared.  I think it is a matter of perspective.  Since we understand what the words mean to us, there is no problem.  However, if He played with someone who thought red should mean stop, cease, desist, scene over, and they had not discussed things ahead of time, the scene could go badly.  As in all things, I think the communication at all times is key.  Whether you need to say, "Sir my elbow is locked" or, "Master, I've dislocated my shoulder," it is easier for some people to communicate clearly after the beating has stopped, rather than choked out between blows.  A safeword can signal a pause in which the sub can speak such things.  All of that said, I'm not big with making people do things my way.  If safewords work for you, enjoy them.  If you think they are a stupid waste of time, then play with people that don't care to use them.  I think that some of what people have against them is simply that some asshole they played with negotiated as if they would be used and then ignored them.  This is an unacceptable failure of honesty on the part of the Dom and not an inherent failure of the safe words.  They are not a substitute for clear communication, but can faciliate it.  They can also be useful in defining limits for new players. I have done scenes that were designed to find out how much I could take of a given implement.  When I didn't think I could handle any more, I tried to hold on a little longer, and if I could not, used my safeword.  We were trying to find how far to push me and I think safewords can be very useful for that kind of exploration. 
So, use words or not, as long as you are safe and comfortable.

< Message edited by beltainefaerie -- 11/7/2006 9:16:04 PM >

(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: The use of safe-words - 11/7/2006 9:25:23 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel
However, the fact that some people here have so little imagination or experience that they cannot even conceive of the scenarios for which coded words represent clearer communication than "Ow, my hair", really does not concern me.  What DOES concern me is that some of these people insist on being rude, condescending, and spreading misinformation in a public forum where many newcomers to BDSM come to learn the ropes (and chains) of this lifestyle.

I have tried to provide examples of scenes in which safewords are better than "Fucking quit it".  Synergy has done the same--so have other posters.  The problem is not that we are not communicating--the problem is that you are not listening or even trying to listen.


Morrigel, although I don't agree with all you have to say on the subject, I do respect your choice to do what works for you and the passion with which you speak. However, you brought up another one of my passions and the reason I fight this particular issue so hard. Newbies.

You mentioned something about some of us possibly lacking experience or imagination. Let me address that first. As to the experience portion I can tell you that I have been doing this in real time, both in my personal life and at the local and statewide community level, since the age of 15. I am now 44 so I am sure that everyone can do that math. If I were to fill out one of those ever popular BDSM checklists I would have to say that there would not much that I have not experienced or at the very least seen done. So I guess I'd dare to say that there would be little that my imagination could not conjure up.

Now back to safewords and newbies. There was a time when safewords were gaining popularity that I actually thought them a good idea. Many years of watching them fail have changed that opinion. Now in this new enlightened time I have seen the safeword thrown about in yet a new way. So many newbies are told that it is the thing that will keep them safe from harm. It's simply just not true and it's a message that I will not pass along to them. They need to be aware that they need to keep all of their common sense about them, make good, fact based decisions regarding who they submit to and play with, they need to be told to keep their hormones in check and not be in such a frenzied rush to experience it all and they need to be told that clear and concise communication is essential.

I have been very active on safeword threads here. On them I have given numerous examples of real life instances of safe word failures that I have either experienced, witnessed or become involved in cleaning up the mess after the fact. Those failures have changed my view and I have found that the look that I found in the eyes of those who were failed by them fuels my passion when I speak on this topic. It may seem to some that I am being reckless in my advice. I can only say to them that my words on this subject have been thought upon for a very long time...and I say what I feel in my heart is the right thing for them to know.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 11/7/2006 9:39:30 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Morrigel)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/7/2006 10:01:23 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin



Now back to safewords and newbies. There was a time when safewords were gaining popularity that I actually thought them a good idea. Many years of watching them fail have changed that opinion. Now in this new enlightened time I have seen the safeword thrown about in yet a new way. So many newbies are told that it is the thing that will keep them safe from harm. It's simply just not true and it's a message that I will not pass along to them. They need to be aware that they need to keep all of their common sense about them, make good, fact based decisions regarding who they submit to and play with, they need to be told to keep their hormones in check and not be in such a frenzied rush to experience it all and they need to be told that clear and concise communication is essential.

I have been very active on safeword threads here. On them I have given numerous examples of real life instances of safe word failures that I have either experienced, witnessed or become involved in cleaning up the mess after the fact. Those failures have changed my view and I have found that the look that I found in the eyes of those who were failed by them fuels my passion when I speak on this topic. It may seem to some that I am being reckless in my advice. I can only say to them that my words on this subject have been thought upon for a very long time...and I say what I feel in my heart is the right thing for them to know.


i am confused about this.  So are you advocating NO safeword for newbies?  i mean, let's think outside of the box of 'red' for a minute.  Shouldn't a newbie be advised to at least speak out if something gets too rough? 
 
Is this a point of not using the standard 'red' safeword....or does it exclude any means of communicating by the sub?  And saying 'my hand is going numb' is not a safeword of sorts....if it stops the scene?
 
i'm hearing 2 different things here....one is not to use a safeword....but the other one is communication is needed.  Well if communication stops the scene, what's really the difference?
 
DG

< Message edited by adaddysgirl -- 11/7/2006 10:02:05 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/7/2006 10:13:48 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		This thread has gotten as pointless as the last 343 "Safewords:  Threat or Menace?" threads.  I'll sit here and watch the people with their McTattoos talk about their McMotorcycles and wonder about their transient, sad McRelationships.  Because, as julia and I and everyone reading KNOW, that "Mc" comparison is flattering and meaningful.

Right?

E.

< Message edited by Emperor1956 -- 11/7/2006 10:14:31 PM >

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/7/2006 10:14:14 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So many newbies are told that it is the thing that will keep them safe from harm.



Care to provide postings where people stated this?  Or is this simply your own personal opinion on the matter?

I dont recall anybody on any safe word threads making the statement that a safe word is a magical protective shield which will keep them safe from harm.  But I would be willing to read it if you can provide it for us.

quote:



On them I have given numerous examples of real life instances of safe word failures that I have either experienced, witnessed or become involved in cleaning up the mess after the fact.



Having worked in the industry, I can probably come up with a few examples where people died because they were wearing their seat belts.  Does this mean nobody should wear their seat belt?

There is no safe way to do a dangerous thing.  The only thing that we here in the lifestyle can do is to mitigate and reduce risk.  Safe words are one method of minimizing risk in a dangerous endeavor.

Notice that I did not say they are the only or best way.

I have heard the vehemence with which you litigate against anything that remotely smacks of a safe word.  However, I do not recall any instance where you have provided an alternative approach.  As the one poster stated, using a canned word like "pineapple" is something which a submissive in deep sub space and a desire to get out of it can remember to utter, leaving the process of retrieval of said submissive up to the top.

I would prefer to hear your solutions to the problem, rather than continual attacks on a solution which works for some people.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/7/2006 10:29:56 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl
i am confused about this.  So are you advocating NO safeword for newbies?  i mean, let's think outside of the box of 'red' for a minute.  Shouldn't a newbie be advised to at least speak out if something gets too rough? 
 
Is this a point of not using the standard 'red' safeword....or does it exclude any means of communicating by the sub?  And saying 'my hand is going numb' is not a safeword of sorts....if it stops the scene?
 
i'm hearing 2 different things here....one is not to use a safeword....but the other one is communication is needed.  Well if communication stops the scene, what's really the difference?


DG, I actively encourage open, concise and clear communication. I would never tell a sub to not convey to a Dominant that they needed to stop a scene. What I rally against is "code words" and the use of them as a failsafe method that reduces their need to use good judgement, make good decisions and apply common sense.

On a fairly recent thread I outlined a scene at a local event where a submissive safeworded...just as she had been trained to do. The scene stopped immediately. Unfortunately for the next five minutes she could not stop screaming that safeword. It seriously complicated things for those who rushed to her aid, took her down and turned her over and over looking for the injury that was driving her screams.

As it turned out she had a very serious back injury. All of the efforts of the rescuers could have done her more damage than good. Had she screamed "my back, my back" instead of that code word, everyone on scene would have known where the problem lied and would have taken different measures in treating her.

Just one example. I have outlined numerous others here. And despite the insistence of some here to the contrary...clear and concise communication is a viable alternative to "code words".

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 11/7/2006 10:30:20 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 12:19:16 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

This thread has gotten as pointless as the last 343 "Safewords:  Threat or Menace?" threads.  I'll sit here and watch the people with their McTattoos talk about their McMotorcycles and wonder about their transient, sad McRelationships.  Because, as julia and I and everyone reading KNOW, that "Mc" comparison is flattering and meaningful.

Right?

E.


Future reference for people, I do not find any aspect of Sinergy and my relationship or how we scene compared with McDonalds. I boycott them utterly and completely. If I was going to have a McScene it would be as a punishment in which Sinergy forces me to eat every meal there for a week, but I would have to say that this is unsafe and may require a safeword before I croak over from that toxic sludge. So  RED RED RED RED

It is probably not exactly nice to say that one person's relationship communication style is a diamond and another's is a cubic zirconia either. They may look the same, but one is rare and precious, and the other just isn't... but that is just my opinion. Other people posting here seem to think that this is flattering... I would challenge those people to label themselves a McSub or a McDom.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/8/2006 12:20:50 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 3:26:10 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

" Hey,  Fucking Stop! I just ..... (broke my hip, crossed my threshhold, had a heart attack., etc....)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Thank you for proving our argument that having safe words are a good thing for people in the lifestyle to have to protect the people involved.


No, that would be open communication, not a safe word.
 
 Go n-ithe an cat thú is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

I have tried to provide examples of scenes in which safewords are better than "Fucking quit it".  Synergy has done the same--so have other posters.  The problem is not that we are not communicating--the problem is that you are not listening or even trying to listen.

Too bad we don't have a safeword, eh?   Because I would say that there are more than a few people here missing the point. 


I've read this thread from front to back and i have to say that , no, no one is missing the point, they simply do not agree with the point you and Sinergy are trying to make.
 
The problem is not lack of communication, the problem is apparently that others have disagreed with the point you both are trying to make and are not being swayed by either of your opinions.
 




< Message edited by twicehappy -- 11/8/2006 3:54:05 AM >

_____________________________

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The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 3:47:19 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

And for the record...I do care about what I say. I know that I am rather abrasive and to the point. I've tried it the other way too and decided I didn't like the sugar coated version. Kind of awkward and like trying to wear someone else's shoes. No one else really liked it much either. People in my life actually appreciate that I am straight up with them and that they always know exactly where I stand...no head games, no second guessing or having to try to figure out what I mean by what I say.....go figure.
 


Erin, much like the dinosaurs you mention in your profile being upfront and honest have become antiquated. It is ok because i like antiques.
 
Perhaps that is why i prefer the company of old bikers, they tend to say exactly what they mean. You do not have to attempt to figure out if you are being bamboozled with a barrage of sugar coated monkey droppings by someone who is smiling in your face while preparing the venom coated blade behind your back. 
 
Being PC and the whole "why can't we all just get along" routine has become a clever way of being just as rude as you wish by using the correct words and phrases to cover your actual intentions.
 
As a very wise old biker once said to me over a bottle of Jack out in the wee hours of the morning after a putt;
 
"Say what you mean, mean what you say and fuck them if they can't take a joke"(R-S.B.)

You know i had to edit this after reading this entire thread again. Have you noticed that when some folks lose their ability to have an intelligent debate it seems to go back to personal slams? 

Until i made the above post there was no mention i could find (it is possible i missed one though) of motorcycles and i made none about tattoos yet i read this quote;

"the people with their McTattoos talk about their McMotorcycles and wonder about their transient, sad McRelationships".

I wonder if this is basic prejudice or envy.

Not that i took it as aimed at me this time because i have posted very little of late being quite tired of the way any attempt at honest debate devolves to name calling here anymore. It often sounds more like an elementary school play ground than a forum board for adults. 

You know "Sally Jane does not want to agree my game rules are better than hers so she is a poop head" or "my dad is better than yours because he drives a Mercedes while your dad drives a 4 by 4" or " I'm way cooler than you because i wear proper button down shirts and you dress like a Goth".





< Message edited by twicehappy -- 11/8/2006 4:35:00 AM >

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 5:06:55 AM   
Morrigel


Posts: 492
Joined: 10/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
However, you brought up another one of my passions and the reason I fight this particular issue so hard. Newbies.


As far as I'm concerned, the attitudes expressed by you and many other posters here are the equivalent of telling a teenager with a new driver's license "Don't bother wearing a seatbelt--they just make you think you're safe so you'll drive badly."

Seriously, that is how you and others are coming across.

Is a seatbelt "magic"?  No.  It is just a safety measure that works in many, many instances, to prevent serious injury in the event of a genuine accident.  Will a seatbelt save you if you happen to be parked when David Berkowitz walks up to the car?  No, of course it won't.  Seatbelts are not designed to save you from a person with evil intent.  They are designed to save you in the event of an accident.

The problem, as I see it, is that you and many others seem to believe that there is no such thing as a scene which goes wrong accidentally, through an unintended error on the part of the top.  I assure you from personal experience that you are mistaken.

That is the last I have to say on the subject.  Safewords:  intended to prevent accidents.  There is no safeword in the world that will ever prevent an intentional rape.  Nor has anyone claimed that a safeword was useful in that context.

The only way to prevent rape is to vet the people you scene with very carefully, or to scene only in protected public play areas--which many people in this community do, specifically because they want their limits and safety concerns to be protected stringently.

If your objection to safewords is that they are not a substitute for working with a person in whom you have reason to place trust--fine, go ahead and say that.  Make the point, make it clearly, and skip the personal attacks on those who defend the practice of the safeword as useful when it is used correctly.

Honestly, the rest of the contemptuous, belittling, adolescent rhetoric that is loaded onto the discussion is worse than useless and simply makes all "safeword opponents" come across as extremely juvenile, willfully offensive, and deliberately malicious to the safety of those who come here and read the forums to learn something.

--M


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 5:08:07 AM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

DG, I actively encourage open, concise and clear communication. I would never tell a sub to not convey to a Dominant that they needed to stop a scene. What I rally against is "code words" and the use of them as a failsafe method that reduces their need to use good judgement, make good decisions and apply common sense.



Exactly.

I can yell at Master all the safe-word-code-word's you can think of, and it will do only one thing. Cause him to smile and keep right on going.

If I scream at him "hey motherfucker, that fucking hurt", you can bet he's going to stop to see WHY it hurt that bad. If my facial expression changes in the smallest of ways, you can bet that he's going to stop to find out what is wrong. If I tense up my body at a certain point, you can bet he's going to stop to find out why.

All forms of communication; all forms of KNOWING the person that we are with.

No special WORD will ever take the place of that.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 5:28:55 AM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

DG, I actively encourage open, concise and clear communication. I would never tell a sub to not convey to a Dominant that they needed to stop a scene. What I rally against is "code words" and the use of them as a failsafe method that reduces their need to use good judgement, make good decisions and apply common sense.



i see now, erin.  As angelic, i really have no opinion on safewords at this time.  i mean the closest i ever came to that was when my hand went numb due to too tight restraints.  i tried to let it go but it was very distracting...and then i had a vision of it turning purple and some possible loss of use (ok, maybe a little drama there...lol)....so i just blurted out 'my hand'.  i certainly don't see that as a form of control....i see it as common sense....just to point out something my partner was not aware of. 
 
i personally have never heard of a dom complaining his sub uses a safeword too much.  i really don't think a sub likes to use them overall but sometimes, something needs to be said when a partner might not be aware of a potential danger.  And if not a word like red, at least some short phrase of sorts.  And if a dom has to be so concerned that his sub might use this form of protection as some way to control or manipulate him, then he is probably with the wrong sub.  *shrugs*
 
But i think i got it straight now what you are saying.  my main concern was the issue about the newbies...but i think you've cleared that up.
 
And now i see we're getting on the 'Mc-something' brigade.  Ahhh....some things will never change 
 
DG
 
 

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 5:33:55 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		I believe that some people are becoming fixated upon the fact that nothing (including safewords that are mystical, or safewords that are plainly spoken) makes an environment completely safe.  That does not, however, preclude them from making the environment safe-ER (ie: more safe, to use improper grammar).
 
If you dismiss everything that does not guarantee a completely safe environment (free from risk) you will not leave your bed in the morning (of course, there is the eventual risk of bedsores). 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 5:42:32 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

As far as I'm concerned, the attitudes expressed by you and many other posters here are the equivalent of telling a teenager with a new driver's license "Don't bother wearing a seatbelt--they just make you think you're safe so you'll drive badly."

Seriously, that is how you and others are coming across.


And just exactly how does my advice to use common sense, make good fact based decisions when choosing a partner and use constant clear, concise communication with your Top compare to "Don't bother wearing a seatbelt"?

quote:

The problem, as I see it, is that you and many others seem to believe that there is no such thing as a scene which goes wrong accidentally, through an unintended error on the part of the top.  I assure you from personal experience that you are mistaken. 


Really? You must be reading an entirely different thread than I am. I have even given an example of just such a scene. If you take the time to go search out the 26 entries that pop up when you search my name and safewords...you will also see that I have provided numerous examples of such scenes.

quote:

  That is the last I have to say on the subject.  Safewords:  intended to prevent accidents.  There is no safeword in the world that will ever prevent an intentional rape.  Nor has anyone claimed that a safeword was useful in that context.

The only way to prevent rape is to vet the people you scene with very carefully, or to scene only in protected public play areas--which many people in this community do, specifically because they want their limits and safety concerns to be protected stringently.


Well I am not sure where this whole intentional rape thing is coming in but.....I wholeheartedly agree. Many times over I have posted that there are no words that will save you if you find yourself bound at the hands of a psychopath. That is where the good, fact based decisions and common sense when choosing a partner comes in.

quote:

  If your objection to safewords is that they are not a substitute for working with a person in whom you have reason to place trust--fine, go ahead and say that.  Make the point, make it clearly, and skip the personal attacks on those who defend the practice of the safeword as useful when it is used correctly.

Honestly, the rest of the contemptuous, belittling, adolescent rhetoric that is loaded onto the discussion is worse than useless and simply makes all "safeword opponents" come across as extremely juvenile, willfully offensive, and deliberately malicious to the safety of those who come here and read the forums to learn something.


I have said just exactly that...many times. A safe word is no replacement for common sense. A safe word is no replacement for making good, sound decisions and choosing a partner that you feel you can trust. A safe word is no replacement for a Dom who is in tune.

I'm sorry that you perceive that I have belittled those who choose to use safewords. I respect the right for you to have your opinion on this issue....I just don't agree with it. Please respect the right for me to have mine.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Morrigel)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 5:47:06 AM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Thank you for proving our argument that having safe words are a good thing for people in the lifestyle to have to protect the people involved.


No, that would be open communication, not a safe word.
 



OMG....is this whole debate really about the difference between a safeword (like red)....and a phrase like 'ow, my hand'? 
 
It seems most here (with the exception of a few who believe in absolutely no communication of any sort) are in agreement that stopping a scene is sometimes necessary....some use a word, and others a phrase.  And that some are vehemently against using a single word as a safeword?  Who cares?  lol
 
Wow...you people really have too much time on your hands!
 
DG

(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 5:51:05 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
You know i had to edit this after reading this entire thread again. Have you noticed that when some folks lose their ability to have an intelligent debate it seems to go back to personal slams? 

Until i made the above post there was no mention i could find (it is possible i missed one though) of motorcycles and i made none about tattoos yet i read this quote;

"the people with their McTattoos talk about their McMotorcycles and wonder about their transient, sad McRelationships".

I wonder if this is basic prejudice or envy.

Not that i took it as aimed at me this time because i have posted very little of late being quite tired of the way any attempt at honest debate devolves to name calling here anymore. It often sounds more like an elementary school play ground than a forum board for adults. 

You know "Sally Jane does not want to agree my game rules are better than hers so she is a poop head" or "my dad is better than yours because he drives a Mercedes while your dad drives a 4 by 4" or " I'm way cooler than you because i wear proper button down shirts and you dress like a Goth".


A personal slam?....oh seriously twice, no member of the opposing position would ever stoop so low really.

Actually....I thought that just the fact that it was a there was a rather cool compliment...lol.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 5:57:29 AM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I believe that some people are becoming fixated upon the fact that nothing (including safewords that are mystical, or safewords that are plainly spoken) makes an environment completely safe.  That does not, however, preclude them from making the environment safe-ER (ie: more safe, to use improper grammar).
 
If you dismiss everything that does not guarantee a completely safe environment (free from risk) you will not leave your bed in the morning (of course, there is the eventual risk of bedsores). 
 
John


Well i would think nothing could guarantee a scene completely safe...or foolproof.  And if you happen to have a nut for a partner, he might not stop anyway whether you use one word or 20 words.  But true, at least some type of communication should be available to make the attempt to make it safer anyway. 
 
i thought this started out as a couple saying they use no means of communication at all.....but now it seems to have turned into the difference between the use of one particular word....or several.  What a hoot! 
 
DG

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 6:00:33 AM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I believe that some people are becoming fixated upon the fact that nothing (including safewords that are mystical, or safewords that are plainly spoken) makes an environment completely safe.  That does not, however, preclude them from making the environment safe-ER (ie: more safe, to use improper grammar).
 
If you dismiss everything that does not guarantee a completely safe environment (free from risk) you will not leave your bed in the morning (of course, there is the eventual risk of bedsores). 
 
John

Ok John, I will agree with you here

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: The use of safe-words - 11/8/2006 6:00:36 AM   
spankmepink11


Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline 		The thing that strikes me as slightly ironic, is the fact that  whether or not one communicates their feelings in the form of a "safeword" or "open communication" that both are designed to to do one thing, insure the ultimate physical safety of the sub/slave/bottom/masochist.    The terms   "safe word" and "open communication" are only useful tools to those that adhere to the concern of the person with whom they are involved.  As erin pointed out in one of her posts...she tried both  open communication and safewords to no avail.  I think the  issue more at hand is not about the difference between the two, but the fact that before someone becomes involved with a scene Partner to the depth of needing a safe word or open communication , then they had better be aware of the persons philosophy regarding such.   Having a safeword in place or using open communication insures nothing if both partners are not on the same page.  How people choose to convey that is their own business, no rights,,,,no wrongs....you say "safeword...another says "open communication"  ......tomato....tomahto...
That being said, although i generally have safewords in place, i've never used them. 

On  a lighter note....considering my single Domless state,  i'd like to order a McDom with extra pickle and a side of open communication.   (heh...sorry couldn't resist....even if i only amuse myself)

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 140
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