RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals?

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 9:13:44 AM)
mam, I started the Kain-tuck thingee, but not the white hood stuff. Was just making fun of them making fun. All in good fun. [:D] I don't mind being seen in some stereotypical ways. I do like to make fun of them, though. FirmKY

mnottertail -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 10:09:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mam First the reference of the "white hood", and now this...."Kain-tuck"? It's spelled Kentucky. And just to let you know, we've already paid for "Reconstruction", get over it yankee. mam Kain-tuck has been handled, reconstruction was never on the table, but the white hood thing is a misnomer......... I asked for a full set of KKK garments, not just the hood.......It has a very violently squicky quality in some people that an ol' mindphucker like me has just got to admire, so................. If anything I said offends you, too bad........if it is teasing, too good. Ron

popeye1250 -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 10:11:13 AM)
Cloudboy, the U. of Calif Berkely and Stanford? Gee,...no bias there! Those Moonbats are to the left of that nut Barbara Streisand.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 10:23:20 AM)
quote: John T. Jost, Stanford University Arie W. Kruglanski, University of Md. College Park Jack Glaser University of California, Berkeley Frank J. Sulloway, University of California, Berkeley Basically the findings are about how conservatives don't react well to facts or information that might threaten their own pre-existing belief systems. Examples include: mixed marriage, Sabbath observance, the theory of evolution, modern art, royalty, White superiority, socialism, women judges, apartheid, birth control, suicide, jazz music, divorce. Those sources are as valid as Newt Gingrich's opinion on the methodology of liberal thinking, or Billy Graham's regarding evolutionists. My one and only question regarding liberal doctrine is provide an example of one liberal program that worked or works? "Worked" means, a program was initiated, implemented, and after a time, not needed anymore because the problem was solved. However, I know the liberal side won't agree with that definition. If the liberals built a bridge that they promised would improve everyones commute, but it turns out it only supported bicycles but not cars, they'd still see it as a success and charge a tax on the cars and trucks who didn't use it.

Amaros -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 10:38:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: John T. Jost, Stanford University Arie W. Kruglanski, University of Md. College Park Jack Glaser University of California, Berkeley Frank J. Sulloway, University of California, Berkeley Basically the findings are about how conservatives don't react well to facts or information that might threaten their own pre-existing belief systems. Examples include: mixed marriage, Sabbath observance, the theory of evolution, modern art, royalty, White superiority, socialism, women judges, apartheid, birth control, suicide, jazz music, divorce. Those sources are as valid as Newt Gingrich's opinion on the methodology of liberal thinking, or Billy Graham's regarding evolutionists. My one and only question regarding liberal doctrine is provide an example of one liberal program that worked or works? "Worked" means, a program was initiated, implemented, and after a time, not needed anymore because the problem was solved. However, I know the liberal side won't agree with that definition. If the liberals built a bridge that they promised would improve everyones commute, but it turns out it only supported bicycles but not cars, they'd still see it as a success and charge a tax on the cars and trucks who didn't use it. WWII.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 11:10:02 AM)
quote: WWII. WWII was a liberal program? And if it "worked" how do you explain Korea or the "Cold War"?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 11:17:40 AM)
cloudboy, I guess you didn't read the "Truth Hurts ... " thread where we discussed the relative utility (or lack thereof) of most social sciences, didja? [:)] You could sum it up in one word: alchemy. Some points: 1. I've looked at a fair number of political orientation vs psychology explanations over the years, and so very, very much of it is less than convincing. How you define things, and your own values play a not-insubstantial part in the results that you achieve. I'm reviewing this study (thank you for the link, btw), and so far it appears to be a meta-study. A meta-study is simply a "study of studies". In other words, a grouping of a bunch of other studies to see if you can arrrive at any conclusions. No original research. Just based on that, and the fact that there are major problems (acknowledged) with many studies done in the past, I wouldn't get my hopes up that this study actually "proves" much of anything. In particular, it looks like one of the studies that they used, that measured "authoritarianism" is a well known study of "conservatism" in which they made the conclusion that authoritarianism and conservatism was strongly related, but their definition of authoritarianism, and the sample that they used to determine that link was kinda special. From memory, they basically used some people who were less than fully functional in society, or on the fringes and then held them up as the ideal of "conservatives". It wasn't very convincing then, and isn't very convincing now. I'll try to locate and source that material if I have time, and can locate it. I've already found some interesting quotes, but want to finish the entire thing before I directly respond 2. Why is it that it is the less educated, the less financially successful a person is, the more likely they are to be "Democratic"? And the more successful and educated a person is, the more likely they are to be Republican? Assuming that you are representing Democrats as liberal, and Republican as conservative, wouldn't it make more sense for it to be the other way around? 3. I believe that the entire "liberal" versus "conservative" isn't what it is made out to be, and, in effect the roles of the two schools of thought have flipped over the last ... oh .... 40 to 100 years. In other words, a person who claims to be a conservative today, if you placed him in the world 60 years ago, would have been considered a "liberal", and a "liberal" today would much more likely be considered a royalists, or a conservative then. Deserves an entire thread to itself, but interesting concept. FirmKY

BitaTruble -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 12:09:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: John T. Jost, Stanford University Arie W. Kruglanski, University of Md. College Park Jack Glaser University of California, Berkeley Frank J. Sulloway, University of California, Berkeley Basically the findings are about how conservatives don't react well to facts or information that might threaten their own pre-existing belief systems. Examples include: mixed marriage, Sabbath observance, the theory of evolution, modern art, royalty, White superiority, socialism, women judges, apartheid, birth control, suicide, jazz music, divorce. Those sources are as valid as Newt Gingrich's opinion on the methodology of liberal thinking, or Billy Graham's regarding evolutionists. My one and only question regarding liberal doctrine is provide an example of one liberal program that worked or works? "Worked" means, a program was initiated, implemented, and after a time, not needed anymore because the problem was solved. However, I know the liberal side won't agree with that definition. If the liberals built a bridge that they promised would improve everyones commute, but it turns out it only supported bicycles but not cars, they'd still see it as a success and charge a tax on the cars and trucks who didn't use it. Will you count Women's Suffrage? That one worked to gain us the vote and is no longer needed. Celeste

cloudboy -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 12:42:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Those sources are as valid as Newt Gingrich's opinion on the methodology of liberal thinking, or Billy Graham's regarding evolutionists. My one and only question regarding liberal doctrine is provide an example of one liberal program that worked or works? "Worked" means, a program was initiated, implemented, and after a time, not needed anymore because the problem was solved. However, I know the liberal side won't agree with that definition. If the liberals built a bridge that they promised would improve everyones commute, but it turns out it only supported bicycles but not cars, they'd still see it as a success and charge a tax on the cars and trucks who didn't use it. The findings were in the field of psychology. Its about the political conservative mindset and personality. The formula does help explain Jim West's behavior, and the conservative attacks on gay marriage, war protestors, contraception, and the like. It also really helps explain the Bush administration's public stance on the IRAQ war. My original point was that a happy conservative might be in denial about: a. His own unhappiness b. Things that would make him unhappy

happypervert -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 12:48:50 PM)
quote: My one and only question regarding liberal doctrine is provide an example of one liberal program that worked or works? "Worked" means, a program was initiated, implemented, and after a time, not needed anymore because the problem was solved. This question implies that you prefer conservative doctrine because they actually have a long list of programs that worked according to your definition. Perhaps you'd care to share. Oh, and I think civil rights would be a good example of lilberal doctrine that has worked . . . there are plenty of folks arguing that things like affirmative action are no longer needed.

cloudboy -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 12:57:01 PM)
I'm really not qualified to debate the truth of the study, but it provides a good paradigm for analysis which seems to fit rather seemlessly onto poltical conservatives in the United States. Clearly Reagan and now Bush were never big on facts. Clearly the IRAQ war was prosecuted on false terms, and our leadership didn't show a proper grasp of what they were doing. Why we see such behaviors can be explained somewhat by the study's hypothesis. quote: 2. Why is it that it is the less educated, the less financially successful a person is, the more likely they are to be "Democratic"? And the more successful and educated a person is, the more likely they are to be Republican? Assuming that you are representing Democrats as liberal, and Republican as conservative, wouldn't it make more sense for it to be the other way around? I don't know if this is true, but the class divide between Democrats and Republicans most likely centers on taxes. Since Reagan, though, political conservatism in the US has been completely divorced from fiscal conservatism. Now, there is almost no connection between the two in today's Republican party. (From my reading the study doesn't even attempt to address fiscal conservatism at all.) As for me, the great Republican - Democratic divide is between rural and urban Americans.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 1:03:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy As for me, the great Republican - Democratic divide is between rural and urban Americans. I agree with you on this. Hmmm ... I wonder if the happiness study controlled for the urban/rural factor? FirmKY

thetammyjo -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 1:12:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY 2. Why is it that it is the less educated, the less financially successful a person is, the more likely they are to be "Democratic"? And the more successful and educated a person is, the more likely they are to be Republican? Assuming that you are representing Democrats as liberal, and Republican as conservative, wouldn't it make more sense for it to be the other way around? Actually I don't know very many Republicans who are college graduates. I think the process of college sort of teaching to think and as long as the neo-cons are in charge of the Republican party, this isn't what they want. Of the business owners I know the split is fairly even between Republicans and Democrats and frankly a lot of them are Libertarians. I've met a lot of under-educated and very poor people who are swayed by rhetoric to either side. In my classes I can almost pick out the political affliations of my students by their lack of skills in writing and reading plus their racial/ethnic background. I know when I see these students later on that if they have been growing intellectually and improving their life skills, they tend to become more liberal over time. The titles of Liberal or Conservative do not necessarily mean now what they meant in the 17th and 18th centuries when those political philosophies were formed. The United States was formed under Liberal ideals but now Conservatives claim that they understand the true meaning of those who created the foundations of the USA.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 1:35:59 PM)
quote: The findings were in the field of psychology. Its about the political conservative mindset and personality. The formula does help explain Jim West's behavior, and the conservative attacks on gay marriage, war protesters, contraception, and the like. It also really helps explain the Bush administration's public stance on the IRAQ war. My original point was that a happy conservative might be in denial about: a. His own unhappiness b. Things that would make him unhappy cloudboy, Fair enough. If I were assigning blame to the Republican losses, its directly attributed to the mistaken belief that issues such as gay marriage, contraception, and even war protests are motivating factors for people to vote Republican. I think many people who voted Republican in the past were tired and pissed off about being put in the same category as Pat Robinson. The Iraq war was the last straw, and it presented an opportunity to make a statement. I was happy to see so many took advantage of it. I voted against each and every incumbent, but the fact that in general a "no-confidence" vote was heard was a very good result. Going issue by issue, I know I would be liberal on issues such as, privacy, abortion censorship, decriminalization of drugs, legalized brothels. I'm conservative on taxes, government involvement in business, and environmental issues. I'm also neutral on issues such as gun control. I can't figure out if my position regarding illegal immigrants in conservative or liberal. Leaders of both parties, with both conservative and liberal identities seem to think that adding 10 Million known law breakers as citizens is a good thing. I still can't figure that out. Maybe the conservative are trying to protect the corporations exploiting the illegals, and the liberals are thinking exploitation by corporations is better than the exploitation of the government and poverty in the country of origin? As a side bar to this issue, how cute is it the the Catholic Church sees the border fence as "inhuman". Hey Pope G; how about opening the Vatican doors to all the homeless in Italy and the Vatican coffers to the poor of the world? The radical segment of conservatism represents as small a faction of people who vote Republican as the radical liberal positions represent for the Democrats. It was obvious by the candidates they put forward that the Democratic party learned that lesson, perhaps the Republicans will too. The population of the US that votes has become more sophisticated. Maybe more sophisticated for the two parties to reconcile. Bill Clinton, Demi Moore, and $50 Million in cash couldn't convince the 'liberal' state of CA to vote for a tax directed at the big bad oil companies. It was good to see the lie that it would not impact consumer gas prices not be believed. In that same liberal state, Arnold won against the national tide of anti-Republican sentiment. The voting public doesn't seem locked in to party identification labels. I don't think the umbrella label of strict conservative or liberal covers a big crowd of people either. quote: BitaTruble: Will you count Women's Suffrage? That one worked to gain us the vote and is no longer needed. Celeste, That is a GREAT example. What about the equality of women in general? Women are already the majority of college students, and advance degree students. Although the ERA failed as an amendment I'd be hard pressed to think of a purpose of that Constitutional change that would still be necessary. If anything I thought the ERA was to the detriment of woman. Voting is only one right. Has total equality been met? The women suffrage movement focused on many issues. In 2006, would you support the elimination of all laws, such as AA/EEO and even ECOA pointing the woman as inferior or somehow in need of government mandated "more equal" status? BTW - I believe that Woodrow Wilson Democrat, was the President for the 19th Amendment. Wasn't Congress Republican? I believe it was the same group who passed the first "temporary" income tax. But that's by memory using brain cells that if not dead, are dieing from prior abuse. Edited to Add: quote: Oh, and I think civil rights would be a good example of liberal doctrine that has worked . If it did, then there would be no need for any of the programs alluded to in my response to Celeste. Examples of Conservative "works"? The Constitution Smaller Examples Federal Deposit Insurance Interstate Commerce The 'bail out' of Chrysler Motors under Lee Iaccoca. The Panama Canal US Stock Exchange UCC Regulations Lloyds of London US Patent Office

Sinergy -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 1:37:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mam First the reference of the "white hood", and now this...."Kain-tuck"? It's spelled Kentucky. And just to let you know, we've already paid for "Reconstruction", get over it yankee. mam The book I am currently reading (American Theocracy by Kevin Phillips) makes a good case that a lot of the problems currently afflicting the Republican Party, (or if you are a evangelical pentecostal churchgoer, not afflicting it enough) is that the religious elements of the South view the whole civil war and reconstruction in a similar light to the tribulations of Job, etc. Things to be endured as God's teachings to his Chosen People. Now these elements have a controlling stake in the Republican party. It is an interesting connection, dovetailing nicely with the historical precedents where societies in decline tend to sprout fundamentalist fanatical religious sects that generally have end of an epoch types of zealotry. At the moment, our civilization planet-wide is perceived by many to be in decline because of all the things which Conservative nay-sayers pontificate are not happening, like global warming, oil supplies declining, decline of natural resources, etc. Another interesting tie-in is that the more literalist zealots point to certain passages in the Bible which state essentially that the World is our oyster and we should use it as we see fit. This is taken to mean that we can ruthlessly exploit the place, turn it into a smoking wreck, etc., because the only thing that matters is what happens after we die. I find the whole thing rather scary, but then I grew up being a Boy Scout and member of the Sierra Club, and I perceive it is my duty to leave the planet and place better than it was when I got here. The mental process which some seem to have that they should strip mine it to make Hondas just boggles the imagination. Just me, etc. Sinergy

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 1:38:23 PM)
This is my personal observation on why some are conservative, some liberal, and the resulting difference in happiness. Here is what I observe, I'm fairly political and such, I'm certain I've had a political discussion with every person I've had any type of friendly or even long-term work relationship. It's just interesting to me how others think. I've noticed people who feel they are getting fucked over and can't overcome the obstacles set in place by the elite are more liberal. Or people that imagine that some exist in situations in US that would be impossible to overcome. I've noticed people who feel they can one day be the "elite" class are more conservative. Or imagine that everyone can overcome the obstacles set before them in life. (I didn't say currently elite, but feel they could become) It's simple why this would lead to a feeling of unhappiness, if one feels trapped by powers beyond their control. Anyone would be less happy. It's all a matter of perception really. And like most things in the world become self-fulling prophecies. The liberals say the conservatives are in denial, because the conservatives don't accept the liberal premise. The conservative say the liberals are lazy, or uneducated, because the liberals don't accept the conservative premise. Whether one group is in denial or the other, is simply based on your personal perception. There are no facts here merely personal experience, and opinion in dealings with the world. And also it really depends on who you take as an example of conservative or liberal in these discussions. If bush is the example of a conservative, then I'm not a conservative. If the definition of conservative is what I gave earlier I'd say I'm 70 percent in agreement of what conservatives stand for and liberal in the other 30 percent. Mostly that 30 percent is based on social issues. So, I guess, I'm 70 percent happy and 30 percent unhappy. About right really.

Sinergy -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 2:12:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Whether one group is in denial or the other, is simply based on your personal perception. There are no facts here merely personal experience, and opinion in dealings with the world. I have issues with this comment about opinion. I cannot think of one reputable peer-reviewed scientist who disagrees with the idea of global warming. Even those viewing the dendrochronological record going back over a thousand years have proven that the majority of hottest years in the past millenia have occurred in the last 100 years. I can think of any number of non peer-reviewed scientific organizations who have published a plethora of papers stating "we need to study it more before we do anything. http://www.net.org/proactive/newsroom/release.vtml?id=17105 The quick melting of the polar ice cap is another example. It is not an opinion that all that ice is melting. You can view it shrinking from satellite. http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/1023esuice.html We are experiencing trends of amphibia die off, red tide blooms, invasive species, shrinking ozone hole, massive deterioration of air quality in Asia, environmental degradation, etc. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/08/000811062012.htm http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0160-8347(198712)10%3A4%3C284%3ARAPBTB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T http://www.discover.com/issues/may-05/cover/ http://www.ias.ac.in/resonance/Dec2002/Dec2002p71-75.html http://www.agu.org/meetings/sm06/sm06-sessions/sm06_GC41A.html http://www.isse.ucar.edu/ASR99/resources.html I am not sure which part of these qualifies as "opinion." The studies are out there. My experience is that people dont want to spend any time doing the research to come up with the evidence to support their beliefs. While the studies which discount most of these are published by non-scientists and found in things like wikipedia and slashdot.org. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 2:17:28 PM)
I don't recall global warming being a principle of conservatism.

Sinergy -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 2:36:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I don't recall global warming being a principle of conservatism. Perhaps I did not speak my mind correctly. Global warming is not a sign of conservatism. The argument over what causes it seems to be an argument between scientists who research the issue and deal in empirical analysis and studies, and conservatives who tend to inarticulately try to claim it is not really happening and the studies are flawed. I tend to not have much respect for a person that claims somebody else is wrong, but then refuses to put up with the empirical evidence to prove why that person is wrong. It seems so grade school to me. Sinergy

popeye1250 -> RE: Why are conservatives happier than liberals? (11/15/2006 2:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Those sources are as valid as Newt Gingrich's opinion on the methodology of liberal thinking, or Billy Graham's regarding evolutionists. My one and only question regarding liberal doctrine is provide an example of one liberal program that worked or works? "Worked" means, a program was initiated, implemented, and after a time, not needed anymore because the problem was solved. However, I know the liberal side won't agree with that definition. If the liberals built a bridge that they promised would improve everyones commute, but it turns out it only supported bicycles but not cars, they'd still see it as a success and charge a tax on the cars and trucks who didn't use it. The findings were in the field of psychology. Its about the political conservative mindset and personality. The formula does help explain Jim West's behavior, and the conservative attacks on gay marriage, war protestors, contraception, and the like. It also really helps explain the Bush administration's public stance on the IRAQ war. My original point was that a happy conservative might be in denial about: a. His own unhappiness b. Things that would make him unhappy Cloudboy, one thing wrong with that, most people don't consider Bush to be a "conservative." I certainly don't. (I'm an Independant) And most real conservatives don't either. Personally, I think Bush is just a schill for Big Business. Look at all the things he likes that are exclusively good for big business. Needtouse, "Global Warming" is a "U.N." money scam. Cofi Anan was on the news tonight lecturing the U.S. about it again, meanwhile he does nothing about Darfur! No money there for him and his "Bag Man" lackey son like there is in pushing "Global-Warming."

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