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Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 9:59:19 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

In a momentous move, New York City is about to revolutionize its approach to gender by "separating anatomy from what it means to be a man or a woman," according to the New York Times.
Gender, essentially, will become personal choice as New York's Board of Health will allow people to alter the sex on their birth certificate even if they have not had sex-reassignment surgery. Source: http://www.gay.com/news/election/article.html?2006/11/08/3

How GREAT is this! Think of the opportunities this legislation provides as precedent. All white rappers from New York can now go and change their birth certificates to identify themselves as black. Any black person believing his identification as black on an job application is being used against him can change himself to white. White middle aged men, can redeclare themselves Hispanic or female to qualify for government minority programs and business grants.

The opportunity to blame how miserable you are due to a happenstance of birth will be eliminated. How you feel is how you are; factual, reality based, visual evidence be damned! No longer will a person's birth records hold them back from accomplishing anything. What a great day!

It's only starting in New York City, but an idea as great is bound to grow like a California wild fire during a Santa Ana.

When I have the opportunity I'm redoing myself as female and coming out of the closet as a strict butch lesbian Domme seeking monetary tribute. I better go start working on my new profile...

Post #: 1

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 10:03:33 AM

Arpig

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From: Increasingly further from reality
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Reality has less and less to do with reality these days it seems...

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 10:42:50 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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I always thought gender WAS a personal choice. Biological sex on the other hand tends to be pretty set for the great majority.

And race IS a pretty fluid construct. The problem is we've had so many centuries of prejudice and discrimination based on such a stupid concept as "race" that we can't shake ourselves from its classification.

As masculine as I am in many respects, I've always identified as a female and would choose to continue to identify as such.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 3

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 10:48:15 AM

LaTigresse

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Oh good grief what next?!?!

As much as I love wearing my jeans and sneakers, and love loving women........I love being a woman so I will stick with female.

As far as race, I can proclaim to be anything I want but I don't think I will be fooling anyone.

_____________________________

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 4

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 12:03:03 PM

MasterKalif

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this is crazy....the city of New York should worry about education in the ghetto areas, should worry about poverty and homeless in the streets....this is just BS...

I think people are too holed up on race...the US should make an effort to just say we are "American" thats it...anything else is secondary.

LuckyAlbatross...I disagree with your statement, how can you "choose" your gender? If you are born a man, you are a man, and if you are born a woman, you are a woman...while some may prefer a sex change and that would fall under a "personal choice" (and no doubt it is), this does not mean the people that underwent those sex change operations are now biologically their opposites.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 5

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 12:06:45 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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can I be a native american female. That would be great. I want to be one that has a reservation I can set up a business, to avoid taxes, and the female part will help with grants. I also want a disability, to get more government grants. And a veteran to they get a good discount on shipping from fedex, and VA benefits, along with I think Disabled Native American Female Veteran owned business about is as perfect as you can get in receiving every possible business benefit the government provides. With all those grants, I shouldn't have to do anything and do well.

Seriously though, I think this is brilliant when you think about it. If destroying biases based on race, sex, or gender didn't work. Why not destroy those biases by making it impossible to derive any meaning from the terms. They lose their power when anyone can select any label they want.

Pretty slick, if that's the end game.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 6

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 12:10:21 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif
LuckyAlbatross...I disagree with your statement, how can you "choose" your gender? If you are born a man, you are a man, and if you are born a woman, you are a woman...while some may prefer a sex change and that would fall under a "personal choice" (and no doubt it is), this does not mean the people that underwent those sex change operations are now biologically their opposites.

You don't seem to realize that one's "gender" is not the same as one's "sex." While I don't know that we "choose" our gender any more than we "choose" our sexual orientation, it's not at all the same as biological sex traits and is something that only the person themselves can identify themselves as.

Gender is a social/personal construct, biological sex is a genetic footprint.

A person may be born a specific biological sex of female, and yet identify with a gender orientation of "male."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterKalif)

Post #: 7

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 12:10:40 PM

mnottertail

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I will be reborn as myself all the way around, save:

a little more hair, and a little less dick, so that neither on or the other is found harmful to the girls.

Ron

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(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 8

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 12:13:40 PM

slavejali

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I think this is so ridiculous.

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Post #: 9

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 12:17:12 PM

saskslave

Posts: 69
Joined: 10/13/2006
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La Tigresse:

quote:

Oh good grief what next?!?!

Exactly what I was going to say.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 10

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 12:34:18 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Seriously though, I think this is brilliant when you think about it. If destroying biases based on race, sex, or gender didn't work. Why not destroy those biases by making it impossible to derive any meaning from the terms. They lose their power when anyone can select any label they want..

NTUY,
I'm happy you brought this up. This is exactly the point I was hoping would be made. All reference and questions concerning race, sex, marital status, age, gender (since gender/sex are distinct) should be eliminated. If you can do the job, qualify for the grant, or have grades to support entry why should any of the other criteria come into play? Without that information on the application there is no chance of prejudice on the part of the decision making power.

We'll have to figure out some way around the personal interview aspect (blindfolds?), but as a first level screening process the only way to insure no prejudice is to eliminate the disclosure of potentially prejudicial information.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 11

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 2:15:35 PM

orfunboi

Posts: 1223
Joined: 10/22/2005
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i didn't see anything that mentioned race, only gender. i can understand why this would be good for someone who is ftm or mtf, to be able to change their id, without having to wait and have surgery. There are some who can't afford it, or are afraid of the risks involved. It will be interesting to see if and how the media handles it.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 12

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 6:04:35 PM

trannysub007

Posts: 105
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

this is crazy....the city of New York should worry about education in the ghetto areas, should worry about poverty and homeless in the streets....this is just BS...

LuckyAlbatross...I disagree with your statement, how can you "choose" your gender? If you are born a man, you are a man, and if you are born a woman, you are a woman...while some may prefer a sex change and that would fall under a "personal choice" (and no doubt it is), this does not mean the people that underwent those sex change operations are now biologically their opposites.

MasterKalif - Biological gender is assigned a couple days/weeks after conception. Gender identity is assigned at conception. If there is not enough of the identifying hormone available when the secondary sex cells are differentiating, or too much of the non-identifying hormone, the biological gender will not be the same as the identifying gender. This person will be gender dysphoric, or transsexual/transgendered, and very possibly live many years feeling depressed, suicidal, and alone. It's not a personal choice, any more than sexual orientation is.
If you don't live it, don't judge it. You only present yourself as ignorant, stupid or transphobic. Three things most intelligent people do not want to be.

(in reply to MasterKalif)

Post #: 13

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 7:06:47 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

You don't seem to realize that one's "gender" is not the same as one's "sex."

Really? I think it is you that doesn't seem to realize that one's "gender" is precidely the same thing as one's "sex". Kindly note the 2nd definition
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source

gen‧der1 /ˈdʒɛn

dər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jen-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.Grammar. a.(in many languages) a set of classes that together include all nouns, membership in a particular class being shown by the form of the noun itself or by the form or choice of words that modify, replace, or otherwise refer to the noun, as, in English, the choice of he to replace the man, of she to replace the woman, of it to replace the table, of it or she to replace the ship. The number of genders in different languages varies from 2 to more than 20; often the classification correlates in part with sex or animateness. The most familiar sets of genders are of three classes (as masculine, feminine, and neuter in Latin and German) or of two (as common and neuter in Dutch, or masculine and feminine in French and Spanish). b.one class of such a set. c.such classes or sets collectively or in general. d.membership of a word or grammatical form, or an inflectional form showing membership, in such a class. 2.sex: the feminine gender. 3.Archaic. kind, sort, or class.
Pretty clear to me.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 14

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 7:45:15 PM

trannysub007

Posts: 105
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

You don't seem to realize that one's "gender" is not the same as one's "sex."

Really? I think it is you that doesn't seem to realize that one's "gender" is precidely the same thing as one's "sex".

Gender Assignment - same as biological gender or 'sex'.

Gender Identity - how an individual sees him/herself

Gender Presentation - how others see him/her

We all have these 3 gender definitions. When all three are the same for an individual, lucky for that person. Not all people have that luxury.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 15

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 7:55:05 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Seriously though, I think this is brilliant when you think about it. If destroying biases based on race, sex, or gender didn't work. Why not destroy those biases by making it impossible to derive any meaning from the terms. They lose their power when anyone can select any label they want..

NTUY,
I'm happy you brought this up. This is exactly the point I was hoping would be made. All reference and questions concerning race, sex, marital status, age, gender (since gender/sex are distinct) should be eliminated. If you can do the job, qualify for the grant, or have grades to support entry why should any of the other criteria come into play? Without that information on the application there is no chance of prejudice on the part of the decision making power.

We'll have to figure out some way around the personal interview aspect (blindfolds?), but as a first level screening process the only way to insure no prejudice is to eliminate the disclosure of potentially prejudicial information.

I guess we can throw out affirmative action now. What will the NAACP do?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 16

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 8:03:50 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

You people are misreading this. No one ever said that New York City is allowing people to change their gender, which might make some sense. They're allowing people to change their legal sex--which makes no sense at all!

Now sex and gender are NOT the same thing (sex is assigned by biology, gender by culture), but the only thing that a birth certificate can record is sex. You don't come out of the womb with a gender. Maybe this was a well-intentioned move, but it's pretty ignorant.

quote:

In a momentous move, New York City is about to revolutionize its approach to gender by "separating anatomy from what it means to be a man or a woman," according to the New York Times.
Gender, essentially, will become personal choice as New York's Board of Health will allow people to alter the sex on their birth certificate even if they have not had sex-reassignment surgery. Source: http://www.gay.com/news/election/article.html?2006/11/08/3

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 17

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 8:26:37 PM

Arpig

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From: Increasingly further from reality
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trannysub...the words are synonyms. They mean exactly the same thing in the context of human sexuality.

Gender Assignment - same as biological gender or 'sex'. - same as sexual assignment

Gender Identity - how an individual sees him/herself - same as sexual identity

Gender Presentation - how others see him/her - same as sexual presentation.

You do not have 3 different definitions of gender, what you have is three different uses of the word, and in each case the word gender means sex in the sense of male or female. Therefore, while the phrase Gender Identity means how a person sees himself or herself, the word gender in that phrase means the same thing as sex.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to trannysub007)

Post #: 18

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/14/2006 10:21:07 PM

MasterKalif

Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: trannysub007
MasterKalif - Biological gender is assigned a couple days/weeks after conception. Gender identity is assigned at conception. If there is not enough of the identifying hormone available when the secondary sex cells are differentiating, or too much of the non-identifying hormone, the biological gender will not be the same as the identifying gender. This person will be gender dysphoric, or transsexual/transgendered, and very possibly live many years feeling depressed, suicidal, and alone. It's not a personal choice, any more than sexual orientation is.
If you don't live it, don't judge it. You only present yourself as ignorant, stupid or transphobic. Three things most intelligent people do not want to be.

trannysub007.....to me gender and sex are the same....while I understand what you are saying, I don't see where I seem "judging" in my previous message/statement. I do not think I am ignorant, stupid, or transphobic for having the mild opinion I professed before....if you can't handle a differing opinion, then I don't see why you want to post here....what you are doing is silly childish labelling on a perceive "attack" or on a perceived idea that I am "judging". As for your definition of "intelligent" I simply do not care, as it is something very relative and subjective to each individual. Rather than personal name calling, perhaps you could explain to us from your perspective as why you agree or disagree with the original statement.

(in reply to trannysub007)

Post #: 19

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/15/2006 12:03:52 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

trannysub...the words are synonyms. They mean exactly the same thing in the context of human sexuality.

Gender Assignment - same as biological gender or 'sex'. - same as sexual assignment

Gender Identity - how an individual sees him/herself - same as sexual identity

Gender Presentation - how others see him/her - same as sexual presentation.

You do not have 3 different definitions of gender, what you have is three different uses of the word, and in each case the word gender means sex in the sense of male or female. Therefore, while the phrase Gender Identity means how a person sees himself or herself, the word gender in that phrase means the same thing as sex.

I'm led to understand that the word 'gender' became common usage through the politically correct agenda. I can't say I've seen the word used on any official document I've ever had to fill in, its always been 'sex'.

Still, it seems a little like looking at reality through smoke and mirrors to me. The problem with this sort of blurring of reality is that you never know what is the commonly accepted reality until you cross paths with the law when strict definitions of words are used and you realise you are not what you want to be but what the authorities tell you you are. If you have a penis your a man, if you have a vagina your a woman.

I couldn't possibly have raped her, I'm a female.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 20

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