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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 6:41:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I guess I just find it interesting that any of this would matter to anyone other than the person wishing to make the change. I guaranteed if Kenny, the old farmer next door wants to have surgery, take hormones and change his birth certificate from male to female......it's not gonna matter one whit to me.


I would have thought it does. Records are used by governments to predict services such as healthcare. A man born as woman has a much bigger chance of needing a hysterectomy than a man born as a man and a woman born as a man as a much bigger chance of needing treatment for prostate cancer than a woman born as a woman.

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 6:48:10 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Some of the consequences of not allowing the birth certificate to be changed;

1) The most serious, but least likely - prison/custody situations. The police and prisons allocate accomodation according to sex as recorded on the birth certificate. Thus one could find oneself in a male prison, and very popular indeed.
2) In work and in life generally, some bright spark will at some point discover that the person is trans and out them, leading to abuse, harassment and violence, even murder. Employment records, certainly in the UK, record sex as per birth certificate.
3) In marriage, we have the situation, that the person is still classed as male according to the birth certificate. Thus they may not marry another male, but are free to marry a woman in a lesbian relationship as an actual legal marriage (rather than a partnership or whatever name is used for homosexual marriages). Indeed, one of the reasons why certificates have to be changed now, is the move towards allowing homosexual marriages (in all but name) - this has opened the entire can of worms over sex, gender and sexuality which is forcing action on transgender identity.
4) Insurance matters; it may well be the case that my driving insurance is null and void at present, as although my license and all other documentation is as Ms, according to my birth certificate I am a Mr. Insurance companies being as they are, they would likely refuse pay out, having not been informed of the full facts - but of course I'm not about to tell them that as its private and personal. Equally, employer's insurance etc is all similarly affected.

There are many more consequences, but I cant think of them all right now. In short, its not intended so much to "make a small segment of society feel good" - its necessary to their rights as people. Thats if one feels that they are still people, of course.

E



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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 6:53:07 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I guess I just find it interesting that any of this would matter to anyone other than the person wishing to make the change. I guaranteed if Kenny, the old farmer next door wants to have surgery, take hormones and change his birth certificate from male to female......it's not gonna matter one whit to me.


I would have thought it does. Records are used by governments to predict services such as healthcare. A man born as woman has a much bigger chance of needing a hysterectomy than a man born as a man and a woman born as a man as a much bigger chance of needing treatment for prostate cancer than a woman born as a woman.


As dead on as our government is about it's predictions and services I sincerely doubt that this one change is really going to matter in the big picture of things. I mean, really!


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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 6:55:07 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		LadyE, I completely understand all of those concerns. My point is that I support the choice to make the changes and don't really see why anyone wouldn't.

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 7:24:03 AM   
spankmepink11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


I wonder how many times you get to change it? Like, if you are female going to a Yankee game can you change your sex and bring a certificate so you don't have to wait in line for the woman's bathroom then change it back the next day?


I've often in the past used the mens room when the line for the womens was too long (of course not a venue the size of yankee stadium).  And never needed a certificate  .  Whats really ticklish  is the unisex restroom. I entered one in a hospital...that (thankfully) had a partition curtain it was a one "stall" restroom....i was surprised to see an elderly gentleman finishing his business as i rounded the curtain. After our initial shock/surprise, we both checked the placard outside the door...giggling all the while , to make sure neither of us had strayed to the wrong room.  Apparently it  just didn't occur to him to lock the door.

As to the OP...in context i think if one is transgendered they should be able to be legally considered  the sex/gender that they have become. The parameters described within anothers post made perfect sense to me. 
In regards to the definition of sex vs gender, i tend to be the realistic type and go with the definitions as stated in the dictionaries. 


< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 11/18/2006 7:26:21 AM >

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 7:51:54 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

As dead on as our government is about it's predictions and services I sincerely doubt that this one change is really going to matter in the big picture of things. I mean, really!



You might feel better about your government knowing it is not the only government that is dead from the neck up. The one I have to suffer under doesn't appear to know where it is, why its there and what its supposed to be doing.

Once records have been changed, a precedent has been set and leaves the way open for other groups to change the records for whatever reason and soon enough the point of keeping records would be nullified.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/18/2006 7:52:27 AM >

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 9:26:03 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Now there's the strongest argument I've ever heard.  Transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to declare their new sex because that skews government statistics.

Please.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Records are used by governments to predict services such as healthcare. A man born as woman has a much bigger chance of needing a hysterectomy than a man born as a man and a woman born as a man as a much bigger chance of needing treatment for prostate cancer than a woman born as a woman.

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 10:31:32 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Some of the consequences of not allowing the birth certificate to be changed;

1) The most serious, but least likely - prison/custody situations. The police and prisons allocate accomodation according to sex as recorded on the birth certificate. Thus one could find oneself in a male prison, and very popular indeed.

Wrong, at least in this country. It is not the birth certificate that is used to determine a person's gender for purposes of imprisonment, it is the physical attributes - a pre-op MtF trans is considered a man, and post-op would be considered a woman.

quote:

2) In work and in life generally, some bright spark will at some point discover that the person is trans and out them, leading to abuse, harassment and violence, even murder. Employment records, certainly in the UK, record sex as per birth certificate.

So you advocate falsifying the records to prevent a potential violent situation, one which is already illegal. Ans what possible reason would anybody have for looking up one's birth certificate. Now that I think about it, I have never been asked for my birth certificate when I applied for work, so this "dire consequence" is a bit to hypothetical in my eye to require a law specifically changing the historical record.

quote:

3) In marriage, we have the situation, that the person is still classed as male according to the birth certificate. Thus they may not marry another male, but are free to marry a woman in a lesbian relationship as an actual legal marriage (rather than a partnership or whatever name is used for homosexual marriages). Indeed, one of the reasons why certificates have to be changed now, is the move towards allowing homosexual marriages (in all but name) - this has opened the entire can of worms over sex, gender and sexuality which is forcing action on transgender identity.

Utterly irrelevant. The sex one was born has no bearing on one's ability to marry, at least in Canada it doesn't. In less progressive countries it may make a difference, but marriage isn't anything I consider either desirable or any of the government's business, so I see no reason to make a permanent legal change to alter the historical record just to allow somebody to undergo an ill-advised religious ceremony.
quote:

4) Insurance matters; it may well be the case that my driving insurance is null and void at present, as although my license and all other documentation is as Ms, according to my birth certificate I am a Mr. Insurance companies being as they are, they would likely refuse pay out, having not been informed of the full facts - but of course I'm not about to tell them that as its private and personal. Equally, employer's insurance etc is all similarly affected.

I have yet to be asked to provide a copy of my birth certificate when purchasing car insurance, and since none of my employers have ever seen my birth certificate, what is on it has never entered into my coverage under my employer's insurance program. Again, here you wish to falsify the record merely to avoid having to explain to the insurance company that you have transitioned. If I were the insurance company and you bought insurance as a woman, and hid the fact that you were born biologically male and had had surgery & treatment, then I would void your policy & begin legal procedings for fraud, however if that information was made available to me (as the insurer), then I could make the risk-assesment based on the appropriate actuarial tables, and would therefore not be issuing a policy based of fraudulent information.

quote:

There are many more consequences, but I cant think of them all right now.

I can't think of any of consequence
quote:

In short, its not intended so much to "make a small segment of society feel good" - its necessary to their rights as people.

Sorry, but I fail to see how anybody's rights are infringed by having their birth certificate remain true to the facts.
quote:

Thats if one feels that they are still people, of course. 

Don't be idiotic! Of course they are still people, their status as people has nothing to do with it!


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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 10:53:47 AM   
MstrssPassion


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quote:

It is not the birth certificate that is used to determine a person's gender for purposes of imprisonment, it is the physical attributes - a pre-op MtF trans is considered a man, and post-op would be considered a woman.


Do you realize just how many pre-op transwomen no longer pass as being a man unless you strip them down nude?? This is the case with my partner. She has been living full time as a woman for several years now, already transitioned on the job & has all of her paperwork, including birth certificate to female. The only male identity she still has is a M on her driver's license, in this state they won't change that little M to F until post-op or you go to court to have yourself legally declared as castrated (chemically/medically). If for some reason she was incarcerated she was sent to a male prison since she is pre-op this would be an immediate death sentence for her. I don't have the statistics right at my finger tips but I assure you that there are many of cases where pre-op transwomen have been sent to male prisons/jails & have suffered horrible outcomes because of this.

I do recall two stories... I'll have to look for links of a M2F who was brutally raped, beaten & killed  while locked up & of another who was raped, beaten & later committed suicide because of what happened while incarcerated.

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 11:13:56 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		It never ceases to amaze me, how many people here are prepared to offer opinions on everything, even if they know little or nothing about a matter. Nothing wrong with that - everyone can have an opinion, regardless of what they know.

For instance, I can hold the opinion that all black people and Jews should be exterminated as they are the detritus of the human race. That I formed such an opinion based on little or no knowledge or experience is by the by. Its an opinion, and therefore valid.

The thing is though, someone who does have knowledge and experience of black people and Jews, without doubt has an opinion more valid than that displayed in the previous ignorant example. And we could say with equal conviction, that a black person or a Jewish person likely has an opinion on themselves and their situation and needs, which is far superior to even the most well informed outside observer, and infinitely more valid to someone whose opinion is based on nothing.

E



_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 11:20:04 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

LadyE, I completely understand all of those concerns. My point is that I support the choice to make the changes and don't really see why anyone wouldn't.


Sorry LaT - I's an idiot (must be the estrogen!), and didnt use reply, to the person to whom I was replying, which wasnt you!
E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 11:58:19 AM   
Arpig


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Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		In Canada, people can get a sex-change operation at government expense while in prison, so pre-op transexuals who are in a men's prison are segregated from the general population until their surgery, at which time they are transfered to a women's prison. The reason they are not put in a women's prison to begin with is because the biologically female prisoners complained about having uncastrated transexuals in their prison, and they needed to be segregated there as well.
Placing a pre-op transexual in a women's prison would in no way alter the prejudice they would face, and once the operation has been done they are legally women, and therefore they go to a women's prison, so once again, the entry on the birth certificate is irrelevant.


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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 12:03:15 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Now there's the strongest argument I've ever heard.  Transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to declare their new sex because that skews government statistics.

Please.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Records are used by governments to predict services such as healthcare. A man born as woman has a much bigger chance of needing a hysterectomy than a man born as a man and a woman born as a man as a much bigger chance of needing treatment for prostate cancer than a woman born as a woman.



What about Pat?

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 12:16:56 PM   
subjected2006


Posts: 248
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		I think like any other type of identification document its between you and the Judge.
Say Judge..It says woman on my birth certificate but hey..do I look like a woman to you?
Wanna see ?
Wanna see pics?
Want to see bloodtest results?
Want to watch me shave?
lol
Seriously..we have got to stop making laws that prevent Judges from doing their jobs.
Did you klnow that if you disagree with a Judges decision you still have other ways to be heard?
And yeah..elect smarter Judges.
Get involved in your local government.


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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 1:07:11 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Now there's the strongest argument I've ever heard.  Transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to declare their new sex because that skews government statistics.

Please.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Records are used by governments to predict services such as healthcare. A man born as woman has a much bigger chance of needing a hysterectomy than a man born as a man and a woman born as a man as a much bigger chance of needing treatment for prostate cancer than a woman born as a woman.



I would actually prefer there to be no personal information held by the government on individuals but since that is a pipe dream, it would be far better to have accurate information rather than fiction.

Hmm Though on the other hand, if we can change the info about us at will, it will be as good as having no info on us.

Hmm Until we are falsely acused and land up in court.

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 5:33:41 PM   
trannysub007


Posts: 105
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		Must be nice to live in Canada.
  When you look in the mirror, does what you see match how you feel? If it does, then you have no reason to change any of your documentation. And absolutely no idea what people go through every moment of their lives, before, during and after transition. There are more hate crimes against trans people than there are against people of other groups. What would it matter to you if birth certificates could be changed (and they can in some US states)? Would it change your way of life? Your income? Your housing situation? What you eat for lunch? If not, then why all the negativity? Why be 'idiotic' and wish even more difficulties on us?
   When a birth certificate is changed, all they change is the gender and/or the name. Not the date or place of birth. Why is that such a BFD to you?

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/20/2006 7:48:47 AM   
MstrssPassion


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From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

In Canada, people can get a sex-change operation at government expense while in prison


Well damn, with this info I'm gonna tell all the trans folk here in the states to move to Canada, go on a crime spree & save themselves about 20 thousand dollars.

But seriously... this isn't the case here (one is lucky to have insurance cover the medication & it surely doesn't cover the SRS) & that fact remains that transgendered persons are attacked & killed because of being transgendered. The fact remains that people who are partners, friends, lovers & family members of transgendered people have been attacked & killed because of their association with the transgendered person in their lives.

here is but a small sample: www.rememberingourdead.org

It is a fact that the media shies away from covering the stories about attacks on the trans community... so this is why those of you glued to the tube as a way to be informed about all there is to know about what is going on in the world are not aware of any issues. From what studies have shown & it is hard to be accurate because many families will cover up a person transgendered status when they are attacked &/or killed... but at least one person a month is killed due solely to the fact they are transgendered. The numbers are horrifying as to the numbers of those who commit suicide because of rejections & hopelessness.

The laws have not been able to keep up with the medical advances & since we do live in a WORLD that has transgendered persons living in it & undergoing medical reassignment, the laws need to be modified to fit what is happening now rather than what was going on in the world years ago. Oh hell.... laws can't keep up with this, it is the fact that lawmakers chose to ignore that change is needed.

I speak to people every day of my life & help host a group with my partner twice a week for the transgendered community & one of the primary topics discussed by those who are following the standards of transition is the fact that they have to go through a considerably long period of time in limbo with the identification processes & how this has been a huge problem with employment, insurance & various others aspects of life that people who do not change their gender never give second thought to.

I'll pose this question to the ladies here... ever been married & then divorced? Did you really enjoy the process of just switching your last name to match your husbands & then back to your maiden name? Wow, I sure liked the added expense of replacing my ID, twice... Wow I really like hanging out at the DMV all day, didn't you... & how about getting our social security cards switched back. Now add the expense of having to take time off from work to do all of this.

All of this is TRIVIAL by comparison as to what a transsexual must endure when transitioning. Just the simple name change is costly & the courts won't approve the petition if you so much as forget to cross a t or dot an i... & this is just a name change, many transsexuals go through great expense & long time aggravation after fully transitioning & never get to change their ID to match the gender.

People simply do not consider things that do not directly apply to their lives & because of this compassion is dying in a world.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 11/20/2006 7:53:27 AM >

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/20/2006 8:01:04 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hear hear!

Also the reason I live stealth and the reason I had to start my own business.

I live in one of the worst neighbourhoods in my town. I could get beaten up every day of the week if I wanted, for no better reason than being me; except that no one knows (except my neighbour, who found out through the female chattering classes here - ironic or what!? - though he has no problem and would kill anyone that looked at me the wrong way, so thats not bad I guess!).

Clearly, its me thats the scum and detritus of society, rather than the layabout drunks, druggies, petty criminals and various others that live around me - after all, their sex and gender concur, so they must be great people by default, by comparison to someone like me?

E

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RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/20/2006 9:06:23 AM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

Just the simple name change is costly & the courts won't approve the petition if you so much as forget to cross a t or dot an i... & this is just a name change

Hey, I didn't realise that things were so fucking backwards there, I made the mistake of assuming that the US & the UK were as progressive as Canada. A name change costs at most $135.00 (http://www.cbs.gov.on.ca/MCBS/english/4V2UBE.htm) here, and can be done online (http://www.gov.on.ca/ont/portal/!ut/p/.cmd/cs/.ce/7_0_A/.s/7_0_252/_s.7_0_A/7_0_252/_l/en?docid=053266).
I will concede that in a country where something as simple as a name change can be a legal burden that a court has any say in the matter, that something like this might be considered as rather important. Hopefully you will concede that in a civilised country where things like a name change are simply a matter of a bureaucratic procedure involving adding a reference notation to the Government records, changing one's recorded sex-at-birth is a bit frivolous


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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/20/2006 9:45:00 AM   
trannysub007


Posts: 105
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Just the simple name change is costly & the courts won't approve the petition if you so much as forget to cross a t or dot an i... & this is just a name change

Hey, I didn't realise that things were so fucking backwards there, I made the mistake of assuming that the US & the UK were as progressive as Canada. A name change costs at most $135.00 (http://www.cbs.gov.on.ca/MCBS/english/4V2UBE.htm) here, and can be done online (http://www.gov.on.ca/ont/portal/!ut/p/.cmd/cs/.ce/7_0_A/.s/7_0_252/_s.7_0_A/7_0_252/_l/en?docid=053266).
I will concede that in a country where something as simple as a name change can be a legal burden that a court has any say in the matter, that something like this might be considered as rather important. Hopefully you will concede that in a civilised country where things like a name change are simply a matter of a bureaucratic procedure involving adding a reference notation to the Government records, changing one's recorded sex-at-birth is a bit frivolous



Arpig, i agree with you on this one. It would be quite frivolous to change one's recorded sex-at-birth ... if it was simply for the sake of changing it. But for those of us who's lives are in danger because of the documentation not matching the appearance, it's really important to have it changed.  In New Jersey, if i want to change my name legally, other than in the case of marriage or divorce, i have to apply at the state office, pay my $250, and PUT AN ADVERTISEMENT IN THE LOCAL PAPER OF MY OLD NAME, THE NEW NAME, AND WHY THE CHANGE IS HAPPENING!!!  Friends of mine have gone out of state to change their names. A few states will do it and only charge $100. i will do that also, since i have children and i don't want to put them in any danger simply for being related to me. It will take about a week, and maybe $300 total, including travel, and i won't have to advertise anywhere.  Changing the gender is a bit more complicated, but one of my firends did it within an hour of changing his name, and didnt have to go through surgery. Then again, he has a full beard, so it was easy for him!

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