RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 8:42:15 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

What you don't seem to understand is that sex and gender are not regarded as the same thing by anyone who writes about gender. It doesn't matter what you found in your dictionary. Is the lexicographer who compiled your dictionary a specialist in gender studies? Not likely.

Biology determines your sex, but culture determines your gender. If you habitually assume roles that your CULTURE normally associates with the opposite SEX, then you have a sex-gender conflict. Some people thrive on that; most are miserable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

You are male. your sex is male, your gender is male. Your gender identity (note the two words together) may be female, and you are free to live your life as a female, to have surgery to modify your body's external appearance to match what you are in your mind, but biologically your gender is male.
Mentally, emotionally, etc. your gender may not be male, but that doesn't change the meaning of the words.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 41

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 8:44:08 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

Language is a crude tool and words are really just sound symbols. Sometimes there needs to be more than one symbol to represent something.

However, having looked in both the Oxford and Collins dictionary, it clearly defines gender as sex. I haven't got a Websters, maybe it is different in that.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 42

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 9:22:11 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Gender identity disorder (GID) or transsexualism is defined by strong, persistent feelings of identification with the opposite gender and discomfort with one's own assigned sex. People with GID desire to live as members of the opposite sex and often dress and use mannerisms associated with the other gender.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/genderid.html

Note the distinct usage of "sex" and "gender". Sex as a biological fact, gender as a psychological and cultural distinction between the two permitted sexes (even though there are more than two). If the two words mean the same thing, then there would be no need to use both, yet we do. This is because there is a difference, however nuanced or non existent it might seem to those fortunate enough to have a correlation between their sex and their gender.

I am transsexual - I have a female brain and mind, which has been shown by numerous testing techniques to be the case. If such a significant part of me (in fact, what makes me who I am - what more significant part of me could there be?) is female, then how can it be that I am wholly determined instead by what was between my legs at birth? Such an approach is as ridiculous as that which formerly (and still largely does) determined one's entire identity by skin colour, ignoring the person beneath that skin.

With regard to Websters (or any other leading dictionary) - Could someone who has such a reference, look up the word transsexualism in it, and write the definition here please? I would suspect the definition would have to distinguish gender from sex, simply to convey what transsexualism is, just as gender psychologists do. But then, what do they know?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 43

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 9:25:13 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

trans‧sex‧u‧al /trænsˈsɛk

ʃu

əl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trans-sek-shoo-uh

l] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1.
a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.

2.
a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex. –adjective

3.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of transsexuals.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 44

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 10:49:18 AM

MasterKalif

Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
Status: offline

I disagree Lordandmaster, because I am pretty sure that if "my culture" had tried to raise me as a female, they would have failed...you can't change the thought processes, the wants and needs of a male...

or of a female for that matter...

< Message edited by MasterKalif -- 11/17/2006 10:50:54 AM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 45

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 10:50:27 AM

MasterKalif

Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

You are male. your sex is male, your gender is male. Your gender identity (note the two words together) may be female, and you are free to live your life as a female, to have surgery to modify your body's external appearance to match what you are in your mind, but biologically your gender is male.
Mentally, emotionally, etc. your gender may not be male, but that doesn't change the meaning of the words.

Arpig, with that I can agree with....

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 46

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 10:54:09 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

I disagree Lordandmaster, because I am pretty sure that if "my culture" had tried to raise me as a female, they would have failed...you can't change the thought processes, the wants and needs of a male...

I'd go along with this. Two boys I grew up on the same street with in a macho mining town, turned out gay. If culture and socialisation had any influence on their sexuality, one would assume they would have been hetrosexual but I guess there are so many variables, its impossible to certain.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to MasterKalif)

Post #: 47

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 10:58:06 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Semantics aside, the statute specifies the word "sex". You can debate your gender preferences all you like, but this allows you to change your SEX. Not sexual preference, sex.

Last I checked, sex was determined by physical biological characteristics; except now in New York City. That is why other biological and physical characteristics, such as race, should also come into the discussion.

I wonder how many times you get to change it? Like, if you are female going to a Yankee game can you change your sex and bring a certificate so you don't have to wait in line for the woman's bathroom then change it back the next day?

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 48

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 11:10:53 AM

MistressTruth

Posts: 117
Joined: 2/22/2006
Status: offline

Once again, the rules:

Under the rule being considered by the city’s Board of Health, which is likely to be adopted soon, people born in the city would be able to change the documented sex on their birth certificates by providing affidavits from a doctor and a mental health professional laying out why their patients should be considered members of the opposite sex, and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent.

So you couldn't do something as frivolous as what mercnbeth questioned about.

Transphobia, not so in disguise, seems somewhat abundant on this board. Fabulous.

_____________________________

I've been lookin' for a divine hammer...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 49

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 12:22:01 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Well, that's an assertion, and not a very persuasive one. If you really don't believe it, just ask yourself why the roles assigned to males and females differ so drastically from one culture to the next--and from one epoch to the next. I don't believe that the forces of socialization are strong enough to NEGATE people's individuality, but it's just not plausible to think you'd be the same person, with the same attitudes and gender identity, in any other time and place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

I disagree Lordandmaster, because I am pretty sure that if "my culture" had tried to raise me as a female, they would have failed...you can't change the thought processes, the wants and needs of a male...

or of a female for that matter...

(in reply to MasterKalif)

Post #: 50

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 12:36:20 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

...you can't change the thought processes, the wants and needs of a male...

or of a female for that matter...

How can this be so? By the standards here, I am male, and yet I have female thought processes, wants and needs.

Who changed my thought processes, wants and needs? Someone, somehow must have done so, because my XY chromosomes mean I should have male thought processes, wants and needs. "God makes no mistakes" according to the standard here, so it must be down to human intervention.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to MasterKalif)

Post #: 51

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 12:43:22 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

One can say we are all down to human intervention LE

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 52

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 12:46:38 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressTruth

Once again, the rules:

Under the rule being considered by the city’s Board of Health, which is likely to be adopted soon, people born in the city would be able to change the documented sex on their birth certificates by providing affidavits from a doctor and a mental health professional laying out why their patients should be considered members of the opposite sex, and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent.

So you couldn't do something as frivolous as what mercnbeth questioned about.

Transphobia, not so in disguise, seems somewhat abundant on this board. Fabulous.

Is this all its about? Is this what all the fuss is over? Allowing TS people who have permanently transitioned to have their documents altered?

OMG! What is the world coming to?

Clearly and surely such people should be taken outside the city walls and stoned to death for the affront they have made to God - not accomodated as human beings. Failing the imposition of God's will, perhaps they could be given aversion therapies to cure them of their illness and restore them to health? A few hours of electric shocks should do the job.

And then, once we've dealt with these sick, evil people, we can start on the rest in the same way to bring about the Lord's will and/or improve societal health;
1) Gay and Lesbian detritus
2) Intersex scum
3) Crossdressing garbage
3) BDSM deviants
etc

Here's the news; in Europe, the only countries which dont allow the sex to be amended on official documents for TS people who permanently transition are the likes of Albania, Belarus and other similarly civilised places (and even they may have caught up now).

If this is the way the US thinks, then I have one piece of advice; dont watch the Borat film for laughs; take a notebook and treat it as a documentary.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to MistressTruth)

Post #: 53

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/17/2006 5:25:58 PM

MistressTruth

Posts: 117
Joined: 2/22/2006
Status: offline

lol Right on. :-)

Let's worry about actual problems, like getting the US a decent healthcare system. Jeez.

I think doctors have tried aversion therapy in attempts to "fix" trans folks and GLB's. Somehow I don't think that electric shock therapy would "fix" some BDSM deviants though, some might just keep coming back for more. ;-)

Btw, I looked at the definition of gender and guess what, gender is also an Indonesian musical instrument.

_____________________________

I've been lookin' for a divine hammer...

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 54

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 2:21:08 AM

trannysub007

Posts: 105
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Gads, you still don't get it do you....anyway, have yourself a nice life on your werd little planet where words mean whatever you want them to

my weird little planet is Earth. Where do you live?

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 55

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 5:29:24 AM

FangsNfeet

Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline

So can I go ahead and change my Birth Date so I can retire and collect SS and Medicare? Anyways, how does a piece of paper make you feel after you look in the mirror? You can run, but you can never hide from yourself.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 56

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 5:38:02 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

edited to nothing

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 11/18/2006 5:42:02 AM >

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 57

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 6:03:25 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

So can I go ahead and change my Birth Date so I can retire and collect SS and Medicare? Anyways, how does a piece of paper make you feel after you look in the mirror? You can run, but you can never hide from yourself.

Read the above post by MistressTruth - its about changing the official sex on documentation for people who transition from one gender to the other, permanently. Nothing more.

That piece of paper is very important indeed to someone who transitions like that. It provides them with the final part in the jigsaw to coherence in themselves. It prevents snooping wankers from finding out what they were and using that against them in work, entitlements etc.

NB - if its anything like the Gender Recognition Act in the UK, it is open only to those who have definitely, permanently and verifiably transitioned. You wont be able to just walk in off the street and get this document. Crossdressers wont suddenly be able to be classed as female, etc etc.

And to anyone who thinks transition is something done on a whim, or something which is easy or is likely to be abused to make one's life easier - wake up. This is about the most difficult thing to accomplish successfully, that anyone could ever do. Climbing Everest solo is maybe about on a par.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 58

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 6:04:29 AM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline

quote:

Transphobia, not so in disguise, seems somewhat abundant on this board. Fabulous.

Typical. Start throwing out the accusations of Xphobia when somebody finds something done to make a small segment of society feel good to be ridiculous. I personally don't give a shit what gender you were born, nor what sex you feel you really are. I don't care if you choose to undergo any medical procedures or not, nor do I care if you dress as a man, woman, or as one of the other mythical sexes.
The fact remains that the idea of changing one's birth certificate id dumb. That is a document that records the biological fact of one's birth. You can alter the records all you want, but it doesn't alter the facts any...if you were born with wobbly-danglybits, then you were born with them...however much you may wish otherwise.
Reality is, and fudging the documents that record those facts doesn't change those facts, all that does is make the documents unreliable.

quote:

and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent.

Permanent, right up until somebody decides to challenge that in court...but your honour, I have changed since when I had the record falsified to match my emotional needs...please let me be what I was born.....

The documents recording the physical facts of one's birth and death should do just that, record the physical facts of one's birth & death. If a child is born male, and later in life identifies as female, regardless of how early on that person may have begun identifying as being the opposite sex, the fact is...that child does not identify as male or female...that child is barely cognizant of its existance, nor does an early appearance of "Gender Identity Disorder" in any way alter the physical facts of the child's birth.
What is the point of a birth certificate? To make a factual record of the birth. For whatever reason, it was long ago decided that the physical external sexual characteristics of the child should be recorded. This law now proposes to allow people to go back, and alter the record to reflect what they think (or feel) should have been the facts, but due to an accident of genetics were not. The purpose of the certificate is to record those accidents of genetics....the child was born apparnetly female with 5 fingers on each hand and 5 toes on each foot, and with no disfiguring marks, etc. or perhaps that the child was born Male with a cleft palate, or in a very small number of cases, that the child was born with external sexual characteristics of both genders...the physical facts. It is a historical record, and I am against tampering with those.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to MistressTruth)

Post #: 59

RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice - 11/18/2006 6:27:01 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

I guess I just find it interesting that any of this would matter to anyone other than the person wishing to make the change. I guaranteed if Kenny, the old farmer next door wants to have surgery, take hormones and change his birth certificate from male to female......it's not gonna matter one whit to me.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 60

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109