RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advice wanted

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 7:05:38 PM

empresschaos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: flightinthenight

I want to hear from them whether there's a differnence between male bottoms and male submissives.

Male slaves are involved for what they an give.

Male bottoms are involved for what they can get.

That, Lotus, is an effing SWEET perspective. And succinct. I likey

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Post #: 41

RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 7:10:28 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
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Maybe this is just my view, but its a thought that occured to me recently. Wouldnt there be an inherent problem to male submissives believing all femaes were superior when it came to their interactions in the Vanilla world? Would that make it difficult for them to work in a management position over one or more women? Or what about even in the lifestyle, befriending a femsub who has a Male owner? Could he then not understand her position?
Just some random thoughts, since the OP seems to imply that the FS is not strictly limited to interactions within the lifestyle..

DV

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Post #: 42

RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 7:16:55 PM

LadySeraphina

Posts: 931
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I was going to put in my two cents, but it appears to have been covered thoroughly.

Benji, you're such a cute li'l doggie! *scritches*

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Post #: 43

RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 7:17:31 PM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

What about female submissives, then? Must they believe in male superiority? I think that submissiveness is a frame of mind, and a framework for living; the domme that the sub is submissive to is superior to him not because of her breasts, but because of their relationship. imho, anyway.

Yeah, but a pair of nice gazongas does help, no?

Yours,

benji

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 7:31:01 PM

Morrigel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji
It has nothing to do with which group I choose. I could start using jews as an example. That's not my point. My point is that, in my books, believing someone is better based on how they were born is stupid no matter how you slice it.

It's amazing how things that are incredibly, unbelievably stupid--like say, a corset, or a pair of high heels--can also be sexy to people with the right inclination.

The more people squeal and whine, to be honest, the more amused I become. These threads really bring out the sadist in me. There's something about this terribly aggrieved reaction that just gets funnier and funnier--if only because it has so little basis in any real or imminent injury to any person.

Oooh, the horror! The horror! The very idea does such dreadful harm!

I think the female supremacist movement needs a new slogan. Something like, "Supremacy: it's not just for white males any more!"

--M

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Post #: 45

RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 7:40:29 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel
There's something about this terribly aggrieved reaction that just gets funnier and funnier--if only because it has so little basis in any real or imminent injury to any person.

Oooh, the horror! The horror! The very idea does such dreadful harm!

Nope. It's just annoying, and sometimes mildly amusing. Kind of like being in a truck stop diner eating breakfast and listening to the unwashed guys at the next table talk about white supremacy and how all those damn n*****s should have some sense and let the superior white man boss them around like the good old days on the plantation.

quote:

I think the female supremacist movement needs a new slogan. Something like, "Supremacy: it's not just for white males any more!"

Heh. I kind of like that, but personally I'd rather see us cooperating as a leather community together and not wasting our time and energy arguing over whose way is better.

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Post #: 46

RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 8:27:31 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
I think that's the difference between female dominant being about consent and female supremacy. The first is about consensual relationships between adults who are oriented that way and choose that lifestyle. The second is about claiming that all females are superior to all males, and that everybody should be female dominant/male submissive

I disagree with you even as I know you have been around this a while. I don't see where you get the distinction between a fem dominant being about consent and fem supremacy being about non consensual subjugation... As if it is okay/preferable for all females to be dominant over their men. It seems female supremacists seem to be irritating because everyone erroneously interchanges one word for the other supremacy/superiority.

As I like to keep things simple, I like the dictionary's definition of supreme/supremacy (highest in rank/authority), and in that regard, all females who dominate are being supremacist in that instant.
I've never heard of a sect within this lifestyle that advocates for forceable subjugation of anyone (not even the Goreans). So, if my kink is not your kink, it's all good, but let us not make this about non consensual relationships, because it isn't... It should be plenty obvious that I would be the first to have a problem with that. M

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 10:30:53 PM

AlexAussieSub

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(fast reply)

Benji, DiurnalVampire, Najakcharmer and Lashra seem to be on a similar wavelength to me.

Flightinthenight, I think you are being very rude to Hercuckslave. If you don't want to read his post then scroll down past it.

BlkTallFullfig you say that if you read these comments on a general life forum you would think they were insane. Well if you have a read through Female Supremacy sites out there you will find a lot of people who write that their goal is a world where women are superior to men. No qualifiers. Sort of like making Earth into a reverse Gor. Female Supremacy and Goreanism really do seem to have a lot in common if you switch a few words around.

Anyway I would say that the majority of guys who are into "Female Supremacy" are just husbands bored with their marriages who will usually go no further than the internet, phone sex or maybe a few visits to a pro Domme. Subs that are serious tend to not come out with over the top ideas. Using the Gorean analogy again I know a Sub girl who used to be into Gor and she said 99% of never went further than the net. Look how many Female Supremacist sites have links to phone sex lines.

Going back to the original question, I think that the reason that there are less guys into Female Supremacy on collarme than elsewhere is because there are more guys here who actually real-life players as opposed to internet fantasists.

Maybe there needs to be a seperate forum for Female Supremacists here like for the Goreans.

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/14/2006 10:36:38 PM

AlexAussieSub

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Flightinthenight, I've just read that your profile says that you are actively seeking Dominant Men as well as Dominant Women. I'm curious to hear how this fits in with your belief in Female Supremacy. Are you after an arrangement like the army in which there are women who boss dominant men around who boss you around? If so then why aren't you actively seeking switch men?

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 12:00:43 AM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

BlkTallFullfig you say that if you read these comments on a general life forum you would think they were insane. Well if you have a read through Female Supremacy sites out there you will find a lot of people who write that their goal is a world where women are superior to men. No qualifiers.

I think you and I both know that a large percentage of those sites aren't about anyone dominating anyone except fantasy for cash, which while there is nothing wrong with it, we can hardly hold that up as the standard... And even if we took that type of site as the example, it is still from adults for adults who not only agree/consent to their rhetoric, but actually pay to see it in action, so who am I to condemn it. M

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 1:45:19 AM

AlexAussieSub

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BlkTallFullFig, you don't need to go as far as the"fantasy for cash" stuff. I'm thinking of the likes of Elise Sutton.

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 5:37:31 AM

Morrigel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexAussieSub

BlkTallFullFig, you don't need to go as far as the"fantasy for cash" stuff. I'm thinking of the likes of Elise Sutton.

Sorry, but I learned about Elise Sutton by having newbie male subs send me the links to her material. Elise Sutton's vision of femme supremacy is VERY VERY much about the desires of submissive men. Right down to enforcing the dress code and the ideals of beauty!

I am sorry to invalidate everyone's hysteria, but honestly--the hatred of female supremacy AND the extreme reactions to Gor stuff are just...kinda retarded, in the scheme of things. BDSM has a serious satirical/deconstructing potential which no one is addressing--there's something deeply comic/cosmic about the ability to transform pain into pleasure.

See, my problem with equating femme supremacy with any other form of "supremacy" IN REALITY is this: Najak, when those truck drivers sit around talking about "niggers" and how they should "know their place"--those Morlocks are invoking REAL harm and REAL non-consensual brutality which went on for hundreds of years against millions of people.

Goreans are NOT invoking the real, non-consensual harm which has been done to women by male oppressors, now or in the past. They are NOT novels about clitoridectomy in Northern Africa, suttee in India, or mass rape in Sudan. These people are celebrating the fantasy and the REALITY that many human females can achieve huge sexual pleasure and emotional fulfillment in submission to a strong, attentive man. The rhetoric that ALL women are this way is off-putting to those of us who are not--but it is part of their fantasy. And given the nature of many other people's BDSM fantasies and the power of their insistence that their way and their definitions are "right"? I really am not inclined to throw stones.

And as far as the poster who said Goreans are "internet fantasists" rather than "real-life players"? Sorry, but that's horseshit. One of the strictest, harshest femme dommes I have ever met in my life started out as a Gorean, and there are many men and women living the lifestyle in their own homes on a daily basis. It is a huge turn-on for them. I believe Norman and his wife have this sort of relationship, for that matter...

The same is true of female supremacists and the males who yearn for their dominion and control. Many of these women are living the lifestyle, with men who are rapturously happy about it. Sorry, but this whole issue is just a sign of some very serious double standards. It seems to me that "Your Kink Is Not Ok" messages are heavily weighted against women and men with this fantasy. That is not cool, and you are not proving yourself to be more-enlightened-than-thou or more-tolerant-than-thou with these arguments.

--M

< Message edited by Morrigel -- 11/15/2006 5:38:51 AM >

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 6:45:36 AM

MzTlaz

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Personally I find anyone with 'absolutes' to be a turn off and female supremacists fall into that category. Fortunately in real time I don't find too many spouting supremacy one way or the other...or maybe my radar just doesn't pick them up...automatic defense system...lol!

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 9:32:20 AM

Beatmehrdr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

Are you possibly confusing "submissive to one Owner/Mistress/wife/life partner" with "submissive to everything on the planet with tits"?

That doesn't apply to man-boobs as well, does it? Because that might create some issues, you know.

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 10:09:23 AM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: flightinthenight

I want to hear from them whether there's a differnence between male bottoms and male submissives.

Male slaves are involved for what they an give.

Male bottoms are involved for what they can get.

That, Lotus, is an effing SWEET perspective. And succinct. I likey

Here's another revelation for them: Male slaves know the benefits of a very thankful Mistresse.

They usually end up with what the male bottom is always hoping for.

There is something to be said for commitment and dedication.

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I'm not inflatable.

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 3:43:01 PM

orfunboi

Posts: 1223
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quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

What about female submissives, then? Must they believe in male superiority?

Well, i certainly hope the lesbians don't.....

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 4:51:39 PM

jdtallfem

Posts: 180
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I find Female Supremecy an intereting lifestyle fantasy. I love Elise Sutton's writings I get a lot of subs/slaves who write to me saying they like the lifestyle. Doesn't mean we're going to take over the world, far from it. I don't understand the hysteria from all of these males who are against it on these posts. Do you really think anyone is truly going to take over the world with it? After centuries of female oppression that is still going on in third world countries? What a joke. Let those of us who enjoy our lifestyle live in peace and you live in your peace. Live and let live. Get over it.

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 8:52:44 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
I disagree with you even as I know you have been around this a while. I don't see where you get the distinction between a fem dominant being about consent and fem supremacy being about non consensual subjugation... As if it is okay/preferable for all females to be dominant over their men. It seems female supremacists seem to be irritating because everyone erroneously interchanges one word for the other supremacy/superiority.

While I certainly respect your right to label your kink with any words that work for you personally, I'm concerned that there is already a specific connotation to "supremacy" that does imply non consensual judgementalism based on an accident of birth. So most people are going to hear the term "female supremacy" and automatically think that it is basically the same as "white supremacy", just replacing race with gender.

I can see how you are defining the term to mean consensual femdom relationships, so by your definition "female supremacy" is a perfectly good way to run a relationship or a household. But your definition is probably not the same as the more political and less consensual one that most people think of when they hear that word.

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 9:16:00 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel
Sorry, but I learned about Elise Sutton by having newbie male subs send me the links to her material. Elise Sutton's vision of femme supremacy is VERY VERY much about the desires of submissive men. Right down to enforcing the dress code and the ideals of beauty!

My personal take on Sutton is that she likes pushing male buttons and she knows where those male buttons are, so that's what she advocates doing. So in a way it is all about their desires, since those desires are being used as leverage to serve her ends. Which I am sorry to say do not always seem very honest, ethical or responsible. Just my opinion on this style of femdom, and on Sutton in particular. It's a valid style for folks who like it, and there really are some women who like it.

quote:

Goreans are NOT invoking the real, non-consensual harm which has been done to women by male oppressors, now or in the past.

Actually Gorean philosophy does advocate rape and nonconsensual kidnapping/slavery, and states that women really like being raped. Reality diverges a bit, and I think there are some potential issues and problems there. Fortunately most of the self-professed Goreans I know are quite well behaved and confine their acting out of this philosophy to those who have consented to live this lifestyle.

quote:

Many of these women are living the lifestyle, with men who are rapturously happy about it. Sorry, but this whole issue is just a sign of some very serious double standards. It seems to me that "Your Kink Is Not Ok" messages are heavily weighted against women and men with this fantasy. That is not cool, and you are not proving yourself to be more-enlightened-than-thou or more-tolerant-than-thou with these arguments.

Kudos to anyone who is living in a happy, healthy and sustainable D/s relationship of their orientation, whichever one that is. If I am not personally involved in the relationship, then it is not my business to say which direction the whip should swing. And I get somewhat annoyed at folks who do that. It is quite possible to enjoy and appreciate your own D/s orientation without needing to claim that it is the One True Way that will work for everyone.

By BlkTallFullfig's definition, female supremacy does not have to include One True Way-ism. And that's a perfectly good way to run your relationship or your household. What gets my dander up is when people try to run someone else's relationship or household. Kinky sex is good, political agendas about how other people are supposed to have kinky sex is bad. If your definition of female supremacy does not happen to include those things, then I think it is a good one.

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RE: Male bottoms versus Male submissives- Mistress advi... - 11/15/2006 9:25:40 PM

AlexAussieSub

Posts: 70
Joined: 10/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

I am sorry to invalidate everyone's hysteria, but honestly--the hatred of female supremacy AND the extreme reactions to Gor stuff are just...kinda retarded, in the scheme of things. BDSM has a serious satirical/deconstructing potential which no one is addressing--there's something deeply comic/cosmic about the ability to transform pain into pleasure.

The reason there are these "extreme reactions" to Female Supremacy and Gor is because there are significant amounts of people in both who want to push their lifestyle onto the world in a way that mainstream BDSMer's don't really do. Other people on collarme apart from me have spoken about the Goreans who say everyone is really Gorean, or that we are actually living on planet Gor and people just haven't realised it yet. Elise Sutton et. al. write that their vision of the world is one where women have all the power, and men have none.

This stuff would be comic if it wasn't true, but unfortunately it is. And the problem is it's going to be very easy for vanilla people to read this stuff and think that everyone in BDSM is trying to force their sexuality onto others.

Also what I was saying about "internet fantasists" vs. "real-life players" was about the majority of guys into Female Supremacy. For every guy who's actually doing Female Supremacy stuff offline, how many do you think there are that just call up phone sex lines or send emails to Female Supremacists and then never meet up?

Re: what you said about the "Your Kink Is Not OK" thing. The only kink that's not OK is trying to push your kink onto others who don't share it. Unfortunately there seem to be Female Supremacists and Goreans that are doing this.

Why can't the Female Supremacists just say that there are some men who are born inferior? Why can't the Goreans just say that some people are born Gorean? It's their use of all instead of some that's the issue.

BTW Morrigel I think you're stirring a bit, but like what you said in another thread, differences of opinion are fun