A lot about nothing ... (Full Version)

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slavejali -> A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 4:00:04 PM)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, this has kindacome from other threads as you will well be able to see...and yes I know there are myriads of topics on this...I guess I am just attempting to draw you into my headspace over the following issues and see what you come up with:

Who is responsible if the relationship actually is a dominant/submissive one?

What is the action of submission but to submit?

What is the action of domination but to dominate?

Submitting your authority to another totally does not add up to stupidity in my book. I do it and I'm not stupid. My IQ is quite high on a good day, combine that with the fact my common sense is finely tuned, my intuitive capabilities pretty amazing, my creativeness is awesome and on top of all that I have a pretty good handle on who I am. (I'm also very modest)

There is a difference between playing at submission and actually submitting....there is a difference between how far you are willing to submit or not....and whatever choice people make is absolutely fine in that regard.

Submitting does not equal stupidity, yet time and time again I see it inferred to as that. It's enough to drive a submissive/slave batty if they didn't have a good handle on themselves!

In my opinion, our initial choice of Master/Dominant is where a submissives/slaves major personal responsibility lays. After that decision has been made, the dominant has the responsibility as he/she has the authority. That just seems logical to me.

It's just like at work, if I'm in charge of someone, I take personal responsibility for my actions and commands regarding that person. If they thought I was a bad boss they shouldn't be in my employ in the first place. I'm not going to blame them for acting on my commands, in fact on the contrary, if they do as I say, I’m going to really appreciate it as the work environment will flow smoothly, each person accepting their role. I’m certainly not going to think they are stupid. I am going to fire them if they do not do what I say, they can go look elsewhere for work. This does not make me abusive, it may perhaps make them stupid or incapable of performing the role of their position. Why is this so different for dominant and submissive relationships?

I think topics like these are good for the fact of warning people about who they are choosing to submit to and their personal responsibility to keep themselves safe in the first place......but why go any further than that?...If we do, we are just saying...I'll submit "but"...and that’s fine...but for some of us...we "choose" to experience a deeper interplay and connection through D/s M/s or whatever other bloody slashed letters there are..and what the hell is wrong with that? It in no way equals being stupid.

“I did it cause Master said” – as a slave, I have no problem with that whatsoever, given the fact, I have chosen my Master wisely. I’m not saying there aren’t times when I falter and have to think about something, but I do see those times as a “falter”, they are not empowering my submission in any way but detracting from it.

I dunno, maybe I am conceptualizing too much and the reality is no one can be trusted to actually ever submit wholeheartedly to…..from my perspective, that may be true in a lot of cases for others, but not all, it’s not in mine that’s for sure.

Sure I realise there are some fucked up people that are just playing around with kink....playing out their insecurities etc...thats all cool, to each their own, we are all seeking happiness in one way or another...but to make statements like "Blind obedience is only for doormats"...or  "someone who says 'do everything I say or your gonna pay or be released' is fucked up" or " somene who just obeys is a robot".... I just dont get it....if people want to play it like that..well thats cool too..who am I to judge their relationship and the depth of domination/submission they wish to enter into? I'm certainly not going to make any assumptions about their intelligence..but perhaps may make some assumptions about the people judging those relationships intelligence. (ah did that make sense?)

Warning to any really stupid submissives out there:

What I wrote is about me, I have an incredible Master/Dominant that would see no harm come to me, I trust him completely and it is in that vein I write. There ARE dumb dominants out there so be careful WHO you submit to. I’m just trying to make the point that its really ok to say “I did it because Master said”..its a submissive thing to say and don’t feel it HAS to mean that you are stupid or not intelligent or somehow don’t get it. Blind obedience could be the characteristic of a slave and does NOT have to amount to someone that is a doormat. I so reject generalizations like that.
***
 
If you don’t trust your partner, you shouldn’t be playing the game.

There just seems to be a lot of contradictory information being bantered about, all you need to do is cross-reference threads to find it....

I guess the reason I'm writing this thread is when people get attacked on these boards for certain things relating to submission and their desires to submit and how it plays out, I can relate to the perspective of the person being attacked ...and in so doing...can't immediately jump to conclusions that they are an idiot or fake.

And...in my relating...you can't call me out for having lack of experience, you can't call me out for having bad relationships (exluding 1st one lol), you can't even call me out for lack of intelligence or for being a doormat...None of those things apply to me.

Ok, the other option is: I'm fucked up, have an illusion about my intelligence, am a doormat...and if I am...You know something..I don't care...cause whatever I am doing is making me incredibly happy and is fueling the fires of an amazing relationship...and I would like to just leave my mind open that other people could enjoy a deep submission/slavery as well as leaving them room to grow right along with their mistakes while remaining a wonderful human being.

Whats wrong with owning the essence of submission or domination...sure its not for everyone, but for those who want to tread that path, good luck to them, its quite tantric to me actually.

So there [;)]

P.S. This is all over the place, I suppose I covered a lot of topics..comment on whatever part you like, or add your own stuff.

P.P.S. ...and I realise not all posters are really experiencing what they say they are experiencing...but even if thats the case..who am I to judge..on a message board I have to take issues at face value and just not get attached to whether its true or not (that's common sense to me). 



LordODiscipline -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 4:10:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Submitting does not equal stupidity, yet time and time again I see it inferred to as that. It's enough to drive a submissive/slave batty if they didn't have a good handle on themselves!

In my opinion, our initial choice of Master/Dominant is where a submissives/slaves major personal responsibility lays. After that decision has been made, the dominant has the responsibility as he/she has the authority. That just seems logical to me.


As mentioned in that other thread - I agree to the point where a legal, ethical and/or moral line is crissed and most especially where it adversely affects people outside of the relationship.
 
You can rationalize and agonize over this to your heart's desire, but that shall not mitigate that essential truth... (nor, will it stop the police from entering your home with a warrant)
 
And, it is the same at work - if you screwed up and told someone to "Dump the widow" instead of "Plump the Pillow" (as one silly example) and they tossed old lady Wilson out the third floor portico - they would be responsible for being a moron and a murderer...
 
And, I assure you that your "Ooooppppsss  -MY Bad!" will not stop the police from having a visit and the person from being summarily fired.
 
~J



Kalira -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 4:20:51 PM)

Hmm let me try and explain my thinking on this from past xp

My first Master, when I met him I was only 22, he was 45. I was as vanilla as they came [8D], and I thought he was just kinky lol. It took alot of years for me to understand and accept my slavery to him; and though he brought it about very slowly, it did not lessen the emotional, physical, or mental struggles that I went through. There was a lot of pain in those 10 years with him; physical because he was an extreme sadist [&:], mental because he would settle for no less than complete obedience, and emotional because I truly believed that I had to fight him every step of the way.

He had me do some things in those years that most would probably cringe at. Some that others would think of as being 'morally or ethically' unacceptable. This was his way of forcing me to find my own boundaries; to examine them, discuss them, analyze the reasons for them, and then make a conscious and willing decision on whether or not those boundaries would stay in place or not.

Despite the pain of the struggles that were there; I would never say that I had chosen the wrong person. His way of doing things allowed me to grow at my pace and taught me one very valuable lesson. That I have a backbone made of steel when it counts [:)]

My relationship now is very much the same. Master settles for no less than complete and total authority over me in every aspect; mental, physical, emotional and spiritual. Yet, he gives me space to analyze, contemplate, discuss, debate ( only if he feels like a good spirited debate though, cause I tend to become very involved when I am trying to make a point ); he allows me to continue to grow at my own pace.

If he was to order me to do something that I felt was against my own morals or ethics; he would expect me to analyze it, contemplate it, discuss it, and possibly debate the issue with him. Being given the right to do this does not in no way detract from the fact that he also expects complete submission from me in all areas.

Master chose me for a reason; and this is something that we often discuss in reality. He likes the fact that I think about EVERYTHING that he says, does, or orders me to do. He likes the fact that I would hesitate before doing something that would go against what I consider right and wrong. He encourages this facet of my personality.

Again, I would never say that I had chosen the wrong person. Twice now, I have chosen the two who were PERFECTLY right for ME.



candystripper -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 4:21:56 PM)

i agree with what i understood you to be saying.  i also agree with LoD.  No one can escape personal responsibility in a variety of arenas of life.  And i agree that some Men are dolts and should not be trusted to close windows when it rains.  As to the Few and the Proud, whom you might consider submitting to, it is your choice to be obedient.  Every time.  With all that an adult is required by law or her own ethics to consider, i cannot imagine "blind obedience".  Not even a dog gives that.
 
candystripper



slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 4:32:13 PM)

On Masters orders and through blind obedience I am taking myself off to the gym for 30 minutes..check in later [:)]



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 7:20:36 PM)

I think it is what you say,the smart submissive first must pick the Dominant gem among the other rocks.Then maybe as the relationship develops and the absolute total trust ensues then one can live with blind obedience. Just remember slavejali, you have found the rare Dominant gem..whilst others may have not and thus need to still maintain a bit of less blind obedience if it becomes necessary..I take heart in the joy of your life that comes through each of your posting and I hope that, that same joy finds its way to all the submiisives who also wish for the Dominant gem...be well..Tempting



LordODiscipline -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 8:21:48 PM)

Man -
 
I hate being a common igneous reject!
 
~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

I think it is what you say,the smart submissive first must pick the Dominant gem among the other rocks.Then maybe as the relationship develops and the absolute total trust ensues then one can live with blind obedience. Just remember slavejali, you have found the rare Dominant gem..whilst others may have not and thus need to still maintain a bit of less blind obedience if it becomes necessary..I take heart in the joy of your life that comes through each of your posting and I hope that, that same joy finds its way to all the submiisives who also wish for the Dominant gem...be well..Tempting



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 8:23:28 PM)

I agree wholeheartedly in that, at its essence, you claim responsibility for your submission/slavery through your choice in who you become enslaved to.

However- unlike what most people perceive, this "choice" is not a simple yes/no and is not something that happens immediately.

A CONNECTION may occur immediately.  A RELATIONSHIP develops and strengthens only over time and shared experience, and more importantly to this topic- SHARED WORK, together.

The choice is something that is made over time, consciously and unconsciously. 

Now, don't twist my words and think I'm saying something as cliched and empty as "A submissive chooses every time she submits."  Not at all.  I'm saying that we constantly support our choice with our actions.  We honor who we are by holding to our commitments to ourselves and eachother.  Since our relationships SHOULD be fulfilling to ourselves, this shouldn't even be something we have to worry about.

It's only when a relationship no longer serves those involved within it that you have to BEGIN to worry about these questions- responsibility, trust, choices, fulfillment.

So, connection may be immediate, but choice and relationships are things which develop over much time together.  Our responsibility lies in our choices and if we do not begin with choosing the relationship which serves us and who we are, we doom ourselves before anything else can have meaning.



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 8:36:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Man -
 
I hate being a common igneous reject!
 
~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

I think it is what you say,the smart submissive first must pick the Dominant gem among the other rocks.Then maybe as the relationship develops and the absolute total trust ensues then one can live with blind obedience. Just remember slavejali, you have found the rare Dominant gem..whilst others may have not and thus need to still maintain a bit of less blind obedience if it becomes necessary..I take heart in the joy of your life that comes through each of your posting and I hope that, that same joy finds its way to all the submiisives who also wish for the Dominant gem...be well..Tempting

LOL...ach! LOD you are I am sure of the Gem variety...[;)]...Tempting



slavemaia -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/15/2006 9:25:14 PM)

Ah jali, how i love your posts. Perhaps it's because i feel we are kindred souls. Now, i whole-heartedly agree that careful thought, time etc. should be taken before accepting anyone's collar or agreeing to submit - seriously that is.
 
In my situation if Master were to ever instruct me to do anything illegal, or against my core values, my first reaction would be to ask if He was running a fever. lol. i do believe that anyone - sub or slave - needs to know who it is they are agreeing to submit to. And that takes real life experience and time. Once that's in place, then i think, as a slave it's extremely appropriate to do what one is told to do, even when it doesn't make sense to you. i've learned some incredible lessons about trust by obeying what made no sense to me.
 
Control is not logical, it's control. Submission is not logical, it's submission. i used to have an awful time with obedience because i kept insisting that Master's commands should make sense to me. i know, i know - i'm laughing now too. Finally - duh - i realized oh - it's control - it doesn't have to make sense. So i could very easily see how a sub/slave could do something she was told to do simply because she was told to do it, regardless of it's logic to her.
 
i am far from dumb or naive, or lacking in much of anything. i'm 58 years old, look and feel like i'm 40, have owned my own business twice, have creativity oozing from my pores and i was bright enough not to submit to all those idiots out there demanding immediate obedience. So - yes i do it because Master says do it. He says jump, i jump. That's the agreement. The decision was made - it's not renegotiated on a daily basis. i too am very fortunate to have this incredible Master who deepens my love, my devotion and my surrender daily.



ownedgirlie -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 12:40:56 AM)

Excellent post, Jali and thanks for putting it out there.  I think it all boils down to people either relating to what others say, or relating only to the limitations of their minds. All those "what if" questions (what if Master wanted to gouge your eyes out) are ridiculous to me, and speak to what you're trying to expose here - that we must all be morons who would give ourselves to people who are that reckless.  Unless of course the person in question has an eye-gouging fetish, heh.



agirl -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 1:27:16 AM)

I'm assuming that you're referring to the girl that posted *because Master said so*.........Given that it was a pretty innocuous action she was asked to do, I didn't see where the relevance to *personal responsibility* came into it.

I'd absolutely DETEST to post something here that *I* didn't actively wish to......but if I was told to, I would. And if it happened it would be *because Master told me to*. It seems a good enough response, to me.

I'm also assuming that a lot of people here do things because they are told to....not always because they want to and not always because they'd like to.

agirl



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 7:29:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Excellent post, Jali and thanks for putting it out there.  I think it all boils down to people either relating to what others say, or relating only to the limitations of their minds. All those "what if" questions (what if Master wanted to gouge your eyes out) are ridiculous to me, and speak to what you're trying to expose here - that we must all be morons who would give ourselves to people who are that reckless.  Unless of course the person in question has an eye-gouging fetish, heh.


I agree.  As I've said before on the "No Limits" threads- I'd gouge someone's eyes out, but NOT just because someone told me to do it.  I think perhaps the key here might be "Doing something because you're told to do it" and "Doing something because you've accepted the situation, and accepted the possible consequences of your choices."

The fact that a person is specifically TOLD to do it at any particular time seems almost irrelevant- you either take responsibility for your choice or you don't. 



Kalira -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 7:32:21 AM)

quote:

think perhaps the key here might be "Doing something because you're told to do it" and "Doing something because you've accepted the situation, and accepted the possible consequences of your choices."

Nicely stated



CreativeDominant -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 7:46:43 AM)

I am curious about something.  I think jali has written an intriguing post.  I think the responses all seem to be well thought-out.  But the words expressed here are in conflict...or perhaps my muddled mind is creating a conflict where there is none...with the words expressed on the "that WHY question". 

Am I wrong in seeing contradictions?  Or is there a point I am missing?  Not trying to be sarcastic, really...I am honestly curious as to why it is O.K. to continually ask "Why?" and yet, here I see the original post stating that when your dominant tells you to do something, you should do so obediently and that you should not be considered a doormat for doing so and posts of agreement.  Or does this thread stem from the idea that some submissives disagree with the idea of always/sometimes/frequently asking "Why?"



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 8:00:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Or does this thread stem from the idea that some submissives disagree with the idea of always/sometimes/frequently asking "Why?"


As most people on the "Asking Why" thread said- asking questions is a limited exercise, and that through training, the need for "why" answers can diminish.  Eventually, you either do it or you don't.  And yet there are still exceptions :)

But I'm glad you brought up that point because a lot of people don't see that conflict coming and end up feeling quite trapped in it- the whole guilt of "subs don't ask questions, they obey" and yet in order to obey well, questions need to be answered.

Which is why I said on the "Asking Why" thread, on the "Trusting threads" and now with this thread- we're talking about a process here, something that takes work and time and regular evaluation by those involved.  Lots of people want to make Ms relationships into a "absolute, in one moment you turn into perfect slave or you suck" when relationships, even Ms ones, are a work in progress.



cloudboy -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 8:17:56 AM)

The question you seem to present is:

Why do people have a problem with TOTAL submission? (You're stuupid, you're a robot, etc.)

1. My guess for most people would be: its a place they could never go themselves or they tried total submission and couldn't make it work.

2. The premise can be turned around a bit too, aka sub's who aren't Totally submissive can be accused of not being submissive. When this happens, subs have a problem with the whole "total submission" thing.

3. For me personally, if I knew you and if I could see that your relationship works, I would be positive about your choice. But, if it struck me that your choice was an unhealthy one: a.) held back your personal development; b) prevented you from being a fully functioning individual; c) made you co-dependent; d) subjected you to stupid rules; e) subjected you to unfair situations; etc.... then I would likely think you were crazy on some level.

For example:

A highly talented amateur pianist is submissive and in a relationship with a DOM. The DOM forbids her from playing the piano or practising b/c it takes time away from him. Her response to his demand is "Yes Master, whatever you say."

a. I'd want to kill the DOM

b. I'd think the sub was crazy and short sighted.




Arpig -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 11:15:36 AM)

"I was only following orders" didn't fly at Nuremburg, and it won't fly now.
If I tell you to do something and you do it, then you are 100% responsible. Morally, ethically, and legally.
I would also be 100% responsible; morally, ethically and legally. In legal terms it is known as consipracy.
It is that simple.



slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 12:31:00 PM)

quote:

I think it is what you say,the smart submissive first must pick the Dominant gem among the other rocks.

quote:

...you claim responsibility for your submission/slavery through your choice in who you become enslaved to...... Our responsibility lies in our choices and if we do not begin with choosing the relationship which serves us and who we are, we doom ourselves before anything else can have meaning.



Yeah when it all comes down to it, we are choosing life partners, in reality there is no such thing as "slave" given the typical meaning of the word. We choose to enslave ourselves and we also choose what to enslave ourselves to, we make ourselves "slave" through submission and by living by concepts that resonate with our hearts. It is in those initial choices we make that we must be responsible. After the fact, we submit to to the style of enslavement our dominant/master/owner chooses to take. Slaves/submissives become the vehicle for the enjoyment of the dominant/Master....because they enjoy it. Both sides are happy.

I was thinking of some stuff that gets all weird on here and putting myself in the position of those at the firing end. Example; If it was Masters desire for me to use third speech, cap up, write about something that I considered private, I would do it and cop the flack. Nothing anyone said would make one iota of difference to me cause I would know in my heart I was just obeying my Master and making him happy...and thats what its all about. None of those things would be a reflection on him or me or our relationship in any kinda negative way, because I did it, no matter what anyone thought, or got annoyed by, all it would realisitcally be would be a reflection of my obedience to him. Any adverse reactions to it would simply be people not accepting our style of relationship and casting their bias towards us. It's easy for me to see who is acting with integrity and who is not in cases like that.

We accept men running around with womens panties over their head, we accept women who enjoy being brutally beaten, we accept people who enjoy having a scalpel cutting thru their precious flesh...but we downgrade someone who gets into internet protocal or using it for some purpose within their relationship? What's up with that? lol. As I see it, life is life, anything we can think of can be used as a tool for our relationships ( think I remember someone saying that over and over again on this forum), or as a plaything to spice things up....why do we constantly project that "This is ok but thats not"..yet in the next breath say " Everyones different, everyones plays it different ways and thats ok?"...There are fetishes on all kinds of levels, some of them are intellectual fetishes, mind games etc etc..it's all good.

I guess on the other end of that, when someone using those avenues downgrades someone because they don't it just starts a perpetual cycle of downgrading  like a tennis match, each side defending their position..when really there is no point at all to be made...except for perhaps..."Accept finally, everyone is different and has different preferences." Underneath it all, are the dynamics of domination and submission, this is the common ground we share, so what the heck are we fighting/arguing/making a point against? There really is no right way or wrong way as long as the relationship itself is healthy. Why step into the tennis match?

quote:

In my situation if Master were to ever instruct me to do anything illegal, or against my core values, my first reaction would be to ask if He was running a fever. lol.

 
Had a chuckle at that one, I can relate [;)]

quote:

Control is not logical, it's control. Submission is not logical, it's submission. i used to have an awful time with obedience because i kept insisting that Master's commands should make sense to me. i know, i know - i'm laughing now too. Finally - duh - i realized oh - it's control - it doesn't have to make sense. So i could very easily see how a sub/slave could do something she was told to do simply because she was told to do it, regardless of it's logic to her.

 
Nice paragraph [:)]

quote:

 think it all boils down to people either relating to what others say, or relating only to the limitations of their minds. All those "what if" questions (what if Master wanted to gouge your eyes out) are ridiculous to me,


The thing that comes to mind for me when I see stuff like this is, "What kinda world are these people living in? That that would even come up.  Sure there are axe murderers out there, but really, they are few and far between..I've met a few actually, only because I did some work at a jail in one point in my life. Most of the posters here are just regular people, got regular jobs, doing regular stuff...why in posting do we have to jump off into the fantasy land of horror at the drop of a hat. Sure I can understand sharing precautions, what we do can be dangerous and there ARE some nutso's out there...but put that safety advice in perspective.....offering that advice sanely not through paranoia, let's keep it real.

quote:

I'm also assuming that a lot of people here do things because they are told to....not always because they want to and not always because they'd like to.

 
Uh huh, and that's the type of relationship we are choosing to enter into...simply because we enjoy it. [:)]


 
Gonna post this, this is getting long, getting back to other posts in a sec...



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 12:51:58 PM)

quote:

What is the action of submission but to submit?

What is the action of domination but to dominate?
Exactly!   I'm beginning to end conversations when asked "how do you or how would you dominate me?"    Give me a break on the jerk off material request aleady.
quote:

If you don’t trust your partner, you shouldn’t be playing the game.
Amen!  It is exactly as simple as that in my opinion.      M



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