RE: A lot about nothing ...

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Lady Alaria -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 1:11:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali I was thinking of some stuff that gets all weird on here and putting myself in the position of those at the firing end. Example; If it was Masters desire for me to use third speech, cap up, write about something that I considered private, I would do it and cop the flack. Nothing anyone said would make one iota of difference to me cause I would know in my heart I was just obeying my Master and making him happy...and thats what its all about. None of those things would be a reflection on him or me or our relationship in any kinda negative way, because I did it, no matter what anyone thought, or got annoyed by, all it would realisitcally be would be a reflection of my obedience to him. Any adverse reactions to it would simply be people not accepting our style of relationship and casting their bias towards us. It's easy for me to see who is acting with integrity and who is not in cases like that. Consent, consent, consent! I think perhaps the one thing that most of us here agree on. Your actions in a public forum _are_ a reflection on you, always will be. And if they were ordered by your Master, and we know it, they are a reflection on him, and by extension, a reflection on you and on your relationship. And if you, by those actions, hurt those who have not consented(including their feelings or reputation), that is _not_ ok.

slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 1:49:29 PM)
quote: Or does this thread stem from the idea that some submissives disagree with the idea of always/sometimes/frequently asking "Why?" I can only speak from the experience of my relationship, but if i was constantly asking "Why?" Master would be asking me "Why do I percieve myself as his submissive/slave?" That's not the deal, that's not what the relationship is about. How bloody tiresome for the dominant(the type of dominant that I am attracted to anyways) to have to live in a relationship like that. On another angle: If Master saw me hesitate on something, he would be asking me "Why?" and would leave room for me to explain my feelings or thoughts so that he could handle them.....and in that way, we both end up happy. At other times, he wouldn't and I would simply submit...after all thats my role within the relationship...to submit....if at times "blindly". Yet even then, its not really blindly, I'm doing it through the recognition of the relationship I am in, so its always consciously. My decision and choice to do this came at the beginning of the relationship, it was the invisible "contract" I signed. quote: A highly talented amateur pianist is submissive and in a relationship with a DOM. The DOM forbids her from playing the piano or practising b/c it takes time away from him. Her response to his demand is "Yes Master, whatever you say." a. I'd want to kill the DOM b. I'd think the sub was crazy and short sighted. Ok, I've played (toyed) with this scenario, these are the thoughts that came to me. Every relationship I have been in I have been submissive to my partner. In my list of priorities in life "relationship" is right up there at the top of the list. Anything else I do are just....things I do, yet all things I do should stem from, or be of, benefit to the relationship, if its not, it gets dropped. Looking back on my life, my life has changed directions 180 degrees many times, perhaps each time I've started a new relationship, because of my partners influence and my desire and willingness to submit to them. Example: I've always loved music, yet with my late husband he couldn't stand it and I lived around 5 years of my life without any. I didn't feel deprived because my relationship and its harmony and me pleasing my partner was the very most important thing in my life, everything else fades into insignificance. I've been in relationships where I've worn leather, others where I've worn lace (damn that sounds like a song lol), changed groups of friends, changed what I ate, changed job directions, changed lifestyles, I've ridden with the hells angels and had dinner with diplomats ..everything to suit my partner...and I wouldn't regret it ever or think I made a mistake. The one theme remained which is of utmost importance to me, "relationship" and my submission to it. I have never lost my "self" only changed the outward circumstances, I've always been the same, submissive. To get what your saying in alignment with one of the things I was attempting to get across in the topic. "We have the responsibility to choose our dominant wisely - then submit"....in that pianist scenario...if that girl's whole heart was in her piano playing, she shouldn't agree to enter into a relationship that would stop it. There are plenty of doms in the sea, and probably a lot that would love that. I basically think more effort should be applied in agreeing to a relationship. Again, for me, my general ideologies around life focus around relationship and my submission to it - and thats ok too and doesn't make me a doormat, yet from all intents and purposes could see how others could see it that way. The other thing to note is, if left to my own devices, I am a fully funtional human being, capable of thought, inspiration and action. My submission needs to be "taken" and "controlled" and that can only happen by a dominant force. In my younger years, I was not so "intelligent" about what dominant force took me...and I winded up in a sticky situation...but as life goes on we become more intelligent and realise we have a choice....and we wind up in relationships that are really cool...but realistically the same dynamic is playing out, domination and submission..hrmm...(thinking whether to go into this)...Ok gonna make a really fucked up statment but hey ... even in the abusive relationship I was in...my submission enjoyed it, I loved the sense of control, I loved the domination, I loved the submission....In that extreme situaton I touched something deep inside me. I am submissive, point blank. It took me till I was nearly dead to realise, that I could be dominated and not killed...and that in life we have a choice as to what relationships we enter into. I grew up. Maybe having been in that kinda relationship it was the impetus for me to realise my submissive chore and come home to it. It may have also been the impetus for me not to be fearful of dropping really down into submitting to a relationship, I've been at the point of death and in that moment realised I could run away...what is there to fear after coming to a realisation like that? How can I ever be afraid of submission after that? What is there to fear from a man who 'consciously' chooses domination, not through being an abuser and lack of self control but because he can appreciate the essence of domination to whatever intensity he likes...and he can do it in whatever style he likes, he is giving me what I want..he is complimenting me....and is not an axe murderer or abuser. (I'm not really totally happy that I have expressed that exactly how I would like..so hope it makes sense to someone)

slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 2:07:44 PM)
quote: Consent, consent, consent! I think perhaps the one thing that most of us here agree on. Your actions in a public forum _are_ a reflection on you, always will be. And if they were ordered by your Master, and we know it, they are a reflection on him, and by extension, a reflection on you and on your relationship. And if you, by those actions, hurt those who have not consented(including their feelings or reputation), that is _not_ ok. Thankyou for your post, I don't think I've seen a post of yours till now. I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, the point there again is, if you've chosen your relationship wisely, however it plays out and whatever you do, should simply just be seen as domination and submission...and its all good.

MercilessMarcy -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 2:23:14 PM)
In ANY relationship 1. clearly communicate your needs, desires, boundaries UP FRONT 2. think, feel, reflect and communicate after every scene (interaction) 3. expect change The collar I give him marks him as mine, and as with any precious possession, I am responsible for his care, mental and physical.

CreativeDominant -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 2:23:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Or does this thread stem from the idea that some submissives disagree with the idea of always/sometimes/frequently asking "Why?" As most people on the "Asking Why" thread said- asking questions is a limited exercise, and that through training, the need for "why" answers can diminish. Eventually, you either do it or you don't. And yet there are still exceptions :) But I'm glad you brought up that point because a lot of people don't see that conflict coming and end up feeling quite trapped in it- the whole guilt of "subs don't ask questions, they obey" and yet in order to obey well, questions need to be answered. Which is why I said on the "Asking Why" thread, on the "Trusting threads" and now with this thread- we're talking about a process here, something that takes work and time and regular evaluation by those involved. Lots of people want to make Ms relationships into a "absolute, in one moment you turn into perfect slave or you suck" when relationships, even Ms ones, are a work in progress. LA, thanks for the response to my questions. Your questions brings up several others though...if someone considers these as highjacking the thread, please state so and I will start a new thread. I think they relate to the original post, though... All relationships are a work in progress. I agree with that and have always tried to keep my own relationships at that level. However, I've also had the dubious pleasure of dealing with a submissive who...when asked why her "questioning" level had not gone down yet during one of those periods of evaluation you spoke of...replied that she did not yet feel that "full" submission to me. When asked to explain, she was (I realize now) vague in her answer but we pushed on from there. This is the same submissive whose job suddenly settled down to the point where she went out and bought a house where she lived and then told me about it about a week before she "took back" her submission. Now...I suppose it is possible that I was a "way station" while her life was muddled or that I really did not dominate her the way she needed (I find that surprising after almost 2 years together but....) but it still leads me to wonder at what point do you look at things and say "this should be happening and it isn't" without being accused of being a "pushy" dominant or of expecting things to happen too quickly? As you noted LA, I have always seen that conflict coming and have dealt with it O.K. most times but the last time had me flummoxed. As noted above, I feel that I now realize that part of the problem was that there were a couple of issues that were not being brought to light which were determining factors in the relationship but only from one side. But at the time...when you care for someone...when you are trying to do the right thing and be what you are as a dominant while being a partner...it is a difficult thing to see quite that clearly. And from some profiles that I've read on here, it comes across from some that you may never reach that point...or am I again wrong? My previous experience...and some of the posts on this thread...tell me I am and yet, the threads mentioned by LA tell me I am not completely wrong.

slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 2:47:00 PM)
quote: if someone considers these as highjacking the thread, please state so and I will start a new thread. I think they relate to the original post, though... Perfectly ok [:)] The original post covered lots of aspects..so I'm happy with however people choose to use it (kinda like my point regardng submission hey lol)

Lady Alaria -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 4:12:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali Thankyou for your post, I don't think I've seen a post of yours till now. I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, the point there again is, if you've chosen your relationship wisely, however it plays out and whatever you do, should simply just be seen as domination and submission...and its all good. Also not disagreeing with you, for the most part. But I do disagree with the notion that, in your domination and submission, it's all good, no matter what, so long as there is submission. I tend to think it's all good till someone loses an eye. ;p Or rather, it's all good until what you are doing directly impacts someone who did not agree to submit. If one goes and does something(like your example of telling of a distressing time) due to their masters order, and it hurts or distresses someone, it's suddenly not all good. Even if no harm was intended, harm was caused, and someone was responsible. I'd personally put the responsibility on the master's shoulder's but treat the slave to equal blame _as an extension of the master_ As to the notion of blind obedience to one you have decided you can trust not being equal to stupidity, or doormattynes, I agree wholeheartedly. It is at the heart of what I think it means to be submissive. Not that this can, or should be achieved overnight, as LA points out, nor should it be a requirement for one to be considered a 'true' sub/slave, but I don't think that those who strive for it should be looked down upon or made to feel stupid for their efforts. ----edited because the first paragraph dint make no sense.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 5:55:49 PM)
Exactly, it's the ones who sleep on the floor and let their doms play with other chicks who should get looked down on and made to feel stupid :D Love the "doormattyness"

Lady Alaria -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/16/2006 10:45:56 PM)
blink, blink Not sure exactly how to take that LA... not sure exactly what form of sarcasm you are or aren't using. Ah well.... Going home to wipe my feet on a sub now.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 7:02:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria blink, blink Not sure exactly how to take that LA... not sure exactly what form of sarcasm you are or aren't using. Ah well.... Going home to wipe my feet on a sub now. Ahhh darn internet... Trust me, it was meant as a good and complimentary thing.

slavemaia -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 12:17:39 PM)
Gawd i love this post. In my experience it takes alot for both a Dom/Master (and Dominas) and a sub/slave to reach deeply into themselves enough to relinquish the fear and distrust that can interfere in the incredible power exhange that, for me, is only possible without the fear. i think the bottom line for me (excuse the pun) is do i submit or don't i. Whether this occurs in the context of a scene, a negotiated activity, or a 24/7 lifestyle, the question still is "do i want to submit"? i came to my present relationship with truckloads of fears. i'd spent my life disguising them so i appeared "together", in control, self-sufficient and yadda yadda yadda. Eventually i realized that these disguises were only the armor around the slave within who was too afraid to be so vulnerable with anyone. It's taken great care and love from my Master to help me let go of this armor. This is an incredible gift He's given me. Did i want to submit before? Yes. Could i? Not really. Not until i connected with someone who could help me set aside this armor and allow me to sink down into that dormant slave within. i still remember the exact day that switch was turned on and it has never turned off since. Now, for the sake of this thread - moment by moment any choice, any decision and responsibility for it is ultimately mine. However, i have chosen and have agreed to relinquish that control to my Master, someone i trust and who i know loves me and cares for me deeply. To question Him, to say i won't do that because "i" don't agree, breaks our agreement. He has nowhere to go. He can't force me to obey, nor does He want to. So if i have agreed to obey and submit, He takes me at my word and expects this of me. To question Him, to disobey only tells Him my word means nothing. Does that make me a doormat? No. It makes me one helluva happy slave.

daddysprop247 -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 12:34:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Exactly, it's the ones who sleep on the floor and let their doms play with other chicks who should get looked down on and made to feel stupid :D Love the "doormattyness" well dang LA, why you gotta be that way? crying and sniffling as i go off to nap under the kitchen table

slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 12:49:11 PM)
quote: In ANY relationship 1. clearly communicate your needs, desires, boundaries UP FRONT 2. think, feel, reflect and communicate after every scene (interaction) 3. expect change The collar I give him marks him as mine, and as with any precious possession, I am responsible for his care, mental and physical. On points: 1. Exactly, the relationship should not be made solid until all factors have been taken into account. 2. Communciation should be at the core of every relationship. Communeication = relationship 3. There is one constant in life - change [:)] "I am responsible for his care, mental and physical" This is one of the points I briefly touched on in topic, that we haven't really explored. If someone is really "submitting" to you, it seems to me that that actually means to submit. Submission itself is a "giving over". For "me" that doesn't mean holding back in any way, I do submit my thoughts and feelings to Master and because of that he is naturally going to be a great influence on them, he in essence will dominate them. Although, as I have stated, no matter what, I don't think we ever can lose our "self" (that is the realisation I have come to)..in the day to day playing out of things a submissives happiness and mindset, just through their submission is going to be greatly effected by the dominant...if someone is giving over to someone, the person in authority must accept the respnsibility. If that wasn't the case its like saying.. "Yeah submit but not really...let's play a game". (Which is fine btw)...but if we are talking about full time domination and submission...a whole new set of rules apply.

Rover -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 12:58:02 PM)
It is whatever you make of it. The specifics of the relationship... the mutual obligations and responsibilities, rights and limits, etc. are whatever the two (or more) people in the relationship agree upon. There isn't any blueprint for all BDSM relationships. Consequently, it's impossible to define all relationships. For example, "control" is what defines D/s relationships but many engage in sensation play, absent any control. John

slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 1:03:01 PM)
Rover: Just as a side-note: I love your quote [:)] quote: Quote: slavemaia i still remember the exact day that switch was turned on and it has never turned off since. quote: "Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions." Sri da Avabhas I think those things apply to submission: Once you touch it, there is never really any going back in regards to relationship. You've been changed, opened, unravelled, revealed for who you are, what you are: How can you ever again hide from yourself without condemning yourself to a superficial existance.

Rover -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 1:13:07 PM)
Thanks, wish I had said it. :) John

agirl -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 1:15:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali quote: Or does this thread stem from the idea that some submissives disagree with the idea of always/sometimes/frequently asking "Why?" I can only speak from the experience of my relationship, but if i was constantly asking "Why?" Master would be asking me "Why do I percieve myself as his submissive/slave?" That's not the deal, that's not what the relationship is about. How bloody tiresome for the dominant(the type of dominant that I am attracted to anyways) to have to live in a relationship like that. On another angle: If Master saw me hesitate on something, he would be asking me "Why?" and would leave room for me to explain my feelings or thoughts so that he could handle them.....and in that way, we both end up happy. At other times, he wouldn't and I would simply submit...after all thats my role within the relationship...to submit....if at times "blindly". Yet even then, its not really blindly, I'm doing it through the recognition of the relationship I am in, so its always consciously. My decision and choice to do this came at the beginning of the relationship, it was the invisible "contract" I signed. quote: A highly talented amateur pianist is submissive and in a relationship with a DOM. The DOM forbids her from playing the piano or practising b/c it takes time away from him. Her response to his demand is "Yes Master, whatever you say." a. I'd want to kill the DOM b. I'd think the sub was crazy and short sighted. Ok, I've played (toyed) with this scenario, these are the thoughts that came to me. Every relationship I have been in I have been submissive to my partner. In my list of priorities in life "relationship" is right up there at the top of the list. Anything else I do are just....things I do, yet all things I do should stem from, or be of, benefit to the relationship, if its not, it gets dropped. Looking back on my life, my life has changed directions 180 degrees many times, perhaps each time I've started a new relationship, because of my partners influence and my desire and willingness to submit to them. Example: I've always loved music, yet with my late husband he couldn't stand it and I lived around 5 years of my life without any. I didn't feel deprived because my relationship and its harmony and me pleasing my partner was the very most important thing in my life, everything else fades into insignificance. I've been in relationships where I've worn leather, others where I've worn lace (damn that sounds like a song lol), changed groups of friends, changed what I ate, changed job directions, changed lifestyles, I've ridden with the hells angels and had dinner with diplomats ..everything to suit my partner...and I wouldn't regret it ever or think I made a mistake. The one theme remained which is of utmost importance to me, "relationship" and my submission to it. I have never lost my "self" only changed the outward circumstances, I've always been the same, submissive. To get what your saying in alignment with one of the things I was attempting to get across in the topic. "We have the responsibility to choose our dominant wisely - then submit"....in that pianist scenario...if that girl's whole heart was in her piano playing, she shouldn't agree to enter into a relationship that would stop it. There are plenty of doms in the sea, and probably a lot that would love that. I basically think more effort should be applied in agreeing to a relationship. Again, for me, my general ideologies around life focus around relationship and my submission to it - and thats ok too and doesn't make me a doormat, yet from all intents and purposes could see how others could see it that way. The other thing to note is, if left to my own devices, I am a fully funtional human being, capable of thought, inspiration and action. My submission needs to be "taken" and "controlled" and that can only happen by a dominant force. In my younger years, I was not so "intelligent" about what dominant force took me...and I winded up in a sticky situation...but as life goes on we become more intelligent and realise we have a choice....and we wind up in relationships that are really cool...but realistically the same dynamic is playing out, domination and submission..hrmm...(thinking whether to go into this)...Ok gonna make a really fucked up statment but hey ... even in the abusive relationship I was in...my submission enjoyed it, I loved the sense of control, I loved the domination, I loved the submission....In that extreme situaton I touched something deep inside me. I am submissive, point blank. It took me till I was nearly dead to realise, that I could be dominated and not killed...and that in life we have a choice as to what relationships we enter into. I grew up. Maybe having been in that kinda relationship it was the impetus for me to realise my submissive chore and come home to it. It may have also been the impetus for me not to be fearful of dropping really down into submitting to a relationship, I've been at the point of death and in that moment realised I could run away...what is there to fear after coming to a realisation like that? How can I ever be afraid of submission after that? What is there to fear from a man who 'consciously' chooses domination, not through being an abuser and lack of self control but because he can appreciate the essence of domination to whatever intensity he likes...and he can do it in whatever style he likes, he is giving me what I want..he is complimenting me....and is not an axe murderer or abuser. (I'm not really totally happy that I have expressed that exactly how I would like..so hope it makes sense to someone) I really enjoyed your post. It's always interesting to have insights into other people's drive and thoughts. I often think about the type of drive that makes a person submissive, in a core way, because I'm not. There are lots of similarities in my life and the way I live it..... but my drive is not fundamentally submissive. I can imagine living without music if my master demanded that, using your example, but I would not be happy about it and neither would I hide it. I think I would become used to it, too.........but I wouldn't be happy about it. I would be able to glean something from the fact that HE wished it but it wouldn't diminish my pining for music nor my discontent. As I become older the LESS I can be bothered to contort myself, or any part of me, to someone elses wishes and demands. agirl

slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 1:44:17 PM)
quote: I can imagine living without music if my master demanded that, using your example, It was interesting when Master entered my life. He is a music fiend...and very LOUD music (probably because he is deaf..well not really, it was LOUD music in his 20's that caused his deafness)...but anyways what I wanted to say was...whe Master brought music back into my life again, I think I went into shock for awhile, it almost felt imposing on my being, I was so used to silence, I realised I hadn't danced or sang for the longest time..it was like a re-awakening in so many ways..yet I can see both those situations, from both partners, through my submission to their "way" gave me a gift, and neither was lacking. Partner who didn't like music and liked everything very quiet: (Actually there was more to this relationship than just the loss of that scensory factor)..no TV either for example...no sex....hardly any outside impetus at all in so many ways)....I lost any desire/need I had for outside things to provide my mind with "entertainment". I found music within me and got the chance to really connect with myself. (Btw,,, I still considered him my Master, even though this relationship had nothing to do wth BDSM...in fact...he felt that my previous involvement in BDSM was abusive and tried to "heal" me from it) Master who likes music and outside fun and games: Its allowed me to integrate that sense of well-being inside me with interaction and participation in "things". It's allowed "application". ....umm errr....And I get sex again now and a whole bunch of fun lol Dunno, just thoughts....but I can say, my absolute submission in each situation... was all good and didn't take anything in the slightest from me...."added to" perhaps.

agirl -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 2:12:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali quote: I can imagine living without music if my master demanded that, using your example, It was interesting when Master entered my life. He is a music fiend...and very LOUD music (probably because he is deaf..well not really, it was LOUD music in his 20's that caused his deafness)...but anyways what I wanted to say was...whe Master brought music back into my life again, I think I went into shock for awhile, it almost felt imposing on my being, I was so used to silence, I realised I hadn't danced or sang for the longest time..it was like a re-awakening in so many ways..yet I can see both those situations, from both partners, through my submission to their "way" gave me a gift, and neither was lacking. Partner who didn't like music and liked everything very quiet: (Actually there was more to this relationship than just the loss of that scensory factor)..no TV either for example...no sex....hardly any outside impetus at all in so many ways)....I lost any desire/need I had for outside things to provide my mind with "entertainment". I found music within me and got the chance to really connect with myself. (Btw,,, I still considered him my Master, even though this relationship had nothing to do wth BDSM...in fact...he felt that my previous involvement in BDSM was abusive and tried to "heal" me from it) Master who likes music and outside fun and games: Its allowed me to integrate that sense of well-being inside me with interaction and participation in "things". It's allowed "application". ....umm errr....And I get sex again now and a whole bunch of fun lol Dunno, just thoughts....but I can say, my absolute submission in each situation... was all good and didn't take anything in the slightest from me...."added to" perhaps. I won't say I understand, because I don't. I simply don't have that facet of character....BUT .......I do understand that when in a relationship, there are many things that can appear on the surface, to be rather awful, but aren't. I know that in my relationship there are some situations and circumstances that could be seen as horribly abusive. If I am not willing to obey, I'm forced to, physically if necessary........I might be hit and hurt until I give in. Eventually I WILL obey though it might be against my will at the time. It's often in the spin. agirl

slavejali -> RE: A lot about nothing ... (11/17/2006 2:18:05 PM)
quote: *BUT .......I do understand that when in a relationship, there are many things that can appear* on the surface, to be rather awful, but aren't. ....... It's often in the spin.** That's what I was saying [:)]

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