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RE: Red flags? - 11/19/2006 1:00:24 PM

jblack

Posts: 102
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline

Thanks again, everyone. You've offered some very good advice, and I really appreciate that you took the time to help me with this. That he has a different style from mine may very well be the case. I think I'll ask a few of the questions you recommended (i.e., describe a perfect day, how do you feel about your exes?) and see if casual banter is in our future. In fact, that might make me see if we have a future.

As a newbie, I suppose I can admit that I'm at a loss as to one thing, although I've seen it before. What does HNG stand for? I can pretty much guess from the context, but I came up with a few possibilties that might amuse you:

Helps No Girls
Has Not Grown
Hates Nine Goats
Hell, Nothing Good
Hugs Nifty Gowns
Hilarious Not Generous
Having No Groans
Hysterical Night Genuflection
Hot Not Genuine

Well, that last one actually seems to summarize what HNG seems to stand for when just going on context. Ooh, wait, I think I got it: He's Not Genuine. Whoo-hoo! If I'm right, then never let it be said that my third grade teacher who told me that eventually you can solve any puzzle was wrong. If not, well, I'll find that teacher and give her a piece of my mind!

But the others were kind of funny, right? Well, maybe a little, teeny bit funny? Okay, so they weren't funny. A girl can try . . . .

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 21

RE: Red flags? - 11/19/2006 1:22:46 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

Horny Net Geek

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to jblack)

Post #: 22

RE: Red flags? - 11/19/2006 1:23:35 PM

Aileen68

Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
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I thought Hell, Nothing Good was appropriate too.

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 23

RE: Red flags? - 11/19/2006 3:45:28 PM

jblack

Posts: 102
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline

Yes, I can see how "horny net geek" and "hell, nothing good" could be confused ....

(in reply to Aileen68)

Post #: 24

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 3:14:35 AM

champagnewishes

Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Orange County
Status: offline

I wouldn't say anything specific is a red flag....the combination of them all could be. The fact your thinking red flag I think is a better indication that something about him isn't sitting right. Don't use the fact that you are new as a reason to dismiss your instincts. I wasn't new and i got sucked into an unbelievable set of circumstances over the course of two years. Looking back, all the red flags were there.   I was too willing to rationalize and dismiss them in my own mind. What was even stranger was at the time that this was going on, i was hosting a support group for women on this very topic.

Alot of good signs have been mentioned specific to possibilities of him being married or less than scrupulous Doms. My situation was neither of these....but based on my experience, I now pay attention to the following:

1) Conversations that are specific to a certain time frame. When they were in school, or 10 years ago, or current events only.

2) Vagueness about their family, upbringing, where they were born, friends, what they did last weekend.

3) Conversations that always lead back to you, your wants, needs, desires, goals....without sharing any of their own.

4) Making a major career change, leading a bohemian lifestyle, shedding materialistic items, moving and dual residency.

5) Nothing that legally documents them....no car, lease, job that can be verified (self employed)...and doesn't use commerical airlines.

6) What I call the "hero complex"...they inflate issues you may be having to larger than life proportion and then swoop in as the knight in shining armor coming to your rescue.

Best wishes...............



_____________________________

Nirvana cannot be described, it is only understood truly by a person who has experienced it.

(in reply to jblack)

Post #: 25

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 5:10:39 AM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

Im sorry but the "I just want to please you" was the only red flag for me and a MAJOR one just because well isnt that a very "submissive" way to talk... Im sorry but IMM the slave and i want to please you that is why I am slave. Now I hate Doms that think they are the only one in the relationship that needs to be pleased BUT to say as a Dom "I just want to please you" is so fake and unreal from the Dom side that it seems to me like something is up and something isnt right.. Sorry if Im stereotyping its just how that statement made me feel.. That is my gut reaction and nothing more.

Magik's slave

Edited to add: is there a such thing as subbing from the top because if there is this sounds like it!!

Magik's slave

< Message edited by MagiksSlave -- 11/20/2006 5:16:10 AM >

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 26

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 5:43:48 AM

CrazyC

Posts: 949
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

Number3 really would put me on the edge of my seat. (It got the eye brow raised when i read it.) For this reason...how the heck is he going to lead me if he doesn't know what he wants. That would mean he wants you to make all the decision, and how do you do you be subly if you dont know how to make him happy.

My red flags that i have had to use, since i am still learning...
They change information on you when you start talking more.
They seem to only want to chat on the internet, but never want to move to the phone.
They want to meet in a secluded place..DV was right on the money.
They haven't been able to hold a steady job for any length of time over two years.
They start ordering me around and tell me i am theirs, before i have even met them face to face.

I asked one Dom friend about the fact of how many Doms seem to say the same thing to attract me..."I want to own you." "You know you want me to teach you..." ect. He told me that it is thier way of getting in your head, and a true sub will get weak from it. He said he uses it all the himself. So knowing that, the best advice is to know exactly what you want and to remember that until it becomes serious you are just getting to know each other. :D

_____________________________

"You never lose by loving. You always lose by holding back." Barbara De Angelis

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 27

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 5:48:19 AM

CrazyC

Posts: 949
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Im sorry but the "I just want to please you" was the only red flag for me and a MAJOR one just because well isnt that a very "submissive" way to talk... Im sorry but IMM the slave and i want to please you that is why I am slave. Now I hate Doms that think they are the only one in the relationship that needs to be pleased BUT to say as a Dom "I just want to please you" is so fake and unreal from the Dom side that it seems to me like something is up and something isnt right.. Sorry if Im stereotyping its just how that statement made me feel.. That is my gut reaction and nothing more.

Magik's slave

Edited to add: is there a such thing as subbing from the top because if there is this sounds like it!!

Magik's slave

LMAO...totally agree! I'd take an arrogent ass over a man who "just wants to please me."

_____________________________

"You never lose by loving. You always lose by holding back." Barbara De Angelis

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 28

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 5:48:59 AM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

asked one Dom friend about the fact of how many Doms seem to say the same thing to attract me..."I want to own you." "You know you want me to teach you..." ect. He told me that it is thier way of getting in your head, and a true sub will get weak from it. He said he uses it all the himself. So knowing that, the best advice is to know exactly what you want and to remember that until it becomes serious you are just getting to know each other. :D

Guess Im not a true sub beacuse those line squick me and make me think the dude is a sleeze ball!!!! You want to own me great lets get to know eachother I want you to teach me how about you let me be the judge of that!!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to CrazyC)

Post #: 29

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 5:52:59 AM

CrazyC

Posts: 949
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

yep...that is what i thought. It actually annoys, because that means they aren't creative enough to figure out something new.

_____________________________

"You never lose by loving. You always lose by holding back." Barbara De Angelis

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 30

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 7:52:50 AM

Ava82

Posts: 55
Joined: 1/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

asked one Dom friend about the fact of how many Doms seem to say the same thing to attract me..."I want to own you." "You know you want me to teach you..." ect. He told me that it is thier way of getting in your head, and a true sub will get weak from it. He said he uses it all the himself. So knowing that, the best advice is to know exactly what you want and to remember that until it becomes serious you are just getting to know each other. :D

Guess Im not a true sub beacuse those line squick me and make me think the dude is a sleeze ball!!!! You want to own me great lets get to know eachother I want you to teach me how about you let me be the judge of that!!!

Magik's slave

Seriously! I can't stand those lines. Another that really, really squicks me is the "Do you dare?" or "Take a chance" or "Are you for real?" variant. UGH. I think to myself, if you have to *challenge* me to send you an email....turn it into a sort of game-how much do you really have to offer?

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 31

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 9:17:26 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

Of the three things the OP mentioned specifically I do not see the stereotyped red flags in them them. He may just not be an IM person. I know I am not one as well. He is a man, how many ever talk a lot about there past relationships or details about their children especially when they can talk about kinky things? The third one is not a red flag in some deep lie he has but would really be a concern for me to drop him. There are dominants that feed off their sub, but not to have any deisres/visions or not admitting to them would be a giant concern to me in these type of relationships.

In genereal though red flags can be different for every situation. First a person should trust their instincts but also need to think that some things might not be red flags but just that all people are different. There is no rulebook for life or how to deal in online to real life relationships.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 32

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 11:06:15 AM

BossySSBBW

Posts: 132
Joined: 5/18/2006
Status: offline

I agree with SamKeithsslave, I am not Catholic, but they have a sin by omission thing. Seems he might have a lot of trouble in communicating in real time, or chat time. Does he volunteer anything in his e-mails or are they answers to your questions?
He would be one I would want a full background check done on before I go anywhere but public places with.
This is of course just my opinion.

(in reply to SamKeithsslave)

Post #: 33

RE: Red flags? - 11/20/2006 8:13:36 PM

jblack

Posts: 102
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline

Thanks again, everyone. Your advice has been most useful. I had a good conversation with him the other night, and I used a lot of your recommendations to get some answers.

Fortunately, he seems like a much better guy now. He's still good friends with one of his exes, though he can't stand the other one; he was being terse and weird because the battery on his laptop was about die; and he was totally willing to share personal information that could be used to check up on him, if necessary; he was very open about all of my concerns; and we seemed to develop a good rappaport. Thus, I'm very relieved.

It also seems that he does, in fact, have many specific desires (he was much more forthcoming when I asked him to describe that perfect day--thanks!). Just to clarify, he never said he wanted to please me but that he wanted to fulfill my fantasies; I think he was reluctant to scare me off with specifics. A lot of things make me nervous because I'm so innocent about all matters sexual, and I think he was trying to reassure me that I wouldn't have to do anything that was off-limits. But he's very clear on the fact that, as a sub, my job is to please him, not the other way around. He can be pretty Domly when he wants to be (which makes me all tingly, of course).

Anyway, thanks again, everyone! I just wanted you to know that your advice was put to well-use!

(in reply to BossySSBBW)

Post #: 34

RE: Red flags? - 11/21/2006 2:29:30 AM

swtnsparkling

Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

One thing I have always believed is that you should always go with your gut. There seems to be something that is making you wonder about this person. You can never really be overly cautious when it comes to online relationships.

However, it could be that there is nothing wrong with this person other than his style is not your style. Maybe your "red flags:" are nothing more than a signal to your brain that this particular person is not the one you are seeking.

sorry my reply is one of those boring ones- but I just had to chime in and say the above makes so much sense to me nicly said

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace

A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 35

RE: Red flags? - 11/21/2006 4:10:16 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

Ok, ok ... I can't resist:

Red Flags (You know you have a real dom on your hands when ... )

For future reference jblack.

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to jblack)

Post #: 36

RE: Red flags? - 11/21/2006 6:46:02 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

A bit of a late (and lengthy) response, and it sounds like you’ve been somewhat reassured in the meantime, but...

quote:

ORIGINAL: jblack

... what are some common red flags that a sub might keep her eyes open to when trying to choose someone trustworthy?

Aside from those mentioned in the thread that FirmHandKY gave a link to...

(By the way... they might be funny, but those are in fact real examples from communications I've had with "doms" on CollarMe. They are the obvious ones, but they are still red flags.)

Keep an eye out for recycled emails. If they aren't specific to your conversations and interspersed with and specifically answering bits of your own emails... be wary. Some very savvy types have generic emails that they can tailor to any woman they are communicating with... saves them time and makes them look like they are investing time in you.

In my experience, most conversations start out with sharing a general idea of what it is you are looking for (i.e. playdates, long term relationship, etc.), your philosophies of the lifestyle (i.e. not into poly, not into pain, etc.), and experiences you might have in common here on CollarMe or whatever site it is you meet on. This would seem to be a safe meeting ground of ideas...

Where things go south is if he wants to steer the conversation right into sexual fantasies and BDSM checklists. Big red flag... unless you aren’t looking for a long-term relationship. But even then, if all you want is a playdate, I can’t imagine not wanting to get to know any potential partner a little bit better. At any rate, the key is to only go where you are comfortable right now.

Concerning the rest of my advice, it’s primarily written from the standpoint of someone seeking a long-term relationship. That’s what I know. But it can serve anyone well, depending upon how you want to apply it.

Anyway... a typical and comfortable segue from the general ideas would be to discuss your journeys thus far in the lifestyle... when did you know you were a dominant/submissive?... how did you find out about D/s?... and similar types of questions. There should be no pressure for soul-bearing at this point; no "tell me of your sexual experience" questions.

A bit of a caveat here... it isn’t always a bad thing to share sexual experiences early on. If it’s a situation where you are mutually sharing some details of your interests, there might be points where either you or he want to get clarification. Keep in mind that you are trying to determine if this person is compatible with you... and that will entail sexual and BDSM compatibility. My caution is to generally avoid a situation where you are being grilled for intimate details of your sexual experiences and fantasies to the exclusion of all other types of conversation. In the same respect that there is a need to determine sexual and BDSM compatibility, you also need to find out about general life compatibility.

Again, go with what you are comfortable with.

When first conversing make a rule with yourself that any information he asks of you, he should provide the same information for himself, either before asking you or allowing you the opportunity to ask the same from him. For example, if he asks you about your educational background, he should either automatically tell you what his is, or let you ask him before he pushes the conversation on to the "next question". If you do ask and he avoids answering, that's a huge red flag. This should be a conversation, not a one sided interview.

In this give and take, you should also be very aware about the pattern of who asks first. He shouldn’t always ask for your information first, then provide his... nor should it be the other way around. You may have to make a conscious effort, but mix it up and take turns. The reason for doing this is something known as mirroring that you want to avoid.

Mirroring creates “false” compatibility. It is very easy in the excitement of meeting someone new to unconsciously “mirror” the other persons wants and desires. In wanting to please and form a bond, we can find ourselves suddenly wanting something that we’ve never wanted before, simply because the other person expresses the desire and we want the relationship to develop. Worse yet, we can fool ourselves into twisting our own ideas and experiences to match the other person.

There’s also a danger because of predators who use this technique consciously. If he manipulates the conversation so that he always has your information first, then he can tailor his answer to “mirror” yours and lure you into thinking you’ve found “Dom Right”. Just be aware.

If he doesn't seem interested in knowing about you (and NOT just your sexual fantasies, either), he probably isn't. If he just sits back and tries to steer you into entertaining him, he probably is just wanting to be entertained for the evening.

Oh, and if he asks you what you are wearing... HUGE RED FLAG.

And for what it's worth, he should be just as interested in you knowing about him, as well. He may not be comfortable giving out specific personal information at the first (and neither should you), but his real first name, what he does for a living, and his marital/family situation are all pieces of information that you should have by the end of your first conversation.

If you've shared a photo with him and he hasn't returned the favor within a communication or two, or has made excuses (i.e. "My digital camera is broken" or "In my line of work I have to be very careful"), be very cautious yourself. Digital cameras can be purchased for less than $20... do you really want to get involved with someone who can't afford $20? And the "I can't risk being recognized" line is a poor one unless you live in the same town with a population of less than 100. Heck, there are times when I'd have a hard time recognizing my own children in a crowd.

I could honestly continue on, but this post has become very lengthy as it is. My general advice is to listen to your “inner voice” or “gut feeling”. If something doesn’t feel right or make sense, there’s a real reason. Ask for clarification... ask the same question again at another time but in a different way... look for inconsistencies... and follow your instinct.

Finally, be very aware and cautious about the phenomenon known as “sub-frenzy”. If you aren’t familiar with it, you can search for information about it right here on the forums or just ask.

Best of Wishes,

LostTreasure

(in reply to jblack)

Post #: 37

RE: Red flags? - 11/23/2006 12:53:46 AM

fireflyred

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/5/2006
Status: offline

As stupid and childish as this may seem. quiz him, briefly. for example throw something like this into the mix:

well. you know, you remember why I told you I was scared of (knife play/suspension/something that you aren't actually scared of and/or haven't made any reference to yet...)

Red flag response: Yes, of course, and I will respect your limits and move you past them as I judge your readiness. I totally felt for you as you shared that with me ...(Why: because,...he doesn't know what the fuck your talking about, and responds like he does, because he's never really listening to you and he thinks that you may have mentioned it but who cares.)
oK response: I'm sorry, no I don't remember you saying that...

some other interesting points.
He's never mentioned the marriages/divorces without you asking...I'd say this is a good thing. I know a few girls who have lost or almost lost their kids. and in that context, I'd like to point out that I've observed the girls who go on and on about how much they loved their kids and oh somebody feel sorry for me oh the agony! they are the ones who really fucked off their responsibilities the most and they just "use" their kids as leverage when they seek pity or attention. another girl I know who lost her kids due to her asshole boyfriends harming one of them...she just could not even talk about her kids, the one time she did, i mean man, that girl just kills herself inside she misses them so much and wishes she had left that guy sooner. see my point. going on and on about divorces usually is in a bitter context, or a wistful I'm still in love and just need a rebound relationship daze.

many abusers play the victim role in regards to past relationships to gain sympathy or empathy in the beginning, wounded-deeply-sensitive-Mr. Right.

I'd be stoked on it anyways.
In fact, I'd say that depending on how often you two talk and how "brief" his responses are, probably means that he's not the weirdo pervert guy jacking off and hunting potentials all day and super eager to be having a real live conversation... he's probably multi tasking, add that to the lenghthly emails and I'd assume from the snapshot you gave me that he does care about you enough to sit down and focus on writing something to you, (can't multitask while doing that)

as long as he doesn't try to switch up things that he's stated about himself (which would indicate that he chats w/ so many ppl or is being so fake and that he is motivated so desperately to keep you interested that he will change major things he's stated about himself or his character just in case he got lost in his lies) he should be fine for now

another quiz question, throw something like this into the mix,
You: i was thinking about that time you were telling me about -- (leading me with a leash/gagging me/sharing me with your friends/wanting to include another slave in our play...something that he's never actually mentioned) -- and i was reading up more about it and it sounds (fun/scary/etc)

red flag response: yeah, okay well i think it's fun too --- ( again acting like he knows what the fuck you were talking about)

if you've talked at length enough to know details pretty decently such as YOUR childrens names that have come up several times in conversation, say...one of my kids...the older one, and see if he says, "brian or ricky..." showing that he has listened in the past and shows interest..but only if you've really mentioned the subject matter a lot not if you mentioned once that you love tim cruise. ya know

only real red flag distinguishable online is people who aren't listening to you. and don't play this little quiz game more than twice, and only do it twice if the first answer is super vague, mind-fucking constantly is an obsessive/paranoid/unhealthy behavior and there is a margin or error in doing dumb shit like this... don't make your final decision based on the result if you do this at all

(in reply to jblack)

Post #: 38

RE: Red flags? - 11/23/2006 1:05:50 AM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

quote:

many abusers play the victim role in regards to past relationships to gain sympathy or empathy in the beginning, wounded-deeply-sensitive-Mr. Right.

So true...

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to fireflyred)

Post #: 39

RE: Red flags? - 11/23/2006 11:54:31 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

fireflyred,

Very good post, with some very specific examples. I like your thinking. However, I wanted to also give a little more leeway to the way you might interpret some of the responses you may receive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fireflyred

well. you know, you remember why I told you I was scared of (knife play/suspension/something that you aren't actually scared of and/or haven't made any reference to yet...)

Red flag response: Yes, of course, and I will respect your limits and move you past them as I judge your readiness. I totally felt for you as you shared that with me ...(Why: because,...he doesn't know what the fuck your talking about, and responds like he does, because he's never really listening to you and he thinks that you may have mentioned it but who cares.)

oK response: I'm sorry, no I don't remember you saying that...

Your "bad" response may well be correct in any one case. Or totally incorrect. You've never told someone a story or about an event, and then forgot you told them? And then told them again?

You've never had someone tell you about an event, and then, when they refer to it, have a "blonde" moment about it because it has slipped your mind?

quote:

ORIGINAL: fireflyred

another quiz question, throw something like this into the mix,

You: i was thinking about that time you were telling me about -- (leading me with a leash/gagging me/sharing me with your friends/wanting to include another slave in our play...something that he's never actually mentioned) -- and i was reading up more about it and it sounds (fun/scary/etc)

red flag response: yeah, okay well i think it's fun too --- ( again acting like he knows what the fuck you were talking about)

And, perhaps, he is just being polite, and not attempting to challenge you?

Perhaps he is thinking "hmmm, she must have told that to one of her other doms ... but, I won't play "gotcha" with her over it. I really like her, and we'll work it out. And, hey, now I know something: she is comfortable enough with me that she's starting to think of me as "the" person she confided in."

quote:

ORIGINAL: fireflyred

if you've talked at length enough to know details pretty decently such as YOUR childrens names that have come up several times in conversation, say...one of my kids...the older one, and see if he says, "brian or ricky..." showing that he has listened in the past and shows interest..but only if you've really mentioned the subject matter a lot not if you mentioned once that you love tim cruise. ya know

I have problems, sometimes, remembering the correct names of my brothers and sisters, and of my own kids and grand kids.

Often times, I'm listening to the emotional content and context. The details about a person's name, or exactly when something happened, or what exactly was said, aren't things that stick out in my mind.

For example, my submissive has three sons, and talks about them occasionally, using their names. I'm bad because I can't always remember which son did what, or because I occasionally get their birth order confused?

quote:

ORIGINAL: fireflyred

only real red flag distinguishable online is people who aren't listening to you. and don't play this little quiz game more than twice, and only do it twice if the first answer is super vague, mind-fucking constantly is an obsessive/paranoid/unhealthy behavior and there is a margin or error in doing dumb shit like this... don't make your final decision based on the result if you do this at all

Now, generally this is good information, but I'd take except in the "only twice". "Only twice" if you are attempting to "set them up" for failure and are afraid of getting caught, maybe.

I think you should always be processing the reactions, and the facts of a relationship. And, especially at first, when what you are doing is determining if the other person has the integrity and honesty that might make them worth establishing a relationship.

What you are trying to do is build up a picture of the other person's personality, and you do that by always comparing and contrasting, and by asking questions and asking for clarification when something doesn't seem to mesh well with other things you may be been told.

I think that very few "gotcha" questions show the asker in a good light, and if I thought someone was playing that game with me ... it wouldn't improve my impression of them.

That's not to say that you shouldn't question, quiz and dig. It isn't that you shouldn't compare, contrast and analyze. But the attitude you have when you do so, can reflect right back at you.

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to fireflyred)

Post #: 40

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