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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/26/2006 2:35:13 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Some people need to believe that the lifestyle and those who inhabit it are special.  And that being part of the lifestyle makes them somehow, more special.  I think it's funny to hold those thoughts.  And I find it amusing when people expound on it, as if vanilla/non-kink people are somehow lacking because of their lifestyle choice.  

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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/26/2006 2:59:18 PM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Some people need to believe that the lifestyle and those who inhabit it are special.  And that being part of the lifestyle makes them somehow, more special.  I think it's funny to hold those thoughts.  And I find it amusing when people expound on it, as if vanilla/non-kink people are somehow lacking because of their lifestyle choice.  


Okay... logged in as myself now...

Katy, I don't think anyone here is saying that being in the lifestyle makes someone better or "special".   I agree that as a blanket statement, that is absurd.  However... is it so strange that a man who is attracted to submissive women would find submissive women more attractive? 

Personally, I find dominant men more attractive.  On the whole, I think they are sexier, more intelligent, and have a more balanced nature.  Because of wiiwd, those things that attract me... those things that compliment my nature, are amplified.  Does it mean that I think all dominant men are superior?  That they are all sexier, more intelligent and more balanced?  Oh, hell no.  Nor does it mean that I think "vanilla" men do not possess those qualities, either.

But, I think I can safely say that I stand a better chance of finding men who attract me on a lifestyle site, versus taking the chance of just accidentally coming upon one out in the "vanilla" world.

*laughs*  Well, I did.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/26/2006 4:25:18 PM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		{Fast reply to the OP}

Getting in on this a little late but, IMO, making judgements about people's intelligence and/or emotional/psychological health based on information gleaned on the internet (profiles, posts, etc) is likely to yield really inaccurate results. Over the years I've had the opportunity to get to know people in person who also have profiles on sites such as this one and the ones that are truly loopy in real life sound remarkably sane in their profiles. They're intelligent enough to know what people want to hear in profiles and the medium allows them to filter out the loopiness (ie they can edit and refine). When you get to know them in person you see how they behave in real time and realize that when they don't have the ability to filter their loopiness it shines through in spades. Yet I take a look at their profiles and think 'wow, they sound remarkably sane.'

I tend to agree with LA's first post insofar as femsubs go.

(in reply to losttreasure)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/26/2006 4:38:05 PM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline 		~~ Fast reply ~~

Based on my own personal and real life friendships and casual encounters, I have to agree that yes, submissives/slaves/Dominants/Masters all seem more beautiful and intelligent to me. They seem to project an air of confidence, and self-awareness that is just plain SEXY as hell.

Now that is not to say that there are not others out there that I have never met who are not within the lifestyle who do not possess that same quality; only that those whom I have come across seem to lack that in themselves.

Of course, it could also have alot to do with how I react to someone; it may color my perception of them.

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Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
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Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to MsIncognito)
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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/26/2006 5:21:53 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You don't see the same people coming forth to declare to the OP, "you've just only found ugly (fat, insecure, old, stupid or any other derrogatory adjective) submissives so you're just projecting your disappointment on the rest of the submissives here".



Actually... I find the whole... beauty and ugly issue to be highly subjective and a debate of little value. 

Beauty is in the Eye of the beholder.  I am sure some think you are indeed a Treasure... FirmhandKY sure does... however.... as much as a Treasure to some you maybe.. you not to all that is.  AND isn't that a nice way for things to be too.  I know a few that think I am rather um.. interesting (avoiding the word Hot here)..... but then many more I would say think I am just a dick with an asshole.

I am fine with each individual having their own preferences... however, I find it just silly when one wishes to label groups of individuals as more beauty or ugly or intelligent or stupid or sane or insane  just because of particular group they happen to be associated with. 

You know whole collection of labeled groups that have been faced with this depth of prejudice... and yes most time such prejudice is negative and ugly with the labels that are used.  But, just because one wishes to dressup the prejudices into flowery comments such as beauty, intelligent and mentally healthy.... doesn't make the it look any prettier for me. 

I choose to judge individuals on their own merits based on my own standards.... their association to a group doesn't make all flowers in my books... many may just be weeds.

The other aspect to consider... if lifestyle femalesub are to be more beautiful, intelligent and mentally healthy as a group compared to the vanilla folk... well what does that say for the other group.  Are we not saying they are less beautiful, less intelligent and less mentally healthy.  Well... I know alot of so called female vanilla folk... and dang it all they are some of the most beautiful, intelligent and mentally healthy people I know.   Judgement of people based on group identification is just short sighted at best and prejudice at it's worse.



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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/26/2006 6:00:50 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		KnightsofMists,

Not to make too fine a point of it, what I'm really doing in the "Beautiful subs" thread is poking my finger in the eyes of those doms who whine, bitch and moan about all the "low class" subs.

In reality, I have no great feelings or beliefs one way or the other, but wanted to:

1.  Counter the all-to-common view that all subs are "fat, ugly, etc".
2.  See what reaction (if any) came from some of the dom's who make those kind of complaints.

For these reasons, it has been an entertaining experience, and intellectually interesting in formulating arguments in support of a positions that I don't necessarily support.  And while your comments are basically on-target in a wider sense, like most, they do not directly address my logical arguments, either.

I'm also considering "Why aren't there more fakes here?" and "Help! I'm a new Dom and can't handle all the emails from female subs!" threads. 

Considering, anyway.

FirmKY


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/26/2006 8:37:06 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

And while your comments are basically on-target in a wider sense, like most, they do not directly address my logical arguments, either.



you actually have to make a logical arguement first... for anyone to comment on it.....

You just made the flip side comment of the ugly sub BS... ... different side of the coin... but it's still BS.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/26/2006 9:14:05 PM   
QuietDom


Posts: 255
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

2. Unless you are going to conduct the study correctly (and, read more carefully any results you might get then you did these postings) and publish the methodology as well as the results there would be no point conducting such, as it would (*still*) be unprovable tripe.
 


I can set down my intended methodology right now.  It's elegant in its simplicity.
  1. I put out the call for beautiful, intelligent, well-adjusted femsubs to participate in the study, as given above.
  2. A number of such subs arrive.
  3. The study phase keeps being extended, for increasingly implausible reasons.
  4. I never actually complete the study.
  5. I die old, happy, and surrounded by beautiful, intelligent, well-adjusted femsubs.

Despite the obvious deficiencies in this methodology -- primarily its lack of controls, lack of recording protocols, lack of analysis and ultimately lack of conclusions -- I suspect that other researchers will be eager to peer-review my work... by attempting an independant replication.

Any further concerns?

QD

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 12:33:17 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

you actually have to make a logical arguement first... for anyone to comment on it.....



See my post 45.  I made at least two.

Do not confuse my use of the term "logical argument" to be equal to "correct argument". 

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

You just made the flip side comment of the ugly sub BS... ... different side of the coin... but it's still BS.


Agreed.  And very few picked up on that.

FirmKY


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Some people are just idiots.

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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 5:37:05 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Agreed.  And very few picked up on that.

FirmKY



There is a world of difference between understanding and reading a thread versus commenting on it. 

To suggest that because people did not respond to this thread because they failed to appreciate the intellectual subtlety of your argument is as ridiculous and self-absorbed as Monkeyboy's administrations claim that "absence of evidence supporting WMDs in Iraq is not evidence of absence of WMDs in Iraq."

Which is why I made the comment about Dan Aykroyd.  In that Point - Counter-Point since the OP would be playing the part played by Jane Curtin.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 5:53:09 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

you actually have to make a logical arguement first... for anyone to comment on it.....



See my post 45.  I made at least two.

Do not confuse my use of the term "logical argument" to be equal to "correct argument". 




What I see is a post on beliefs, assumptions and conjecture.... not a basis of a logical argument.... seems you miss expressing the logic to your arguement..... but I will agree it is an arguement that you present... just not a logical one.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 6:07:18 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

What I see is a post on beliefs, assumptions and conjecture.... not a basis of a logical argument.... seems you miss expressing the logic to your arguement..... but I will agree it is an arguement that you present... just not a logical one.


Logical argument: 

In logic, an argument is an attempt to demonstrate the truth of an assertion called a conclusion, based on the truth of a set of assertions called premises.

The discipline of logic: 

Human life is full of decisions, including significant choices about what to believe. Although everyone prefers to believe what is true, we often disagree with each other about what that is in particular instances. It may be that some of our most fundamental convictions in life are acquired by haphazard means rather than by the use of reason, but we all recognize that our beliefs about ourselves and the world often hang together in important ways.

If I believe that whales are mammals and that all mammals are fish, then it would also make sense for me to believe that whales are fish. Even someone who (rightly!) disagreed with my understanding of biological taxonomy could appreciate the consistent, reasonable way in which I used my mistaken beliefs as the foundation upon which to establish a new one. On the other hand, if I decide to believe that Hamlet was Danish because I believe that Hamlet was a character in a play by Shaw and that some Danes are Shavian characters, then even someone who shares my belief in the result could point out that I haven't actually provided good reasons for accepting its truth.

In general, we can respect the directness of a path even when we don't accept the points at which it begins and ends. Thus, it is possible to distinguish correct reasoning from incorrect reasoning independently of our agreement on substantive matters. Logic is the discipline that studies this distinction—both by determining the conditions under which the truth of certain beliefs leads naturally to the truth of some other belief, and by drawing attention to the ways in which we may be led to believe something without respect for its truth. This provides no guarantee that we will always arrive at the truth, since the beliefs with which we begin are sometimes in error.

Argue with my premises.  Argue with my conclusions.  But I do not accept that what I've presented isn't a "logical argument".

FirmKY



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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 6:19:57 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		1. No one could ever have a large enough sample group to statistically support such a claim.
 
or ...
 
2. Everyone is an individual, and even heavy statistics would be meaningless.

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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 6:24:25 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

What I see is a post on beliefs, assumptions and conjecture.... not a basis of a logical argument.... seems you miss expressing the logic to your arguement..... but I will agree it is an arguement that you present... just not a logical one.


Logical argument: 


In logic, an argument is an attempt to demonstrate the truth of an assertion called a conclusion, based on the truth of a set of assertions called premises.




Argue with my premises.  Argue with my conclusions.  But I do not accept that what I've presented isn't a "logical argument".

FirmKY




Accept or not accept it means little to me... but a Logical argument is more than assumptions, beliefs and conjecture.  It is an Attempt to "Demonstrate" the "Truth" an "Assertion".

Please provide some Demonstrations to this assertion... instead of just providing Assumptions, Beliefs and simple Conjecture.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 6:39:50 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

There is a world of difference between understanding and reading a thread versus commenting on it. 


As you have so aptly demonstrated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

To suggest that because people did not respond to this thread because they failed to appreciate the intellectual subtlety of your argument is as ridiculous and self-absorbed as Monkeyboy's administrations claim that "absence of evidence supporting WMDs in Iraq is not evidence of absence of WMDs in Iraq."



As you so often say Sinergy, in one form or another:  "your emotional state is not my concern, nor my responsibility".  Your "intellectual subtlety" is something that I've obviously failed to grasp on many an occasion.  I have no doubt that I'll continue to be unable to distinguish your subtlety from snobbery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Which is why I made the comment about Dan Aykroyd.  In that Point - Counter-Point since the OP would be playing the part played by Jane Curtin.


Yes, I understood the first time that you were calling me an ignorant slut.  I just choose to ignore the insult. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy


Yes.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 11/27/2006 7:00:57 AM >

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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 6:44:48 AM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

But when it comes to threads where the topic is denigrating toward submissives, similarly opinionated and subjective ideas are not challenged as much.  You don't see the same people coming forth to declare to the OP, "you've just only found ugly (fat, insecure, old, stupid or any other derrogatory adjective) submissives so you're just projecting your disappointment on the rest of the submissives here".


I challenge the things which are silly and without basis and stated as fact. I notivce things which are stated differently, slightly skewed and/or complete absolutes.
 
Saying that "No one protects the poor submissive when they are slammed" is silly... people always take the bait (especially when it is someone whining about themselves - although, then they will be equally called an 'attention whore').
 
~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 6:49:36 AM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietDom

I can set down my intended methodology right now.  It's elegant in its simplicity.
  1. I put out the call for beautiful, intelligent, well-adjusted femsubs to participate in the study, as given above.
  2. A number of such subs arrive.
  3. The study phase keeps being extended, for increasingly implausible reasons.
  4. I never actually complete the study.
  5. I die old, happy, and surrounded by beautiful, intelligent, well-adjusted femsubs.


Despite the obvious deficiencies in this methodology -- primarily its lack of controls, lack of recording protocols, lack of analysis and ultimately lack of conclusions -- I suspect that other researchers will be eager to peer-review my work... by attempting an independant replication.

Any further concerns?

QD


Yes -
 
I would be willing to conduct the field research for the study... and, to assure my contemporaries of the requisite non-bias - I am willing to do what it takes with each respondent to ensure that they are treated in the same impartial manner.
 
~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to QuietDom)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 6:57:11 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Accept or not accept it means little to me... but a Logical argument is more than assumptions, beliefs and conjecture.  It is an Attempt to "Demonstrate" the "Truth" an "Assertion".

Please provide some Demonstrations to this assertion... instead of just providing Assumptions, Beliefs and simple Conjecture.


KnightsofMyst,

I have a great respect for you, and usually look forward to reading your post.  I generally find them illuminating and insightful. 

I'm not sure I understand what has gotten your back up on this subject.  I think I've sufficiently explained my thoughts about why I started this thread, and the format of it.

I'll say again, if you wish to debate me in a logical sense on this subject, in this thread, I'm all for it.  If you just wish to say that (from some "higher" point of view) my entire reason for posting and my format is philosophically suspect, then I'll accept that.

However, if you want to get into an argument about what "logical" is, and how it's formated and it's ultimate purposes, I'm not sure that is either a fruitful or helpful or even interesting for this thread.

However, I'd be more than willing to discuss it in another thread or by email.

FirmKY


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Some people are just idiots.

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RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 7:11:00 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

But when it comes to threads where the topic is denigrating toward submissives, similarly opinionated and subjective ideas are not challenged as much.  You don't see the same people coming forth to declare to the OP, "you've just only found ugly (fat, insecure, old, stupid or any other derrogatory adjective) submissives so you're just projecting your disappointment on the rest of the submissives here".


I challenge the things which are silly and without basis and stated as fact. I notivce things which are stated differently, slightly skewed and/or complete absolutes.
 
Saying that "No one protects the poor submissive when they are slammed" is silly... people always take the bait (especially when it is someone whining about themselves - although, then they will be equally called an 'attention whore').
 
~J


"No one protects the poor submissive when they are slammed"...

Yes, I agree that that would be silly.  However, I don't recall saying that.  Reading my comment above, what I do see that I said was, "...similarly opinionated and subjective ideas are not challenged as much."

As much.

Meaning some, but not as many.

"I challenge the things which are silly and without basis and stated as fact. I notivce (sic) things which are stated differently, slightly skewed and/or complete absolutes."

Me, too. 

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Counter-point: Beautiful, well adjusted subs - 11/27/2006 7:30:45 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'm not sure I understand what has gotten your back up on this subject.  I think I've sufficiently explained my thoughts about why I started this thread, and the format of it.



Just as you are annoyed at how individuals come and make silly and even insulting posts of ugly subs... Just as you come and present a flip side of the same coin and find it interesting how individuals only see the covers and not realize the behavior you present is not unlike the individual that express things about ugly subs. 

I find  it equally annoying when anyone comes forward with assumptions, beliefs and conjecture and presents them as some logical argument.   I think we need to call a spade a spade. 

Much you have expressed in this thread I happen to agree with.  However, I find a more direct approach more to be my style yours is obviously more subtle.  But, my agreement is a shared belief and opinion.  There is no logical arguement to support these beliefs.  For these beliefs are simply rooted in our moral character and that in of it self makes the whole exercise subjective.

Even thou a person maybe motivated for emotional or subjective beliefs to make a logical argument.  The beauty of logic is that it becomes removed from the emotional and subjective beliefs of the individual.  It holds alot of creditability when a person can make an logical argument and remove the emotional and subjective beliefs from the equation.  Often, issues of intense emotions can be steered though when we can take out the heat of emotion and out subjective beliefs. 

I find that my own learning and growth is greatest when I am able to put my own emotions and beliefs aside.  To look at the argument logical presented and see the truths of the conclusion.  Many times my own emotions and beliefs have been shifted as a result of this.

This thread and most threads would be served well if there is more logical expression to a conclusion stated.   I have found some individuals here have done that.... and do that, thou none of us are prefect at it.  But, also I find that these threads quickly die when the drama is not swirled around with the thread.  How often have you seen a increasingly interesting thread develop and last on the boards for weeks on end.  How often have you seen a increasingly dramatic thread last on the boards for weeks on end.

I suppose it is the nature of the beast ... these online forums.  We complain we express our distaste for the drama... but yet most seem to get caught in it from time to time.  Your orginally OP... thou I believe moral motivated... is nothing more than positive drama compared to the negative drama.  But, drama none the less.   But, even as I glance through the thread... I do see some negative drama occuring.... despite your desire to avoid it.  It would appear that drama is just drama... or is drama just a place we can allow our own emotional and moral beliefs to run our behaviors... and then the discord of discussion falls to destructive arguments instead of staying on path with the constructive arguments.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 80
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