RE: Showing you are a worthy Master

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cjklyn -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 2:46:41 PM)
back to the OP. "worthy". I'll be honest, I've never thought before about being worthy, or proving my worthiness. Yet I guess from the successful relationships I've had in the past, my subs must have found something "worthy" in me. Assuming they did so, then I'd say that the reasons would be in my approach. I am honest. I don't hide behind a false persona or lies. And I believe I need to earn the trust and respect of a new or potential sub, and don't take that trust and respect for granted. And I care about their needs to. I guess those might be some of the ingredients to my worthinesss....or not!

Rover -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 3:23:34 PM)
Bull, I'm afraid that you have me at a distinct disadvantage, as you have an influential ally and I do not. I've been warned today about disagreeing with Goreans on these forums, and do not care to be moderated. I suppose that everyone is free to come to their own conclusions as to why that would be necessary, but it does seem a bit unfair. Suffice to say that I would have had a difficult time anyway, as your post was nothing short of a lengthy fillibuster devoid of any substance. Though I was impressed with how much power you seem to feel that I have over you, and the conversation. Frankly, I do not consider myself to be nearly as important as you make me out to be. You're welcome in my community any time you find yourself in the Western Pennsylvania area. We'd enjoy having an out of town speaker, but you'll have to be a bit more patient as a teacher. Perhaps one day you and your local community will return the invitation. John

LaTigresse -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 3:30:37 PM)
Oh John, anytime you want to come to Iowa (for what it's worth) I will happily welcome you. Unfortunately I have yet to find any sort of local community, at least of of this sort. It is rather tragic that one cannot always ask a question and get an answer to that question. Oh well, I guess our age of enlightenment will just have to wait.

Rover -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 4:44:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fyreredsub Greetings Master Bull, This one joins in at the end of the words on your post ...she hopes her intrusion into the words of two Free men are forgiven. However, she is very familiar with Rover's thinking we real time Goreans are ...she believes the term was....chasing unicorns???? BTW, long time no see Rover, good to see you around ....this one found her pot of Gold at the end of the rainbow[:)] she goes back to her corner now and shushes May she wish the Free and slaves well Congratulations to you, and best wishes for your continued happiness. :) John

Rover -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 4:59:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KCKitty I hope you'll pardon my "butting in", but I can see both points that are trying to be made here. If I may? It isn't so hard to understand if you look at it using different terms. Using an altered version of John's description above, let's see if this makes any more sense? In marriage a wedding ring is a representation, a symbol, devoid of any inherent "powers". Whereas to those who subscribe to the idea of matrimony, the wedding ring is imbued with the ability to transform a single woman into a wife. That does, however, lead to another series of questions as to whether the power in a marriage resides in the wedding ring or the official performing the ceremony, and whether those who marry believe in a certain amount of "mysticism" in which the wedding ring has magical qualities. Does that help? In case you don't see the analogy, before agreeing to marry (become a slave) a single woman (a free woman) has the freedom to make the decision and choose who to marry. Once the marriage has taken place and she has her wedding ring (collar), it isn't that she is no longer a woman or incapable of judging her mate, it's just that she is now a wife (slave) and has made vows. The deed is done and the time for judging is over. Her wedding ring (collar) does not change who she is, but it does symbolize her commitment. You're not "butting in", and thanks for your sincere contribution to the thread. To which I note the following: 1. I understand and appreciate your use of the words "slave" and "wife" as descriptive terms. And I might agree with you if it were not for the inconsistency in application. That is, a wedding makes a woman into a wife, and makes a man into a husband. But there is no similar correlation in Gor, in which a Master is a Master no matter if he has a slave or not. 2. It is illogical in the extreme to say that a Master is inherently a Master (ie: it is what he "is" not what he is "made"), but a slave is only made a slave by being owned. I can understand a philosophy that favors "nature" in the "nature vs. nurture" debate, or the "nurture" side in the same debate. However, I cannot begin to comprehend a philosophy that favors both "nature" (for Masters) and "nurture" (for slaves). How can anyone logically take both sides in a debate (well, other than John Kerry)? 3. We all have "beliefs" that are unable to be substantiated by fact or logic. In truth, they are often illogical and nonsensical (that's no knock against anyone, since it's true of us all). However, some people have difficulty accepting that we choose to believe in the illogical and nonsensical, and go to great lengths to fabricate logic and facts to suit in hopes of "proving" their belief. Not only does that fail in each and every instance, but it makes the purveyor look silly in the process. It takes a big man to simply state the truth.... it makes no sense, it's illogical, it has no foundation in fact, but I choose to believe it anyway. I have the same deep belief system in my religion. Anyway, that's my opinion. What say you? John

Jahnaca -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 6:34:25 PM)
Greetings John Perhaps this will help you understand the different prospective of Goreans: 1) The correct term is actually a Gorean man. Gorean free men are called master by slaves, they are not masters until they actually own slaves. If they no longer own slaves they are no longer masters but they always remain Gorean men. I know you hear Goreans call themselves master this and that and what ever, they don't understand the basic detail of being a Gorean man has nothing to do with slave ownership. Period. It has always been a grave disservice to the Gorean community by using master as we do, for that does always leave a very wrong impression about what we are to begin with. Then we cry foul with someone like you only makes the appropriate assumption based on the terms we use. 2) If the above statement re master rings true there is no discrepancy involved is there. Some Gorean men are piss poor masters, some are great at it. It doesn't make a hill of beans in who he is, a Gorean man to begin with. Therefore the logical stance is really, if woman A begs ownership of Gorean man B and he accepts, we have created by label a master and slave. Just like a wedding ring creates a husband and wife. When we discuss inherent abilities we are actually discussing males and females and traits such as dominance and submission. Goreans do not believe that submission alone creates a slaves, it only makes her more likely to seek out and obtain slavery. In turn just being a Gorean man doesn't mean your going to be master of slaves, it means you may be more likely because you may express a more dominant attitude and personality trait to do be one. One does not need to be part of an master slave relationship to be a Gorean male or female, dominant and or submissive (words used in context of alpha and beta not dom and sub.) 3) Isn't that the truth lol. Unfortunately for Goreans again some do tend to resort to some really weird and out dated thinking that fails the litmus tests of time, space and reality when push goes to shove. Just because a Philosopher by the name of John (Norman) Lange stated something doesn't make it cutting age fact. Though many are afraid to actually test these concepts because they might not turn out exactly the way they planned on it. Most this is the case for those who see dominance and submission as only a linear concept of master and slave/ male and female. Not all Goreans are using that thinking at all. Some of us are actually diving in far deeper, thank goodness and coming up with some pretty good arguments that should be tested by public scrutiny. In the end John, it is not about what is right for all, if you have received that impression from Goreans in the past, I do apologize. For Goreans it is what is truth for us, if you find truth in it as well, welcome aboard, if not, no harm no foul. I wish you well Jahna

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 7:21:39 PM)
1) Misunderstanding has brought you to this conclusion. Some may not express themselves very well or are like me and don't wish to spare the time, when it can be learned on your own. 2) I follow the Gorean Philosophies and believe the term Master has two meanings just as slave does. Literally a slave must be owned to be a slave, other wise if they are unowned they have a slave heart and not a literal slave. A Master is only a literal Master if they own a slave. Someone may follow the Gorean philosophies and never own a slave. Nature and nurture combine to make us what we are. Those things that are caused by nurture may be reversed or changed, I do not believe that nature can be changed, only covered up for a short while. 3) There are some things I have seen logic and science unable to explain but it still exists. Beliefs are much like this. Often when someone is pounding on the "prove it with facts and science" drum, I will think of Love. When beliefs are questioned, is when I have seen most people get defensive and offensive, just as I have seen here. When people do not understand they often do not trust or dismiss things, as I have seen here as well. Rover, just so we have a few things up front if I decide to continue to converse with you, I will state the following: I come from the BDSM side prior to learning of the Gorean Philosophies. Before everything I am a Man first, not just a Gorean. My use of the word Gorean usually means those that follow the philosophies, the lifestyle or both (yes there are big differences between them). You will find many differing opinions on many things among us Goreans, but there are some we all agree on. I will take you on your word for now but as an observer to the debate, your style of posting does seem slightly passive aggressive in insults and that smacks of deceit to me, but I use the word seems and will wait until I have seen more of your posts to make my own judgement. At this moment I consider you a stranger, but that may change as time goes by (those that are familiar with the Gorean use will know what I mean). If you truly wish to understand Goreans more then come to the Gorean boards and ask sincere questions. Orion Master of the dontgiveafuck Inner Council

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 7:26:37 PM)
Tal Jahna, You put it so well and I may just be one voice but you do a credit to the entire Gorean community when you post. My disagreements with some of your points are so minor as not to be worth discussion here, especially since my thoughts and beliefs are in transition on some of them. Reconciling one's foundation is a long process full of introspection but I digress. It seems that you and I are both committing blasphemy by questioning some of Norman's assertions so we need to watch out for the axeman ;). Orion

Rover -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/11/2006 7:46:30 PM)
Thanks for your contribution to my understanding, Jahnaca. 1. The difference between "Gorean man" and "Gorean Master" as you've expressed it is completely new to me, though I do not profess to be learned in Gor. Please don't misunderstand when I ask whether this opinion is shared by the majority of Goreans (again, I profess my ignorance) as it is has not been expressed to me in such straightforward and simple terms in prior discussions (which begs the question as to why not). 2. The explanation, as given, eliminates the obvious contradiction to the Gorean question of "nature vs. nurture". Neither the terms "Master" or "slave" are indicative of any inherent state of being, but are (evidently) used strictly to denote the (current) existence of an M/s relationship. That is clear, concise, and easy to understand. Again, a pity that such explanation was so difficult to obtain. 3. Weird thinking is not relegated to Goreans. There is plenty of it to go around. :) I am impressed (and I do not impress easily) that you advocate the test of philosphy via public scrutiny. I have never found much value in philosophy whose continued existence necessitates public isolation or protection from the test of logic and sense. Worse yet are those that profess a philosophy, yet cannot understand what it is they profess. It's interesting that my observations of Goreans has not been so one-sided, in that they always express what is right for everyone. In fact, much like the issues noted above, they have seemed rather conflicted over most topics, often vascillating between what is right for everyone, and a rugged individuality. It's even evident in discussions amongst themselves, in which there seems little agreement over such basics as what "is" Gorean. I'm not sure if that is a natural conflict between a philosophy of rigid societal expectations, and the human spirit that yearns to be free, in ways beyond that described by "Master" or "slave". Or if it is simply a philosophy in conflict between the theoretical and practical. If there were more folks like yourself, who would be willing to cast aside personal self promotion in order to engender understanding, I (and perhaps a good many others) would understand considerably more. John

Mavis -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 12:33:36 AM)
ok, the line where one goes from free to slave in this.. it isn't so different from a gal friend i knew... she was living with this guy for 9 years. one day, they up and got married. She came back to work all aglow. He was the exact same man, and she was the exact same woman, but she said she woke up different. She "felt" different. she was "a wife" instead of a live-in. That difference in semantics made a concrete difference to her. The label had changed, but with it, something in her internal workings shifted. (her guy was till an ass as far as i was concerned, but he was her prince charming, and can ya argue with the happy?)

adaddysgirl -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 7:11:50 AM)
Jahna, i for one really appreciate the clear and simplistic way you distinguished between a Gor man and a Master. This makes absolute sense to me. Thank you! [:)] i still struggle with figuring out what a Master is on 'this side' because so many self impose the title that it's hard to tell who is who...or what it even means anymore. i also now have better clarity on what makes a free woman into a slave (in your dynamic). But what i am wondering now is....what is the difference between a slave and a kajira? (if there is one) i hope you don't mind the question and i don't mean to get off topic here, but since the difference in titles has been brought up, i just thought i'd throw it in there real quick [&:] Daddysgirl

KatyLied -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 8:26:06 AM)
quote: the label had changed, but with it, something in her internal workings shifted. (her guy was till an ass as far as i was concerned, but he was her prince charming, and can ya argue with the happy?) I think that part of what may have changed was the fact that she was now an equal partner, legally. Being a wife bestows benefits of a legal nature that no collar can. For some people this is important, for others not. Many people toss around collars freely, they aren't so free with the idea of marriage and a legally binding commitment. Just something to consider.

SirDominic -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 8:46:37 AM)
Good grief, I left this thread for a few days and it has turned into a Gorean slugfest. No disrespect to the Gorean or any other lifestyle, but this thread is supposed to be about how one shows they are a Dominant. Any chance we could get back to that subject? If you want to debate the merits of the Gorean lifestyle, there is a forum for that. I wrote a week ago: If you have to SHOW you are a Dom, you aren't. If you ARE a Dom, just being yourself is enough. It's not how many toys you have, or even level of experience with various BDSM kinks. If you are a Dom, truly, no-one can mistake it. It is the inner confidence that naturally radiates, the way you walk, the way you look at people, the way you speak to them. There is the sense that you are in control, in control of yourself, and perfecty capable of controlling others. You don't prove your worth with words, but with actions. toservez said: You cannot show you are a worthy Master you can only convey that you understand what a worthy Master is. To show you are a worthy Master is real life actions day to day with someone you form a relationship with. Others have said similar things. Can we say we have a concensus that if you have to try to show you are a Dominant, you simply are not?

AquaticSub -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 9:01:42 AM)
~Fast Reply~ While I am not a slave, I know I would be my dominant's slave if he so desired. So I'm putting my two little cents in. I began dating my dominant in a very vanilla context. He was (and still is) my boyfriend. I already knew I was a submissive, explained it to him and what I would want sexually from him. He was very interested and most happy to deliver and it quickly became a situation where I wasn't just a submissive, I was submitting to him. I became his submissive and him my dominant later in the relationship though, after a long talk. Now I know, after thinking about it and having a discussion with another couple on this site, that if he desired I would be his slave. How has he show himself to be "worthy" in my little eyes? He loves me. He loves me, cherishs me as his most precious thing and protects me. He provides for me as best he can and I do everything I can to make him happy. There is nothing else I need but I know that if those things were not there, I could not be his slave.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 9:18:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Bull, I'm afraid that you have me at a distinct disadvantage, as you have an influential ally and I do not. I've been warned today about disagreeing with Goreans on these forums, and do not care to be moderated. I suppose that everyone is free to come to their own conclusions as to why that would be necessary, but it does seem a bit unfair. Disagreeing with Goreans (or femdoms, or gay male submissives, or transgendered switches who bottom to lesbian daddies on alternate Wednesdays) is fine. Bashing or invalidating Goreans (or any of those other subgroups) is not. I disagree with Goreans plenty, and will state flat out that I think a big chunk of their belief system about how men and women are "supposed" to relate according to the "natural order" is based in bad science and outdated/inaccurate science. But I also have respect for the individuals who live their lives according to principles of honor and a philosophy that works sustainably for them - no matter what those principles and philosophies are. So it's possible to disagree while not bashing or invalidating what works for them, just because it's not what I believe and it's not what works for me.

Kalira -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 9:20:54 AM)
quote: what is the difference between a slave and a kajira? (if there is one) In terms of just the word, none. kajiira is Gorean for slave In terms of actual philosophy, there is a huge difference between us ( on this side ), and a kajiira. As to the actual differences, I could not tell you most since I do not lay claim to being Gorean.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 9:38:40 AM)
I agree. It should also be noted that some may find you worthy and some may not. I touched on this in my response. Each person will use their own judgement system to assign value and worthiness to every individual they meet, even if the determination is apathy or non-interest. Stay true to yourself, have a good foundation of your own morales, ethics and code, portray honesty and stop trying to impress people. In all of this have confidence and I believe that most will find things they like. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic Good grief, I left this thread for a few days and it has turned into a Gorean slugfest. No disrespect to the Gorean or any other lifestyle, but this thread is supposed to be about how one shows they are a Dominant. Any chance we could get back to that subject? If you want to debate the merits of the Gorean lifestyle, there is a forum for that. I wrote a week ago: If you have to SHOW you are a Dom, you aren't. If you ARE a Dom, just being yourself is enough. It's not how many toys you have, or even level of experience with various BDSM kinks. If you are a Dom, truly, no-one can mistake it. It is the inner confidence that naturally radiates, the way you walk, the way you look at people, the way you speak to them. There is the sense that you are in control, in control of yourself, and perfecty capable of controlling others. You don't prove your worth with words, but with actions. toservez said: You cannot show you are a worthy Master you can only convey that you understand what a worthy Master is. To show you are a worthy Master is real life actions day to day with someone you form a relationship with. Others have said similar things. Can we say we have a concensus that if you have to try to show you are a Dominant, you simply are not?

adaddysgirl -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 9:39:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalira In terms of just the word, none. kajiira is Gorean for slave In terms of actual philosophy, there is a huge difference between us ( on this side ), and a kajiira. As to the actual differences, I could not tell you most since I do not lay claim to being Gorean. Ahhh, thanks Kalira. i have heard the term kajira, and kajira in training....but since that wasn't mentioned in the post by Jahna, i wasn't sure if it was a different 'status' so to speak. So thanks for the answer [&:] DG

starshineowned -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 10:07:39 AM)
quote: It is rather tragic that one cannot always ask a question and get an answer to that question. Oh well, I guess our age of enlightenment will just have to wait. It is far worse though to ask a question..get a answer, and be so blind as to not see it for what it is because in reality you were never looking for it to begin with. :) Yes another that is quite wise to Rover Sir and his long hiatus from the Gorean boards. In all fairness though..both sides presented some very good points and arguements at times and it was even thought provoking back then. Unfortunately most of the points or arguements didn't ever strike me as being inherent to the Gorean fiction books or BDSM even though aspects, thoughts, views that both use are part of my makeup, but were well before I knew anything about either of them. This probably is why it has lead me to a point of not understanding how any of these things can be things solely to one side of the fence or the other to begin with. Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin

LaTigresse -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 11:07:36 AM)
In truth there were several questions asked that I was very interested in the answers. Those answers never did come. All I saw was a bunch of mumbo jumbo male posturing, half of it in some weird fairy tale speak. Obviously I don't do fairy tale speak. If the answers were somehow cloaked in this mysterious language then it is the fault of the presenter of the answer. Their inability to present a concept in a clear precise manner, in the language the question was asked. And no, I am not going to end my point of view with an icky fakey little passive agressive cyber smile.

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