RE: Showing you are a worthy Master

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Jahnaca -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 12:02:19 PM)
Greetings John In the defense of many Goreans, not everyone is on the same level of understanding. It is very difficult to put into words concepts that are still kinda fuzzy to you. While many do a valiant effort in trying, they don't always succeed in the manner I think they really want to. Then you have those who stopped their growth at me big ugh master and you petty wench get me wine. It is sadly their loss that they failed to grow past the kinky stuff, and our issue when they go out and display themselves as great Gorean experts. It is something though that many of us are trying to over come, one person at a time. To those who received some clarity regarding the murky water of master in Gorean context, I am delighted to be of some help. I sincerely hope that it is one step closer to at the very least a semi understanding of why we are different. I would like to offer something also to the OP, I know this comes from a Gorean perspective but I truly think it has application here. By being yourself, respecting yourself to want only the best for you in a relationship, by never lowering your own bar and by being your own man, women will flock to you. At least those who truly want to be with one like you, a man of inner strength and conviction. Part of being a master is about mastering self first, therefore it is very much an internal conviction towards a goal that one can not help but convey with his attitudes and actions. This to me has more value then long lists of credentials that in the end are rather meaningless. Orion, how about you take the left, I'll take the right and maybe we can avoid that axeman, I heard he can be rather painful. LOL Jahna

starshineowned -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 12:22:33 PM)
Well I don't advocate the use of known fictional terms either but I don't have any difficulty brushing that aside to see what is being said. It is highly doubtful outside of the alternative realm that many at all go around while out in public calling themselves Master, Mistress, boy or any slang or references used from the bdsm culture or even remotely feeling a need to converse with their neighbor or fellow pig farmer about anything other than maybe their lawns, the weather, or price of pigs that week. Can't say as I see any Male posturing either but just people viewing things differently based on their own perspectives and opinions to living life in a different way that has no rulebooks for any of us. I certainly don't agree with alot of people on alot of things no matter what they are calling themselves or claim rightful ownership to as being the right or wrong way. I present my version and think for the most part why or even add that I don't have a clue why..I just do. Pretty much like everyone else here. You want to get real technical about any of this? All of us are living in fairy land with fairy speak that have any link to what is considered Alternative. Just go ask any straight what they think about it. Make any reference to being a Dominant woman or man outside of just your personality (i.e. as in owning or ruling over another in a lifestyle way), and see just how many dump you immediately into the freak, lost your marbles, need psychotherapy, mental issue's category. Not to mention the immediate link to porno, pedo, unmentionable molesters or any other such bs they can think of. quote: And no, I am not going to end my point of view with an icky fakey little passive agressive cyber smile The fact that I found something worse to relay than what you did, and expressed that..does not equal passive-aggressive. First you've have to be someone that I felt a need to be passive or aggressive with, and well that is not the case Ma'am. My smile is not icky nor fake. I smile pretty much all the time. Might even be linked to why my sign off says Happy slave of Master Delvin. Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin

Rover -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 5:13:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jahnaca Greetings John In the defense of many Goreans, not everyone is on the same level of understanding. It is very difficult to put into words concepts that are still kinda fuzzy to you. While many do a valiant effort in trying, they don't always succeed in the manner I think they really want to. Then you have those who stopped their growth at me big ugh master and you petty wench get me wine. It is sadly their loss that they failed to grow past the kinky stuff, and our issue when they go out and display themselves as great Gorean experts. It is something though that many of us are trying to over come, one person at a time. This isn't specific to any particular lifestyle, but often relevant to discussions on these boards: The worst thing about the ignorant, is that they aren't aware of what they don't know. Of course, that does not prevent them from speaking as if they do, and from lashing out when asked to substantiate what is said. Many thanks to your concise and coherent explanation. I do hope that you continue to participate, as it will be considerably easier to get straight answers absent all the anger and posturing. John

LordODiscipline -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 7:06:11 PM)
That is assuming that because one states that they have "honor" that they do - and, that because someone states that they adhere to a (any) philosophy they do. People are people... dealing with them as a stereotypical group is always wrong... especially where specious concepts of morality are not agreed on and/or defined with the exception of subjective attributes like "honor" I know Goreans that are 'lieing sacks of dung' I would not trust to take out the garbage and are generally the most verbal about their alleged honor - and- others who quiet intelligent good friends... Wholesale painting of any group as "honorable" is less than poor science - it is poor reasoning. ~J *edited to add: I meant to compliment you on your postings... this issue is the one exception to an otherwise well thought out rationale.* quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer But I also have respect for the individuals who live their lives according to principles of honor and a philosophy that works sustainably for them - no matter what those principles and philosophies are.

LordODiscipline -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/12/2006 7:12:27 PM)
Outstanding... ....a complete answer. Rational and well versed. Thank you, sincerely. ~J quote: ORIGINAL: Jahnaca Greetings John Perhaps this will help you understand the different prospective of Goreans: 1) The correct term is actually a Gorean man. Gorean free men are called master by slaves, they are not masters until they actually own slaves. If they no longer own slaves they are no longer masters but they always remain Gorean men. I know you hear Goreans call themselves master this and that and what ever, they don't understand the basic detail of being a Gorean man has nothing to do with slave ownership. Period. It has always been a grave disservice to the Gorean community by using master as we do, for that does always leave a very wrong impression about what we are to begin with. Then we cry foul with someone like you only makes the appropriate assumption based on the terms we use. 2) If the above statement re master rings true there is no discrepancy involved is there. Some Gorean men are piss poor masters, some are great at it. It doesn't make a hill of beans in who he is, a Gorean man to begin with. Therefore the logical stance is really, if woman A begs ownership of Gorean man B and he accepts, we have created by label a master and slave. Just like a wedding ring creates a husband and wife. When we discuss inherent abilities we are actually discussing males and females and traits such as dominance and submission. Goreans do not believe that submission alone creates a slaves, it only makes her more likely to seek out and obtain slavery. In turn just being a Gorean man doesn't mean your going to be master of slaves, it means you may be more likely because you may express a more dominant attitude and personality trait to do be one. One does not need to be part of an master slave relationship to be a Gorean male or female, dominant and or submissive (words used in context of alpha and beta not dom and sub.) 3) Isn't that the truth lol. Unfortunately for Goreans again some do tend to resort to some really weird and out dated thinking that fails the litmus tests of time, space and reality when push goes to shove. Just because a Philosopher by the name of John (Norman) Lange stated something doesn't make it cutting age fact. Though many are afraid to actually test these concepts because they might not turn out exactly the way they planned on it. Most this is the case for those who see dominance and submission as only a linear concept of master and slave/ male and female. Not all Goreans are using that thinking at all. Some of us are actually diving in far deeper, thank goodness and coming up with some pretty good arguments that should be tested by public scrutiny. In the end John, it is not about what is right for all, if you have received that impression from Goreans in the past, I do apologize. For Goreans it is what is truth for us, if you find truth in it as well, welcome aboard, if not, no harm no foul. I wish you well Jahna

Altina -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/13/2006 8:00:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sirseeksslave In my eyes, it is more about being a worthy Master as this will attract a worthy slave -- my question is how does one show a slave he is worthy of owning them? I am of the opinion that it is not his place to show his worthiness; it is my place to show that I am worthy to wear his collar. Just my own opinion though.

WillowRain -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/13/2006 11:50:55 AM)
Well, I am from the same community and from what the gentleman said I would assume he was talking about the way he lives and presents himself to the community. The gentleman in question is active in the community, freindly, helpful when others have questions. He and his lovely and charming girl Elegant make beautiful toys and have a warmth and affection between them that is easy to see. This past weekend I watched him flick clothes pins off a delightfully serene woman, who held herself with delicious grace, in an inpromto demo. I have NEVER heard anything bad spoken about him by anyone in the community and the submissive grapevine here in the south is quite alive and happy. And even better than that, Elegant positively glows when she talks about him, or looks at him, and that just speaks volumes that words never could. I think those are more the type of things he was talking about. But... that's just my perspective. :) quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I understand what you meant by this because of what you went on to say, and I agree with that, but there is a different "If you build it they will come" approach that I DON'T think works. I'm talking about the men who think they have to build a beacon tower to make themselves attractive to females, so they end up doing all kinds of artificial things that don't reflect who they really are, but reflect what they think females want to see in a man. That can range from buying fancy cars to adopting a public persona that doesn't reflect their true character. (It's also amply attested behavior in mammals from top to bottom.) Those men don't do too well in the long run because women soon discover that they're not with the man they thought they were falling in love with. quote: ORIGINAL: Archer "If you build it they will come"

Maahsatti -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 7:38:03 AM)
Ok, I just want to dash in here and drop my 2 cents in the pot. I have read a lot of this notion, that Goreans feel we are misunderstood and not taken seriously and it deeply offends us. FYI, Goreans, the ones who (arent) silly role players, really do not give a fig what others think of us..LOL..we need no validation to be heard and recognized. You may judge and scorn Goreans as you wish, know as well however, that they judge and scorn you. They fullfill themselves as you do not,Hate them for their pride and power, they will pity you for your shame and weakness. Now, am I saying, that anyone who is not Gorean, is weak?...Heck no, quite the contrary, but in the same requard, know we do not seek out your approvels or acceptances.We live our lives, love our children and families, we work ,play and sleep on earth with everyone else.We give respect when respect is shown and we Honor those who Honor us....I wish all on this board be well and safe, also Happy Holidays......Maahsatti

KatyLied -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 7:42:55 AM)
quote: know as well however, that they judge and scorn you. Yeah, they can judge and scorn us because our kink doesn't come from a novel, that's okay.

sweetnurseBBW -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 7:53:26 AM)
How did this turn into Gor vs BDSM again? I have to agree with katy on that one. anyhow...

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 7:54:35 AM)
Greetings Katylied, Just remember that each time you use a generalization, you validate those that are used back at you. The kink does not come from a novel, it comes from inside people. Also, many Goreans live their lives just as many vanillas do, just with some strong principles that they use everyday. Also, Maahsaati does not speak for all Goreans, just herself, specifically when she speaks of showing pity. I pity no one, especially myself. I find this little war between Goreans and the BDSM lifestylers funny at times. If is works for you, then go for it, as long as it does not hurt me and mine. Maybe I understand both sides better because my background was originally from the BDSM community, until I found that my foundation principles were so different from many in the BDSM lifestyle. Orion "A wise man will say he is not, and a man that says he is wise, is not." quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied quote: know as well however, that they judge and scorn you. Yeah, they can judge and scorn us because our kink doesn't come from a novel, that's okay.

xBullx -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 8:41:32 AM)
Greetings everyone, I want to quickly interject a short, well short for me, post about the cyber tussle my initial post created. First, I was talking to someone not so long ago about me views and this person voiced theirs. Now when it came down to it on that particular topic we were actually quite similar in our views. We discussed the point that it’s do to the assumptions and baseless prejudices that different lifestyles have that instill these disputes. So I thought. I then thought that if I participated in forums outside of the Gorean forum and didn’t try to ram my point of view down someone’s throat perhaps it would create a bit of understanding. And I might make a few friends along the way. I regret that I am not schooled to a large degree in self expression through the written word. Perhaps I can correct that deficiency with a comp lit and English 101 course. I try my best, but quite obviously I have fallen short here, and what has ensued is a plain ass mess, I would ask the Goreans that are trying to defend our position to refrain from an attempt that is now faced with stubborn bias, much the same way we are now looking at their point. I blame myself for this very argument. I should have in having difficulty at first conveying my message either one just deferred to a more competent speak, ask a skilled composer of written words to help or just realized as I was on someone else’s turf simply withdrawn. I failed on several counts. I do not wish for my failure to persist and take what was a valid question and create a complete mess of this or any thread. What I had hoped to do, is in effect creating the complete opposite. I was not up to the task that I had sought out to accomplish and in effect made it worse. I suppose I’m not the first to have tried this and that would most likely explain why we have separate boards. I will still read and maybe even post in any or all threads but I have learned a valuable enough lesson about my limits in this exercise. I would hope that we could all turn back to the valid question that the OP did ask and I assume that I and some others have answered well enough some of our own worthiness to at least some of life’s questions. Again I have no actual power over anyone here, no more than they do I, but I would ask that we stop the bashing or posturing against one another and spend our energies in a more constructive manner. I would hate for the Mods to have to close a thread that has worthy merit. I wish you all well and a most happy holiday season, Bull

LaTigresse -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 8:46:04 AM)
Bull, I am going to say in all sincerity, I am honestly impressed.You have made me rethink my last impression of you.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 9:32:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline That is assuming that because one states that they have "honor" that they do - and, that because someone states that they adhere to a (any) philosophy they do. I AM LORD MASTER EMPEROR BLACKTHORN TEH MIGHTY ELVISH GOREAN NINJA MASTER ASSASSIN. I AM TEH HONERABLE! U CAN TRUST ME! AND SUBMITE 2 ME! IF U SAY I AM NOT TEH HONERABLE THEN I MUST KILL U NOW! I WILL CYBER KILL U WITH MY PLUS THREE GOREAN NINJA WARRIOR SWORD! THEN I WILL HAVE MY HONER! Some people who are not presenting themselves truthfully are perhaps a bit easier to notice (and funnier) than others. [:D] But there will always be folks presenting themselves to others in an untruthful manner that is not congruent to who they are as people and how they live their real lives, whether they are presenting as "morally upright" anti-gay Christian evangelists or as Goreans. quote: Wholesale painting of any group as "honorable" is less than poor science - it is poor reasoning. I thought I was doing an adequate job of pointing out that the majority of people who present as "Gorean" were not particularly trustworthy or honorable, and quite likely to make untruthful claims. Similarly I'd say that in my personal experience, the majority of people who loudly and openly present as "Christian" are either hypocritical liars or sneering, self-righteous bashers or both, and some are outright criminal in their behavior towards people of different lifestyles and belief systems. All this in a religion that supposedly teaches about turning the other cheek and loving your neighbor? Homo sapiens isn't a very nice species, and we aren't, in general, much good at living up to ideals and philosophies of any kind. This does not take away the fact that some of these ideals and philosophies themselves are worthwhile, and people who sincerely strive to live up to them, even if they may not be completely successful at all times, can earn a lot of my respect. I am not Christian and I have fundamental problems with the things they believe, but I sincerely respect a real Christian who lives up to his or her own beliefs in every way. I am not Gorean and I have fundamental problems with the things they believe, but I sincerely respect a real Gorean who truly strives to live by a code of honor that they believe is right for them. The Gor books are no more and no less inspirational fiction than the Bible, so I personally don't care which book someone picks to live by as long as they are truly willing to live by it and not just mouth the words. quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer But I also have respect for the individuals who live their lives according to principles of honor and a philosophy that works sustainably for them - no matter what those principles and philosophies are. Yep, that's what I wrote. Where does that translate to "Everyone who calls themselves Gorean is an honorable person?"

LordODiscipline -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 12:52:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer I thought I was doing an adequate job of pointing out that the majority of people who present as "Gorean" were not particularly trustworthy or honorable, and quite likely to make untruthful claims. Similarly I'd say that in my personal experience, the majority of people who loudly and openly present as "Christian" are either hypocritical liars or sneering, self-righteous bashers or both, and some are outright criminal in their behavior towards people of different lifestyles and belief systems. All this in a religion that supposedly teaches about turning the other cheek and loving your neighbor? *Dislike "Christians" much?* *Not sure how we went there - and, do not really want to know.* *But this is how you presented Goreans with a simplistic explanation which could be read inclusively... (read on)* quote: Homo sapiens isn't a very nice species, and we aren't, in general, much good at living up to ideals and philosophies of any kind. *In a "sub-culture" that disavows 'absolutes' as sincerely 'impossible to live up to' - I find a lot of people holding a lot more people in derission for behavior that is absolutely human....* Sure - point out the individuals hypocracy as they broach it (especially when it is 'in your face') - but, can you really state that they are all "self righteous bashers" while 'self righteously bashing' them with a straight face? quote: This does not take away the fact that some of these ideals and philosophies themselves are worthwhile, and people who sincerely strive to live up to them, even if they may not be completely successful at all times, can earn a lot of my respect. *Completely agreed... I do have a lot of respect for people who strive (not try - but, work at) to live to ideals that they claim they hold.* I just have not seen that evidenced in this thread... I see people defending positions... stating their philosophy in various ways... saying we ought to have more respect for <fill in the blank - as it is both sides whining about this> - but, not demonstrating any reason why anyone would show <fill in the blank> 'respect'. (I am held in contempt and pity for voicing this view I am sure) quote: I am not Christian and I have fundamental problems with the things they believe, *This is the point where children I know would say "Duh!" (with an infleciton on the last non-existent sylable) ;)* quote: ...but I sincerely respect a real Christian who lives up to his or her own beliefs in every way. I am not Gorean and I have fundamental problems with the things they believe, but I sincerely respect a real Gorean who truly strives to live by a code of honor that they believe is right for them. The Gor books are no more and no less inspirational fiction than the Bible, *IMHO the Bible had exceptionally better authors and editors - philosophys not withstanding. quote:* so I personally don't care which book someone picks to live by as long as they are truly willing to live by it and not just mouth the words. *Yup.* quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer But I also have respect for the individuals who live their lives according to principles of honor and a philosophy that works sustainably for them - no matter what those principles and philosophies are. Yep, that's what I wrote. Where does that translate to "Everyone who calls themselves Gorean is an honorable person?" *It may be read as "Goreans tend to stand by the principles they say they follow"... and, that is what I was saying was 'not true'.* ~J

LordODiscipline -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 1:13:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Bull, I am going to say in all sincerity, I am honestly impressed.You have made me rethink my last impression of you. *I agree.* ~J

Kalira -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 1:50:11 PM)
quote: Yeah, they can judge and scorn us because our kink doesn't come from a novel, that's okay. Personally, I find this statement to be highly insulting. And I am not even Gorean. I know quite a few Gorean's in real life, and believe me, they scorn the silly roleplayers more than you do. Those whom you see from the chat rooms are not "LIVING' the philosophy that was put forth in the books; they are role playing. Period. To make a statement like what you made about all Gorean's is to say that your submission is nothing more than bedroom kink.

KatyLied -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 2:06:02 PM)
I answered a broad sweeping insult quote: know as well however, that they judge and scorn you. with a broad sweeping insult, I don't see the problem.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 2:25:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline Dislike "Christians" much? No. I dislike hypocrites of any stripe. I dislike crazy violent people. I dislike people who use their religious beliefs as a club to beat other people over the head with, or as an excuse for criminal violence. I dislike people who try to control other people's sex lives and legally force them to follow bizzare religous taboos whether they believe in that religion or not. As a consequence, there are a lot of people who call themselves Christian whom I dislike a lot. But I would not say that I dislike Christians as a group, even though I disagree with many of their beliefs. I suspect that many of the people I really dislike in this group would not be regarded by most Christians as being particularly good Christians. quote: Sure - point out the individuals hypocracy as they broach it (especially when it is 'in your face') - but, can you really state that they are all "self righteous bashers" while 'self righteously bashing' them with a straight face? I think you're missing a fundamental point here. I don't believe that ALL members of any given group can possibly be described in the same way. Not all Christians are violent fag-bashers, nor are all of them compassionate and charitable. Not all Goreans are truthful and honorable, nor do all of them run around claiming to be elvish ninja masters. I am not bashing any group; I am bashing those individuals within every group who cannot live up to their own principles and promises. quote: IMHO the Bible had exceptionally better authors and editors - philosophys not withstanding. You are welcome to your opinion. IMHO, if you're basing your lifestyle and your beliefs on a book, it doesn't matter much to me which one it is. If you feel that the book is good and inspirational for you, and you choose to live by the principles it is espousing, that's fine with me. What's not fine with me is if you loudly proclaim those principles to others while repeatedly violating them yourself. quote: It may be read as "Goreans tend to stand by the principles they say they follow"... and, that is what I was saying was 'not true'. Nope. That's why I specified that I was talking about individuals who sincerely try to live up to their own personal principles of honor, whatever those principles are.

LordODiscipline -> RE: Showing you are a worthy Master (12/14/2006 3:25:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline Dislike "Christians" much? No. I dislike hypocrites of any stripe. The point I was making is that ----- in this one thread and the few postings we have exchanged where there was no previous mention of "Christians", you decried them about ten times in seperate vehemently made statements. I would say that is a real issue with you. quote: I dislike crazy violent people. I dislike people who use their religious beliefs as a club to beat other people over the head with, or as an excuse for criminal violence. I dislike people who try to control other people's sex lives and legally force them to follow bizzare religous taboos whether they believe in that religion or not. As a consequence, there are a lot of people who call themselves Christian whom I dislike a lot. But I would not say that I dislike Christians as a group, even though I disagree with many of their beliefs. I suspect that many of the people I really dislike in this group would not be regarded by most Christians as being particularly good Christians. This is akin to saying - "I hate purple people - although some of them are good friends..." From what little experience I have had with people, I have discovered that the rationality of those "negative/positive" conjoined statements tends to set people on edge and makes them wonder about the sincerity of the speaker. quote: I think you're missing a fundamental point here. I don't believe that ALL members of any given group can possibly be described in the same way. Not all Christians are violent fag-bashers, nor are all of them compassionate and charitable. Not all Goreans are truthful and honorable, nor do all of them run around claiming to be elvish ninja masters. I am not bashing any group; I am bashing those individuals within every group who cannot live up to their own principles and promises. I really did have that point - I understood that was (more than probably) what you were trying to say - But between the spiels about Chritian 'fag bashing' hypoctitical fundamentalists who do not live up to the book/philosophy they claim to adhere to (paraphrase) and (actually) not making that point directly ---- well - I would be loathe to assume on your intent. quote: quote: IMHO the Bible had exceptionally better authors and editors - philosophys not withstanding. You are welcome to your opinion. IMHO, if you're basing your lifestyle and your beliefs on a book, it doesn't matter much to me which one it is. So under those auspices - Then "Mein Kampf" would be acceptable as a basis for people to go on about their 'beliefs' in your eyes? (Never a skin head about when you need one to pick on)<---to the quasi-illiterate and those without humour... please, understand that this is said in sardonic jest, and not as a reality... I don't make a habit of picking on Skin Heads, as that would be unkind to the poor dears... and, rather improper behavior that might be frowned on in good company. *Personally there are a list of philosophys (based in books) I find either offensive or insulting, poorly defined or amply defined as meaning something I am opposed to...* All books are not created equally - and, I was talking about style - not 'basis for existence' (I did make that clear) And, thank you for allowing the opinion... it was the only one I had at the time and therefore a real find and one I am considering keeping if I can get the upholstery of it to match the veneer I have in the den[;)] quote: If you feel that the book is good and inspirational for you, and you choose to live by the principles it is espousing, that's fine with me. What's not fine with me is if you loudly proclaim those principles to others while repeatedly violating them yourself. I didn't. quote: Nope. That's why I specified that I was talking about individuals who sincerely try to live up to their own personal principles of honor, whatever those principles are. Understood... ~J (edited a billion times to get the freaking 'quotes" in the right spot)

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