RE: Morals without external influence

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marieToo -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 11:48:38 AM)
deleted because I somehow posted it twice.

RiotGirl -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 1:09:58 PM)
I'm trying to figure out how to help with this discussion. I was one of those "extremely well behaved children" Old people loved me. i was taught all the right things and i knew excatly what was right and wrong and how to behave. Unfortunetly, alot of parents dont realise is that the maturity of ones brain lags majorly vs the logical side of ones brain. No matter how big, or intelligent one is - kids really are kids. So i was a great kid. Yet as a teenager - i was a nightmare. While i think the nightmare came about from enviromental factors, some parenting factors and a lack of maturity level to deal with things - it did not come about because i did not know right from wrong. Nightmare. Kicked out of coutnries, catholic schools, boarding schools, and parents houses. Setting peoples hair on fire and starting the career of drugs at the age of 14. Nightmarish, angry, uncontrolloable teenager whose mother was afraid of her. No matter what my parents faults in parenting were or the external factors that created such a catalyst - i am still responsible for all of my actions. No matter how angry i was - i never laid a hand on my mother. Which says nothing about her. When some one LAYS a hand on another - it does not reflect the parents, but the individual. No matter what i did - i always knew right from wrong. It was whether i choose to care about right or wrong. It was whether i chose to follow right or wrong. the boy in question CHOSE to do the wrong thing. No matter whats wrong with him or his issue in life he STILL made the CHOICE. i have no empthay for him. The OP was wrong as well. We are all wrong sometimes and that is a good thing, it is how humans learn. We learn from our mistakes. 17 is old enough to take responsiblity for their own actions. Yet mostly likely too immature to be able to handle things. Sounds like a double bladed sword to me.

marieToo -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 1:37:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl the boy in question CHOSE to do the wrong thing. No matter whats wrong with him or his issue in life he STILL made the CHOICE. I agree. And who should have given him the "tools" he needed to make the best choices? Im not blaming the mother, I dont even know any of these people. I just think unfortunately kids are brought into this world but not raised by responsible people. Or they are raised under poor influences. From my own perspective, if my kid hits me, I'm doing something really really wrong. If I don't know what Im doing wrong, Im going to seek professional help, not ask someone to kick his/her ass. Im not saying pity the kid, or excuse him; Im saying get him real help. Getting slapped around and taught a lesson by someone who is already (admittedly so) a poor example to follow, isn't going to provide much of a learning experience for the kid. Easy to sit and criticize, I know. Easy to give opinions on who did what wrong. Sometimes, I go beyond that and say...."ok what would the solution be or what could have been done differently to keep it from getting to the point it got to?" I would pose a question to any parent who wants to ponder it.... "How much influence do you think you have on the way your children 'turn out'? I would say....in my jersey street tone...."A fuckin shitload". <poor kid, huh?>

yourMissTress -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 1:56:48 PM)
Even the best of parents can have a child that doesn't exemplify their stellar parenting. Good parents teach children the best that they can and hope that the morals and values they tried to instill in their children will guide them well through life. Unfortunately there are a plethora of environmental factors that also influence children, and sometimes parental guidance can't compete with those things. Peers and mass media are two of the biggest that I can think of off hand. Kids experience pressure to be cool and to fit in with their peers. Mass media affects all of us. It desensitizes us to the plight and pain of others and, it degrades the value of human life. If the media can influence adult men and women to the extreme that it does concerning how a woman should look, how powerful are their messages to children? Parents can only control their children to a point and then they have to let go and trust their children to use the tools they've given to them. All of that said, I am usually one of the first people to blame the parents. Parents need to control what their children watch, hear and experience. They need to balance what they do allow their children to see and hear with reality and advise them of the possible dangers and consequences of their actions. They need to instill in their children a sense of character and self-esteem. hops off soap box and tucks it away under her desk

dorsaisgirl1 -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 2:01:58 PM)
all parents make some mistakes becouse all childeren are not the same each one has there own way in witch they need to be handeled i do not know a singel person who would say there parents never made mistakes .becouse we are each human some mistakes are worse then others but in the end each person has to hold themselves acountable it dont mater what your mom or dad did you are in controle of your actions no one else

marieToo -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 2:20:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yourMissTress They need to instill in their children a sense of character and self-esteem. I agree. The sense of character even in its most basic sense should suffice to get our kids through life and at least keep them out of jail. (I hope)

juliaoceania -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 2:29:49 PM)
FR I do not think that parents should be crucified for making mistakes, there is no such thing as a perfect parent, and parents are not responsible for every bad choice their teenager makes. I will say that it seems to me that this mother has made some compounding bad choices. I do not know for sure, but from what I read in the OP I would not make the same ones. I would not bring an adult male into my relationship with my teenager and expect him to "set my kid right", I would not want someone around my son that had a low opinion of him, and I would think that if my child had emotional issues that would be my row to hoe, not someone that is not related to him who has a bad opinion of him. If my child scared me/hit me I would call the police to protect myself, not someone that was prejudiced against him. I would do that to also help my teenager, because when things devolve to a certain level one has to incorporate others to help them.. It does not excuse behavior that someone has anger management issues, depression, or whatever else is going on in their head, but it is not about "blame" when you have a teenager that you love and want to help, it is about finding out what is going on with that kid and helping them. As a mother I would move heaven and hell to help my child over hurdles, and incorporating someone that thinks of him as nothing but a lazy assed loser is NOT helpful, it is harmful.

mistoferin -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 2:36:45 PM)
julia I have to ask....where exactly are you getting these impressions from? The only thing in that post that was said in regards to the mother is that the kid hit her. The post did not say if the mother was present or aware. The post did not say that the mother was a friend or even an acquaintance of the OP. For all we know this kid might have been the kid who mows the OP's lawn and it came up in conversation. We simply have not been given ANY facts about the mother....other than the son hit her. So I do not understand where you are drawing conclusions from. Am I just missing something here?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 2:41:38 PM)
I think it's the fact that the OP is obviously not the child's father, and has a very low opinion of the child and yet was allowed by the mother to lecture and physically hit the child. The fact that the mother allowed this to happen is the main source of impressions on the mother. The fact that she raised a child willing to hit her is also a source of bad impressions, but less so than the others. I could be wrong.

mistoferin -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 2:44:48 PM)
But we don't KNOW that the mother allowed anything. You might all be right in the end....I don't know because my crystal ball isn't working today....but that is not what was said in the post. I just can't imagine that we are making all of these assumptions and judgements without even knowing.

agirl -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 3:01:38 PM)
I can't say I'd be too distraught if one of my sprogs struck out at me physically.......... they have done so with words now and then.........but so have I. If it was part of a general trend I'd be saying * Bye Bye* to the sprog. I wouldn't want anyone throwing muscle around. If the child is lazy, shiftless and stupid.........then it might be an idea for the mother NOT to support his dead arse and ask him to leave? My parenting skills have developed along with each additional child and it took time to see what mattered and what didn't matter so much. Having four sprogs and a couple of sprog's sprogs.......I know that what works for one, won't necessarily for the others. I haven't been a responsible parent continuously, throughout..nor have I been a particularly good parent. I've been adequate most of the time and pretty poor at others. The best I have been able to offer is to be available to them. agirl

juliaoceania -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 3:29:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin But we don't KNOW that the mother allowed anything. You might all be right in the end....I don't know because my crystal ball isn't working today....but that is not what was said in the post. I just can't imagine that we are making all of these assumptions and judgements without even knowing. We only know what was posted, but as a parent I make a few possibly erroneous judgments 1) That the OPer is unable to see through this woman's blouse to determine the nature of the injuries when this kid hit her. 2) this means someone told him about it, I am assuming the mother 3) As a parent myself I am aware of the people that have deep talks with my son about our family matters and how we deal with things 4) I allow no random adult to lecture my child, and I am assuming the mother knows the OPer and knows he lectured her son about his behavior. I have been a single mother that did not live with a mate since my son was an infant and my exhusband and I split. I have had a few men try to tell me how to discipline my son, and if they have a harsher attitude than mine I tended not to stay with those men. Parenting my son is MY responsibility, not anyone else's. There is a short list of people I allow to lecture my kid, and if someone is not on that list they will have a tiger by the tail if they overstep that boundry. If this mother did not know the OPer or that he lectured her kid I would be surprised because of the information within the OP. He seems to know a lot about this kid not to be associated with his mother. My teenager is not perfect by a long shot, but you know what? The person I am currently involved with has only positive things to say about him and my relationship with him, and he respects that..You have on your sigline that there are no victims, only volunteers, and the OP is all about a poor little momma being the victim of her terrible son who is lazy and shiftless. I have a big problem as a mother with that picture, and I am wondering who colored it for the OP, I do not know for sure, but unless the OP comes back and states differently, and because of the information within the OP that only a mother would know, I am betting the mom is the one that painted that picture. I would never betray my son, never in a million years would I give anyone the impression that I thought my son was a loser, and if this mother did do that it explains why the kid has so little respect for her, and it also explains his lack of pride in himself that he would not see it as wrong to hit the woman that gave him life. Like I said, I could be wrong, but we have all jumped to conclusions about people on this board with less information , I view my assumptions as no less valuable than anyone else's

mistoferin -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 3:55:47 PM)
Well that's a whole lot of assuming. Granted, you are entitled to them. Just kind of surprises me coming from someone who is always wanting good, solid, credible data to substantiate an opinion. I certainly didn't get that from the OP nor did I see any information that only a mother could know. I didn't see anything about un-see through blouses or injuries. I'll give ya this though....if it turns out that you have it all pegged....you should call Montel Williams and tell him that you would like to apply for Sylvia Browne's position when she retires because you are damn good.

juliaoceania -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 3:57:30 PM)
So how did he know the kid hit her? That was my point, if he does not know the mom how does he have so much information about the kid? He must be psychic, not me

mistoferin -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 4:04:52 PM)
julia...that's exactly my point. The only point I am trying to make. We DON'T know...because the OP didn't tell us. All of this is just conjecture.

MasterKalif -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 4:07:19 PM)
I had to jump in the fray....at first I was excited it would be an intellectual post regarding Morality and its influence in society and I was getting ready to quote Max Weber....anyways.... I find it amazing that people are asking why the Op had no "respect" for this poor 250 lb 17 yr old kid.....I personally do not respect anyone who hits a woman (punching, etc) specially their own mother....that in my eyes makes him a little punk. Actions speak for themselves here. I do think the OP did wrong to intervene as it is none of his business and this can become a drama, although maybe the kid was beating up his mother badly, which in that case I can understand. I also believe parenting has failed when they are forced to call the police and therapists, parents never need to to do that, they need to get tough, and realize that while America is a democracy, sometimes parenting is not....and lay the rules down dramatically, and clearly..... I also have to say sometimes it is not the failure of parenting that a kid expresses "messed up behavior" but rather the enviroment (who are his or her friends? heros?) and the people around them. A big part of who I am today for better or worse had to do with my friends in high school and college, which luckily although a crazy drunk bunch, were allright. my two cents on this issue.

juliaoceania -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 4:12:26 PM)
I reread the post again for the third time, he knows the kid really well. He has known him for a year, and I would wonder why a mother would encourage this relationship between a 46 year old man and a 17 year old boy, especially one that has a negative view of her son. I just would not allow my son to be hanging out with random 46 year old men that I did not know... perhaps I assume too much, but would you allow your teenage boys to hang out with a man that age, sparring and whatnot with a man that age that you did not know? How would you think of this man if he thought your child was scum (juvenile deliquent, shiftless and lazy)? I would not allow my son to hang out with adult men. I question who he interacts with, I want to know, and I would be very alarmed if a man I did not know was hanging out with him, kick boxing with him, giving him advice over the course of a year... It gave me the impression that this child belonged to a girl friend of the OPer. I did not voice that assumption, thinking they might only be friends, but really, if the OP and the mother are not well acquainted, shouldn't they be?

Mercnbeth -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 4:30:15 PM)
quote: I also believe parenting has failed when they are forced to call the police and therapists, parents never need to to do that, they need to get tough, and realize that while America is a democracy, sometimes parenting is not....and lay the rules down dramatically, and clearly..... Kalif, The problem with that philosophy is that if the OP were only the narrator and the mother was the protagonist, she would likely have been carted off in non-consensual handcuffs. Only if she called without retaliation would the boy have been subject to removal. Those that identify the 17 year old as the victim warranting respect help that process evolve. Beating your replicants shouldn't be the norm, but when hitting a parent can be rationalized appropriate what action would be considered inappropriate? And if you think that isn't a common point of discussion among the high school aged, you haven't been around enough of them. It's come up as a response in casual dinner conversation with others having teenagers. Respect among that age bracket isn't as common as it should be, and threatening parents who try to force behavior is common.

WyrdRich -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 4:36:06 PM)
Gotta love the statute of limitations, the law can't get me, but the nightmares can. I'm not that guy anymore, but his memories travel with me. Some of them, I can rationalize. Were the OP's actions wrong? I'm not going to judge. I probably would have had the punk against the wall, by the throat, as I explained to him that some behaviors are not acceptable. I saw a comment earlier in the thread from a mother saying that if her child struck her in anger, it would be a sign that she had done a poor job as a parent. That is absolutely correct. But then what? Does that absolve him of responsibility? Does Mom just get to sit down and cry until she decides it was somebody else's fault she was a lousy parent and is thus absolved of responsibilty herself? Some sort of correction must be tried before he is loosed upon the world.

MasterKalif -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/6/2006 4:44:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Kalif, The problem with that philosophy is that if the OP were only the narrator and the mother was the protagonist, she would likely have been carted off in non-consensual handcuffs. Only if she called without retaliation would the boy have been subject to removal. Those that identify the 17 year old as the victim warranting respect help that process evolve. Beating your replicants shouldn't be the norm, but when hitting a parent can be rationalized appropriate what action would be considered inappropriate? And if you think that isn't a common point of discussion among the high school aged, you haven't been around enough of them. It's come up as a response in casual dinner conversation with others having teenagers. Respect among that age bracket isn't as common as it should be, and threatening parents who try to force behavior is common. Mercnbeth, good to see you both of you here. I understand that the law prohibits a mother from imposing the law of the land as it should in her own home even, but she has to try....if she had done so starting earlier or been more authoritative, hitting is not necessary....in any case no 17 yr old needs to be defended against an older aging mother specially if he is 250 lbs and he is the danger to her, not the other way around. I think some of these laws need to be changed, it could be my mentality growing up overseas. Not sure what you meant by "Beating your replicants shouldn't be the norm, but when hitting a parent can be rationalized appropriate what action would be considered inappropriate?" perhaps you can elaborate? in terms of your last paragraph you are right! I have heard of parents being threatened when they need to impose themselves, but I think they need to understand who the parents are and that they have (usually with some exceptions obviously) their best interests in mind. I agree also I have not been around teenagers at all....

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